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Frequent Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 141 of 1,448

Yes, Ross. The three organisers turned up but no one else did.

If you talk to politicians they are well aware of the way activists bombard them with rubbish - this whole process is quite unproductive for anti-fluoride activity. Even local body politicians, who are far more gullible, have been turned off by this bombardment and have been pleading with the government to remove the issue from their responsibilities.

You may believe the democratic process is quaint - but it is fundamental in our society. I think it is worse than "quaint" for you to think that democratic expressions must be "forced" from people. To my mind such a characterisation is obscene.

And, no, democratic expression does not rely on "scientific principles or medical ethics" - it relies on the predominant values in the community. That is why I believe such democratic decisions should stand - even when I disagree with the result scientifically, ethically (and no one should vote on science - that relies on facts) or politically. After all, there have been extremely few elections I have been involved in which have resulted in the decision I favored - but to me, the majority decisions are far more important than my own.

I am glad you accept the scientific basis supporting our understanding of man-made climate change - but your description of it as a crisis is not supported to the same degree by any means. The science supporting the safety, effectiveness, and cost-effectiveness of community water fluoridation is far more certain.

You claim that "There are viable oral health alternatives to CWF which have been demonstrated in several countries, including New Zealand, that are safer, more effective, with broader societal coverage and immensely more economical." I would certainly be interested in your presentation of them and the evidence for them so that a proper comparison could be made. Interesting you neglect to do that and I certainly can't think of what you mean.

In the end, health experts have the respoosnbibilty of introducing policies that they consider effective, safe and economical - and also acceptable to the community. I believe that is happening. To a large extent, the range of health actions that are used are complementary and there is no need the put all one's eggs in one basket.

I have already explained my activity on this question - as on my explaining of the science behind climate change and evolution. My critique of religious apologists who justify misrepresentation and distortion of science. Scientific principles never have a use-by date and should always be defended. If you understood that, then you would see what I am doing and your contribution to discussion here would be science-based instead of relying on activist ideology and unsupported attacks on science. Evidence and scientific understanding are the sorts of things I prefer to engage with.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 142 of 1,448

With reference to a presentation by Paul Connett to the New Zealand Parliament last year KenP asserts that no one turned up. However, one of his own blog postings (06/03/2018) records correctly that three Members of Parliament attended.
KenP’s quaint reliance on democratic process to resolve a public health issue involving uncontrolled medical treatment with a neurotoxin by way of a community water supply stands in stark contrast to his self-proclaimed scientific integrity.
In his own city 24,635 citizens determined that 11,768 fellow citizens were forced against their expressed wishes to receive fluoridated water through their household taps. Where are scientific principles or medical ethics here?
There is no doubt about the science under-pinning the escalating climate crisis but there is sufficient science-based growing concern about the total bodily effects of ingested fluoride for an ultra-precautionary approach to be taken on CWF.
There are viable oral health alternatives to CWF which have been demonstrated in several countries, including New Zealand, that are safer, more effective, with broader societal coverage and immensely more economical so I keep wondering why KenP devotes so much of his discretionary research time to bolstering a medical intervention that is well past its use-by date.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 143 of 1,448

Fluoridaton policy is politics pretending to be science. Fluoridation is an immoral medical mandate that poisons people and planet. 

 

It is a symptom of the politicizatin of fluoridation policy that we continue to argue about whether or not a known poison should be considered a nutrient in order to justify using municipal water to dose people.

 

Despite claims by self-appointed experts, the FDA does not list fluoride on its Vitamin and Mineral ChartPer KenP's refusal to respond to questions from BillO and challenge that BillO does his own nutritional research (which BillO has as a dentist with a MPH), see the following  from nutritional experts. KenP claims BillO won't accept anything from him in an effort to devalue BillO, but the fact is that fluoridationists like KenP dismiss all science and opinion that contradicts their fluoridationist point of view.  

