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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 761 of 1,248

The Christian thing to do is to defend the rights of the needy, not to find fault and judge them. 

So my opposition to fluoridating people is an attempt to defend kids, elderly, and in particular the poor who can't afford to buy clean bottled water that has no artificially added fluoride materials.

It is pretty clear to me. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 762 of 1,248

Quote from Dr. S. who said attorney James Deal,  "is very good at organic gardening and believes we need to stop putting wastewater into our rivers and other things I also believe in."

 

Sorry, Richard, I can't seem to find the Organic Gardening section on his Class Action lawsuit website.  The page dedicated strictly to you is easy enough to find . . but organic gardening?  

 

Your quote:  "My credentials from UCSD I cannot change so I don't see the problem. The chemistry department told me I can publish what I want under the  UCSD banner which acknowledges  where I was taught,"

 

Hmm, interesting.  So when I look at this paper written by you, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690253/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract 

and I click on "Author Information," right below your name it says, "Department of Chemistry, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92037, USA"

 

To be clear, you aren't actually employed by the UCSD are you.  They don't actually give you money for anything, do they.  You don't actually work in the Chemistry Department at UCSD, do you.  They don't publish your stuff.  Is that all correct?  

 

You just graduated from there. 

 

This is quite unique, isn't it.  Again, can you provide any example of any other scholar who lists his Alma Mater  under scholarly works as though he is somehow affiliated with that institution? 

 

Here is what I mean by that.  Carl Sagan attended the University of Chicago.  But he worked, he became a Full Professor, at Cornell University in 1970.  So, when we look at Dr. Sagan's work during the time he worked at Cornell, for some odd reason, he doesn't cite the U of C as his affiliation.  He, unlike what you do, cited Cornell, the place where he was employed, the place that funded the research and published his material.  For example:    https://www.mottebooks.com/pages/books/17372/carl-sagan/an-analysis-of-worlds-in-collision-crsr-621

 

That's kind of the norm.  So again, can you cite any scholar who does what you do?  Cites his alama mater on his scholarly works as though he were doing the work for that institution?  

 

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Frequent Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 763 of 1,248

RossF, from the Abstract you presented:

 

"There is evidence that fluoride from an aluminium plant near John Day Dam had a significant negative effect on passage time and survival of adult Pacific salmon Oncorhynchus spp. at the dam."

 

These higher concentrations of discharged fluoride are irrelevant to community water fluoridation.  It's kind of like saying that because pressurized, concentrated levels of oxygen can cause oxygen toxicity, therefore breathing air with the optimal level of oxygen is dangerous and somehow relevant to "anti-oxygen" arguments.  

 

Limnologist Joe Carroll has provided calculations of the effect of community water fluoridation into the Columbia River in Oregon.  This would be relevant to water fluoridation.  You may review his calculations here:  https://ilikemyteeth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Water-Expert-Letter-Fish-Impact-2005.pdf

 

But I thank you for your irrelevant comment.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 764 of 1,248

On fluoride and salmon, the abstract of a paper in the North American Journal of Fisheries Management, 9:154-162, 1989, ‘Evidence for Fluoride Effects on Salmon Passage at John Day Dam, Columbia River, 1982—1986’ by David Damkaer and Dougas Dey of the National Marine Fisheries Service, Northwest Fisheries Center reads:

Abstract.—There is evidence that fluoride from an aluminium plant near John Day Dam had a significant negative effect on passage time and survival of adult Pacific salmon Oncorhynchus spp. at the dam. In 1982, fluoride concentrations of 0.3-0.5 mg/L were recorded at the dam. These concentrations were probably representative of fluoride levels at the dam in earlier years as well, based on the aluminium plant's fluoride discharge records since 1971. From 1980 to 1982, the time (>150 h) required for upstream migrants to pass John Day Dam and the mortality (>50%) of migrants between Bonneville and McNary dams (below and above John Day Dam) were unacceptably high. Bioassay experiments on the behaviour of upstream migrating adult salmon suggested that fluoride concentrations of about 0.5 mg/L would adversely affect migration. Subsequent experiments suggested that 0.2 mg F/L was at or below the threshold for fluoride sensitivity of chinook salmon O. tshawytscha and below the threshold for fluoride sensitivity of coho salmon O. kisutch. Beginning in 1983 and continuing through 1986, fluoride discharges from the aluminium plant were greatly reduced and there was a corresponding drop in fluoride concentrations in the river. Concurrently, fish passage delays and inter-dam losses of adult salmon decreased to acceptable levels (28 h and <5%, respectively).       

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 765 of 1,248

I did not say I hated lawsuits. I said my folks didn't believe that is the way to  settle things but many people do and that is their right. 

James Deal is not t a criminal. So answering his questions is not wrong. 

Sorry to burst your bubble but I find James to be intelligent and very good at organic gardening and he believes we need to stop putting wastewater into our rivers and other things I also believe in.

Again this has nothing to do with the holocaust. 

My credentials from UCSD I cannot change so I don't see the problem. The chemistry department told me I can publish what I want under the  UCSD banner which acknowledges  where I was taught, both undergrad and grad degrees and the school of medicine. 

