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Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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As a chemist formerly with the Army Corps of Engineers and whistleblower on lead in drinking water, I appreciate chemistry professor Dr. Sauerheber’s contribution to fluoride science  and am disgusted with DavidF’s personal attacks on this forum. AARP should pay attention to science and take a position against fluoridation. 
 
 
Texas is beginning to get the number for the fluoridationists who emphasize ridicule and rhetoric. Fluoridation is harmful to consumers and ethically corrupt. I won’t even use fluoridated water for drinking, bathing, cooking, or even to grow and wash vegetables or water houseplants. Our pets, particularly large dogs given to hip problems, should not be given intentionally contaminated fluoridated water. AARP should  issue a resolution against fluoridation. Seniors are often recommended highly fluoridated toothpaste and prescription drugs and are easily over consuming fluoride.
 
Fluoride is a poison that hurts people, animals, plants and fish.
 
Susan Kanen
Biochemist
 
 

 

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Skanen says, "As a chemist formerly with the Army Corps of Engineers and whistleblower on lead in drinking water, I appreciate chemistry professor Dr. Sauerheber’s contribution to fluoride science  and am disgusted with DavidF’s personal attacks on this forum."

 

Skanen, if you can point out where I made "personal attacks" against Dr. Sauerheber on this forum, I will be happy to apologize to him.  Please show me the quotes along with timestamps.  If you are unable to provide such evidence, I will be forced to conclude that your comment is an unjustified personal attack against me.  We are, after all, evidence based in our worldviews aren't we?  

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Consensus is a political construct that validates there are no substantial objections. There  is and has always been substantial scientific objections to fluoridation. Therefore, there is not now nor has ever been any consensus of safety. 

 

That doesn't stop fluoridationists from trying to use organizational endorsements of policy that originated in the 1950s as their 'evidence' - that's endosemental science. For examples of evidentiary science, then and now, see these two examples that invalidate the claim of consensus: 

 

CartoonLeadBullet.jpg

 

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Removed duplicate comment...

Randy Johnson
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I don't believe in dumping waste water into streams or rivers for any reason. . To me it is immoral and a denigration of our heritage and future. And dumping wastewater that is also fluoridated, and continuing to do so even after salmon spawning, that had been present for years  ends, that's downright mind-boggling. 

The math presented to claim salmon are unaffected when fluoridated water is duschsrged into their spawning grounds is laughable. The water salmon must navigate through near the discharge pipe cannot possibly dilute to a final concentration computed from M1V1=M2V2 (where M1 is 1 ppm, V1 is the discharge volume in a given period, V2 is the volume of river flow during that period, and M2 the final dilution level after thorough mixing. M2 is only valid after full mixing, not while it is mixing.  the concentration in which salmon swim is not simply M2. M2 is the concentration that would exist if the fluoride added were fully dispersed. It is not fully dispersed at the point of discharge. There is no expression that can compute the maximum level that salmon would be exposed to while navigating through the discharge area, particularly since they spawn in shallow water and swim  near the surface to to so. F is not uniform in concentration until after full mixing. 

There is no math that describes it adequately. Math without chemistry in a chemical problem is not useful and in fact misleads. 

If you choose to he misled I can't help you. But if anyone wants to not he misled then this post should help. 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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The claim I don't care is insulting. CalEpa does not care. Unless there is absolute proof which neither i nor anyone has, the agency will not  make any demands on the city of sacramento. Hence  even though evidence of harm is beyond reasonable doubt (esp. published harm to human consumers) fluoridation and the discharges stand. 

Blame me all you want. The salmon industry in CA is dead and humans consuming fluoridated water have progressive compromised bone quality. Registering complaints and providing data are what I have done. And I disagree that it is pathetic. Absolute proof of visible harm with dental fluorosis has not halted fluoridation. Known bone accumulation in all consumers has not halted fluoridation. And neither will good correlative evidence of harm to salmon. Absolute proof sufficient for CalEpa to act is an unreasonable request by the agency and yet this is the way it is for this government advocated policy of fluoridating the country. What blame pray tell in that belongs to me? 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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And since the bone altering fluoridation program is accepted for the presumed benefit to teeth, then salmon collapses are also part of the deal. . 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Most all Californians I know don't care that much to lose local salmon in their diets. We are not like Alaska where many peoples' and animals' sustenance depends on salmon such as many native tribes, orcas, and other marine life. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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I should know something already?