 

“Fluoride has no known essential function in human growth and development and no signs of fluoride deficiency have been identified.” - European Food Safety Authority on DRV  (2013)

 

In a discussion that noted that FDA governs fluoride as a drug and that ingestion was associated with “dental fluorosis; bone fracture; reproductive, renal, gastrointestinal, and immunological toxicity; genotoxicity; and carcinogenicity,” the FDA wrote in 1995 that “Accordingly, because there is no consensus on the essentiality of fluoride…. the agency (FDA) is removing fluoride from the RDI list.”  - Federal Register, Vol 60. No. 249, Dec 28, 1995 

 

“It is the responsibility of the nutritionist to help build good teeth, it is the responsibility of the dentist to help prevent dental decay, but it is definitely not the duty of the water companies to practice preventive medicine or dentistry.” - George S. Bratton, technical advisor Anheuser-Busch Inc. (1953)

 

"Many factors can modify the metabolism and effects of fluoride in the organism, such as chronic and acute acid-base disturbances, hematocrit, altitude, physical activity, circadian rhythm and hormones, nutritional status, diet, and genetic predisposition."- Buzalaf  and Whitford in Fluoride Metabolism  (2011)

 

See excerpt from 2019 text on Nutrition by nutritionists which supports the comments of Dr. Richard Sauerheber on this thread. 

Nutrition2019.jpg

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 144 of 1,448

Bill, you are being disrespectful (or worse). I am not the authority to ask questions about dietary uptake of anything - not my field, not my interest.

I would simply look up the appropriate sources to find an answer to your question - and I suggest it would be more efficient for you to do this yourself. After all, I know you will reject any answer you get from me - so why don't you take the pleasure (for you) of rejecting the real experts instead of a chemist without any nutritional training, at all.

 

Conspiracy theorists surely can't get much please from rejecting me - can they?

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 145 of 1,448

Ken,

 

You said, "Heath authorities are not as idiotic as you seem to wish them to be. When considering the introduction of health policies like community water fluoridation, etc., they rightfully consider a range of factors especially total fluoride intake - including dietary intake."

 

In many areas of Public Health, that is true.  However, not with fluoride.

 

Name the "Health authority" (and link) who is responsible for determining the optimal dosage (mg/kg BW/day) of fluoride for humans.

 

You are such a trusting soul.  

 

Perhaps you have not read my questions, but lets make it more simple for you.

 

How much total fluoride is needed to prevent dental caries?

 

You refuse to answer because you don't know, no one does.  

 

The rest of fluoridation is a house of cards, built on a myth of unknown dosage, assumptions of benefit and assumptions of safety.

 

I have no idea why you would cling to such an obsurd concept as fluoridation which has no basis in quality science.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 146 of 1,448

CRITICAL THINKING: Since fluoride is a poison that is known to kill developing tooth cells which cause staining and pitting called 'dental fluorosis' and fluoride accumulates in bones, stresses kidneys, and suppresses thyroid function, the 21st century science documenting disease processes from even low dose exposure to fluoride should prompt an immediate suspension of municipal fluoridation programs. 

 

CIRCULAR REASONING: Since the U.S. government decided fluoridation was 'safe and effective' in 1950, any modern scientific evidence that fluoridation is harmful must be flawed. Consequently,  promoters of fluoridation are justified in using any political actions and social media strategies to suppress science, silence expert opinions and stifle the voices of victims. 

 

In the early 1980s, the EPA was under political pressure to increase the MCL/MCLG of fluoride from 2.4 ppm to 4 ppm. The first step in getting that done was to change the perception of dental fluorosis. The first image is an excerpt from a 1984 MEMO from the Director at the EPA Office of Drinking Water to the Head of the EPA regarding the deception underfoot. Dental fluorosis at that point in time was affecting about 1 in 4 American teens with about 1 in 100 having moderate to severe dental fluorosis. 

 

In 2019, HHS and CDC with partners are involved in the same type of word play. Dental fluorosis is now affecting about half of all American teens, with fluorosis of aesthetic concern affecting at least 1 in 10 per 2015 Cochrane report (2nd image) and 1 in 3 suffering from moderate to severe DF per 2019 analysis of most recent NHANES data (C. Neurath , H. Limeback, B. Osmunson, M. Connett, V. Kanter, and C. R. Wells.  "Dental Fluorosis Trends in US Oral Health Surveys: 1986 to 2012in JDR Clinical and Translational Research. 2019.) 