I've published math articles and physics articles (and on fluoride toxicology while collaborating with Dr. Benson there)  

. I am classified staff at Palomar College and am a private group teacher. Unpublished letters I write list UCSD as where my degrees are from. So? 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Ethical Nonexistence of "Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action"

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Message 766 of 1,248

Carry Anne, thank you for your repetetive and exhaustive quotes.  They never get old do they.  And in only 34 minutes you managed to catch my comment and write all that.  Impressive.  You must sit on this site like a hen sitting on eggs.  More power to you in your attempt to "Demand" that the AARP adapt your fringe position.  

 

Your quote:  

 

"DavidF insultingly uses Josef Mengele's claim that as a scientist he wasn't responsible for the horrific twin experiments he conducted in Nazi concentration camps as a metaphor in a attack of Dr. Sauerheber's response to DavidF's earlier taunt. Dr. Sauerheber said that as a scientist, he focuses on answering questions rather than on lawsuits - that faulty analogy is beyond the pale, even for DavidF and his team of fluoride-trolls."

 

Response:  I'll answer that.  Aside from your inability to read ("uses Josef Mengele's claim that as a scientist he wasn't responsible for the horrific twin experiments he conducted in Nazi concentration camps" - Where did I say that?)  Dr. Sauerheber said, before he edited it, (and the AARP moderator can look at his edits) that he learned the ethics of not suing people from his parents.  He basically said that his aversion to lawsuits was part of his value system.  Yet I see him all over "Fluoride Class Action," a website dedicated to lawsuits.  

 

This tells me that he, as a self-proclaimed scientist, doesn't care about the ethics of those with whom he aligns himself.  He's just there to answer questions at their bidding, even though it might violate his value system.

 

So, if he doesn't care about the ethics of those with whom he aligns himself, he can align himself with anybody, as long as they ask the questions that he "is expected to answer."  

 

He says he hates lawsuits, but he is posted all over a class action lawsuit webpage.  I am opposed to the Nazi Party, and I would never allow anything I have written to be used by them.  But apparantly he would.  He said, "Scientists are supposed to and are expected to answer questions and that is what I have done for Deal and many others who seek to find answers.”

 

Now, Carry Anne, your defense of this guy, who falsely claims affiliation with a university simply because he graduated from there, and who doesn't care about the ethics of those who use his work, says more about you and your desperation to convince the AARP to align themselves with your fringe, scare-mongering position than it does about those so-called "fluoride-trolls" who see you for what you are and call you out for what you are. 

 

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Ethical Violations: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 767 of 1,248

“In no case should a collective community agreement or the consent of a community leader or other authority substitute for an individual’s informed consent.” - UNESCO documents on Medical Consent in Bioethics and Human Rights, Article 6 (2010)

 

“The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential ... The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity ... During the course of the experiment the human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end if he has reached the physical or mental state where continuation of the experiment seems to him to be impossible." - Nuremberg Code (1947)

 

Fluoridation was conceived as a human experiment in the 1940s. It has never been proven efficacious, effective or safe. Yet, in spite of dozens of human studies and hundreds of laboratory experiments documenting low dose harm to vulnerable populations which include pregnant women & their fetuses, bottle-fed babies & young children, the elderly and any with chronic illness like kidney, thyroid, autoimmune or endocrine diseases, fluordidationists insist 'we need more study' before stopping this fluoridation experiment - even when the studies document neurotoxic harm to babies in the womb (Bashash et al. 2017; Thomas et al. 2018)  

 

  • Fluoridation is a human rights violation. It is a bioethical wrong that denies individual medical consent and causes harms to millions of vulnerable consumers which is the exact reason why  AARP should write a resolution in opposition to fluoridation policy

 

DavidF insultingly uses Josef Mengele's claim that as a scientist he wasn't responsible for the horrific twin experiments he conducted in Nazi concentration camps as a metaphor in a attack of Dr. Sauerheber's response to DavidF's earlier taunt. Dr. Sauerheber said that as a scientist, he focuses on answering questions rather than on lawsuits - that faulty analogy is beyond the pale

 

Quotes2017.jpg

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 768 of 1,248

RS:  “I don't work for James Deal and never have, so the extrapolations you claim are not correct.”

 

And:  “My interaction with Deal is the same as my interaction with this AARP site and with anyone else who asks me for information. Scientists are supposed to and are expected to answer questions and that is what I have done for Deal and many others who seek to find answers.”

 

Response:  I never said you did work for him.  But you certainly contribute to his Fluoride Class Action website.  And for somebody who says he is fundamentally opposed to lawsuits, I find this very strange. 

 

Let me try to provide an example to illustrate what I am saying.  Josef Mengele was a scientist who did research on twins.  He was, as you said, “supposed to and are expected to answer questions.”  He had no problem supplying those answers to the people for whom he worked. 

 

You say you are fundamentally opposed to lawsuits, but you contribute to the Class Action website.  That’s fine.  You are saying that as a scientist you simply answer questions, post papers on his website, even papers about Relativity, because you don’t care about his ethics, you are simply answering questions.  If that’s the case, you wouldn’t have minded working alongside Dr. Mengele, because you don’t care about politics or ethics, or who uses your work, or for what purpose. 