You honestly think that CalEpa has the power to demand the city of sacrmento stop discharging its wastewater into the Sacramento River and to build all new infrastructure to dump it somewhere else? And for some complaining salmon fishing companies?

And you say it's that simple? Be my guest. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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For a city to stop discharging into nearby rivers would cost a veritable fortune to reroute waste through constructed facilities and pipes etc. Once an estabolished practice exists its nearly impossible to get a city to stop. They would rather argue the law, get exemptions, and push papers than to construct all new waste facilities. This is old news. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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In a heartbeat? Please.

Cities have historically discharged treated wastewater into the rivers. That is why no one skis in Needles and why soap suds line the hanks of the colorado river after he discharge pipe. And calepa does absolutely nothing to fight this longstanding city practice  n CA. 

A heartbeat? Come on

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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CalEpa may he tough by some standards but it is not tough when it comes to fluoridation. Most cities near rivers in CA and Nevada dump treated wastewater into  rivers. I've complained but to no avail. Now fluoridatjon makrd the practice more problematic because the sanitizing does not remove fluoride. 

The fact is that CalEpa will do and has done absolutely nothing but support cities that fluoridate   their citizens because nor to do so would be taking on the U. S. CDC. and calepa wont do it. We have tried to get them to for many years. 

 If you think you can achieve something with them then please do so. 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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It is insane that a "river" this small has a discharge tube that dumps the city's sanitized but fluoridated waste water into it. This is what happens when cities let dental officials control what is allowed in public waterways. The late Dr. A. A. Benson said this also, after he learned that San Diego began fluoridating the city even though citizens voted twice against it. Dr. Benson discovered the carbon fixation reaction in plant photosynthesis, the Calvin Benson cycle. He is sorely missed. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Thank you for your input, Carry Anne.  

 

Considering the fact that California has some of the strictest environmental laws in the world, certainly in the United States, and since the State of California is responsible for issuing discharge permits, I was curious about Dr. Sauerheber's concerns regarding discharge from South Sacramento into the Sacramento River.  

 

I would be interested in whether or not he contacted California's Department of Environmental Protection, specifically the DTSC, and what the reply from that department was.  

 

Is there anything objectionable with the question?

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And the EPA and state agencies under it decide maximum contaminant levels for humans .not for salmon. No one knows how much arsenic and lead and other contaminants in combination that are in fluoridation chemicals that are needed before salmon runs collapse. The EPA doesn't have the data to act on fluoridated wastewater for salmon

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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As long as the EPA prohibits discharges of known regulated contaminants, such as arsenic and lead, cities agree to comply. But when it was decided not to prohibit infusions of the fluoride EPA contaminant at an allowed level,  then cities decided on their own how to act. Some allow fluoridation, others dont. The state mandate convinced many to comply. But just like the titanic, passengers followed instructions from the crew but only until it became dangerous and the  it was everyone had to defend oneself and family. Similarly for fluoridation cities must and most do go on their own. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Municipalities are not allowed to write their own discharge permits.  It's that simple. 

 

If there was any evidence that municipal discharge from a fluoridated community posed any threat to the environment, the State would have the authority to shut it down.

 

I gather from your answer that you have not contacted the California Environmental Protection Agency or the DTSC with your grave concerns.  These are some of the toughest environmental agencies in the world, and you haven't taken advantage of them?  

 

Why is that?

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RS, your comment:  "This is what happens when cities let dental officials control what is allowed in public waterways."

 

Cities have nothing to do with it.

 

The State of California issues Discharge Permits.  If you have a concern you should contact the California Environmental Protection Agency.  Specifically, you should contact the DTSC.  You should know this already.  

 

If you do know this, please provide the text of the letter you sent to that office, and I would be interested in seeing the reply that was sent to you.

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This has been a long ongoing problem. The CA DPH and CA Environmental protection agency has accepted what CDC officials have declared, that fluoridation is requested to he done.

Letters from the state EPA repeat what the Federal EPA Office of Water says  Which is they are not responsible for fluoridation but if a city decides to do so they do not prohibit it. The Office of water states that the responsibility lies with the FDA. 

City discharges require a NPDES permit yes. But all cities have their own excuse for discharging fluoridated water. Most say incorrectly that they have the permit but such permits are supposed to be temporary. (for cleaning and maintenance issues for example)   not permanent permits. Some cities argue that fluoride is. A Food and needs no permit. Every city is different. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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