 

Memo1984EPA.jpgDFperCochrane.jpg

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 147 of 1,448

Indeed it is so true. For example, there are fluoridation promoters all over the internet that are anti-science. This diatribe just presented doesn't even mention that even fluoridationists publish that all cities that fluoridate people have increased incidence of dental fluorosis and that there are no exceptions. Dental fluorosis is an abnormality. It is pathologic, due to systemic fluoride interfering with removal of albumin during enamelization in childhood so that the fluorotic tooth has enamel hypoplasia. This is a laughable joke to some fluoridation promoters, and other fluoridation promoters actually assume that since "fluoride must be good" then enamel fluorosis must be good too and assume that fluorotic teeth have fewer cavities, not realizing the underlying dentin, a derivative of bone, has accumulated fluoride as well and that caries are far more difficult to treat becuase of it. It is all a pretty sick joke, and yet those opoposed to eating and drinking fluoride are the ones claimed to be "anti science.". Wow. .

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Anti-Science Circular Debating Technique

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Message 148 of 1,448

So true Randy.

 

Internet debates every day reinforce my understanding that humans are not a rational species, more a rationalising one.

On the other hand, most of us do tend to respect expert advice and can only take so much conspiracy theory rubbish, In New Zealand, these days most community consultations on community water fluoridation show support for the health policy because people get the message that it is effective, economical and safe.

People have become so fed up with the anti-fluoride activists they do not get an audience these days. Very telling was that when a few anti-fluoride members of the NZ parliament organised a meeting at Parliament Buildings for Paul Connett last year no-one turned up.

On the other hand, while these anti-fluoride campaigners may be tiresome and do misrepresent the science their activity does keep good science on its toes. For example, dredging up poor quality research from areas of endemic fluorosis to argue that fluoride lowers IQ has led to genuine science checking this out in areas where fluoride intake is much lower (as in fluoridated areas). This research has shown no IQ effect.

Similarly, in New Zealand, the intense activity of anti-fluoride campaigners aimed at local body councils led to councils requesting a proper scientific review from authoritative bodies like the Royal Society. That resulted in the NZ Fluoridation Review - see Eason, C., & Elwood, JM. Seymour, Thomson, WM. Wilson, N. Prendergast, K. (2014). Health effects of water fluoridation: A review of the scientific evidence. It also resulted in councils requesting that the government take away responsibility for fluoridation decisions from local bodies and invest it in regional Health Boards.

Personally, I think local communities should have the final say and do not advocate introducing fluoridation where it is not suitable or the community is overwhelmingly opposed. To me democracy is important.

I leave the advocacy of health policies to the health experts. However, as a scientist, I object very strongly to the misrepresentation and distortion of since which is so rampart amongst anti-fluoridationists - as it is amongst climate change deniers and religious apologists (creationism, "intelligent design"). So I will get involved in debates where I see this happening (as it is here).

Finally, I accept that the die-hard anti-science, anti-fluoridation, climate change denying and creationist propagandists will not be convinced by my contributions. But I do not do it for them - my hope is that there are readers lurking in the background who may appreciate clarification of the scientific issues.


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Re: Anti-Science Circular Debating Technique

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Message 149 of 1,448

Randy...you sound exactly like Randy Johnson ...a fluoride lobbyist who is from the American Fluoridation Society. Your president Johnny Johnson appeared at our City Council meeting and lied to our councillors  claiming concentrations in water would still be safe even 16x the levels considered optimal. We have it on tape.

why would anyone believe you or your group?

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 150 of 1,448

I most certainly do not agree with fluoridating people simply because  the water supply is considered hard. Although assimilation  of F would be impaired by the somewhat protective calcium, and these people,would be fortunate to be able to better withstand artificial fluoridation, there is zero benefit for tne action and lifelong it still accumulates F in bone.

In natural areas where 1 ppm F is accompanied with plentiful calcium. dental fluorosis is still rampant and teeth interiors become crumbly (dentist Dr. Heard, Hereford Texas who initially promoted fluoride adjustments in water supplies but later apologized for the notion). The procedure of adding more of the F contaminant into water is mistaken, period.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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