 

I think you aren’t fundamentally opposed to lawsuits.  Either that or you’re one of the biggest hypocrites I’ve ever encountered.  How much money did you say Deal has collected from gullible clients that you spend your time frightening?  And how many lawsuits has he won for them? 

 

RS:  “Also I don't teach at UCSD and only am afifliated with the campus now through the alumni association.” 

 

Response:  They don’t pay you anything, do they.  You offer tutorial services, but you are not listed with the Office of Academic Support and Instructional Services. 

 

But you are affiliated with them because you graduated from UCSD.  In that case, I must be affiliated with Central Michigan University, because I graduated from there.  Am I also affiliated with my high school?  I’ve never heard of a scholar listing as an affiliation a university from which he graduated, have you?  If so, please provide an example of one.  Does UCSD know that you claim to be affiliated with them on your scholarly work? 

 

RS:  “So I have spent most of my free time the last 11 years petitioning the FDA to ban fluoridation for the country. The peitition is still under review (submitted 2011).  The Agency now is divided on whether they should ban it or simply leave it as is . . “

 

Response:  That is a complete lie.  As you know, the FDA has no jurisdiction over water fluoridation, other than fluoridated bottled water.  As you also know, a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was agreed upon between the EPA & the FDA in 1979 which placed water fluoridation under the jurisdiction of the EPA. 

 

You are digging yourself in deeper and deeper. 

 

RS:  “The oxygen levels in the; Colorado River downstream of Laughlin that discharges sterilized city wastewater directly into the river are substantially lower because of the discharges.”

 

Response:  Then doesn’t it make sense that oxygen levels downstream of the Sacramento discharge point would also be lowered?  And wouldn’t this also affect salmon returns, since salmon & trout require high levels of dissolved oxygen?  But you say you have looked at all factors and it must be fluoride  .  .  .  Ah, but then you can’t frighten people into giving money to a lawyer who says he will sue BOD loading into rivers, can you. 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 769 of 1,248

The oxygen levels in the; Colorado River downstream of Laughlin that discharges sterilized city wastewater directly into the river are substantially lower because of the discharges. But the EPA ruled that since there is no clear level at which a minimum has been set that whatever the level measures at the Mexico border, that is the level that the EPA will recognize as the allowed level.

This twisted thinhking course does not consider the role oxygen deficiency plays in controlling the flora and fauna in the river. My complaints to the Colorado River Board were overturned because an agreeemnt withLaughlin had already been made before I found the emissions were accumulaitng soap suds along the banks below the discharge pipe.  So studying a situation and describing the truth don't usually make a hill of beans difference to political systems that are already pre-decided. Laughlin continues to discharge into the river even though water skiing is dead south of the pipe, and Sacramento continues to discharge fluoridated waste water regardless of the fact that salmon are highly sensitive to fluoride. Whatever the oxygen levels have been in the river, fluoride waste on top of that has its own contribution to the poor health of the river.  

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 770 of 1,248

I don't work for James Deal and never have, so the extrapolations you claim are not correct.  Also I don't teach at UCSD and only am afifliated with the campus now through the alumni association. My direct collaborative work with Dr. Benson at UCSD ended when he passed away last year. I teach at Palomar and have students who are swamped with work. Interest and desire are far different than actually carrying out a project especially when the racehorse 7 year study that was published has not caused the city of L.A. to even consider halting fluoridation. A city mayor in Australia who supports fluoridation of people was given the study and remarked that "we don't have horses in our town so who cares?"

This is not "defeatist" as earlier claimed. It is simplly pragmatic. The reasons to halt fluoridation that are proven without doubt are already compelling and need to be described. We don't need more proof of harm for fluoridation promoters to ignore.

My interaction with Deal is the same as my interaction with this AARP site and with anyone else who asks me for information. Scientists are supposed to and are expected to answer questions and that is what I have done for Deal and many others who seek to find answers. 

One impact that was successful (which is very rare in the fluoridation industry) was to place the racehorse artricle on file at the Rancho Santa Fe Water District since this town has a horse population as high as the population of people. They know how to take care of horses there. The District officials told me they have no interest in fluoridation because most all their customers own horses.  Since this city operates the water treatment plant in the region, this spares from fluoridation all cities downline including Fairbanks Ranch, Solana Beach, Cardiff, old Encinitas, and Leucadia. Furthermore, one of my chemisry student's father is the chief breeder of horses for Los Alamitos. When he read the paper the word got out to the racing office at the track and soon after track officials halted purchasing L.A. city fluoridaed water and they only rely on well water. 

But victories like this are otherwise relatively nonexistent. So I have spent most of my free time the last 11 years petitioning the FDA to ban fluoridation for the country. The peitition is still under review (submitted 2011).  The Agency now is divided on whether they should ban it or simply leave it as is where fluoride infusions were already ruled as being an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug. The FDA stands by that ruling, so getting the Agency to go farther than that is difficult (and certainly a time-stealing endeavor).  

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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