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Environmental References & Sinful Trolls: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
“The controversy about fluoridation was inevitable because fluoridation was, in a real sense, conceived in sin. Fluoride is a major waste product of industry and one of the most devastating pollutants of the aluminum industry. The government not only dismissed the danger and left industry free to pollute, but it has promoted the intentional addition of fluoride - most of which is recycled industrial waste - to the nation’s drinking water.” - Prof. Albert Schatz (1995)
DavidF last comment, per usual, is not only not factual but also uses a mix of logical fallacies in order to achieve his goal of burrying useful information under a mountain of rhetoric.
The purpose of this forum thread started in February 2015 that had 60 supportive comments from about 20 seniors prior to the troll invasion is to share personal testimony and advocate for a ban on fluoridation. The fluoride 'rapid response' team that overhelmed the thread in June 2018 has disrupted the conversation with flights into every possible distraction, one of which was arguing over environmental harm (another about Einstein's theories). RossF responded to the environmental issue first with an appropriate abstract documenting that yes, U.S. National Marine Fisheries Services knew in 1980s that salmon are harmed at fluoride concentrations of 0.5 ppm.
DavidF's reply that attacked RossF misrepresented a reply that provided 23 affadavits on harm from 1993 (not the 1960s) which included one from a lawyer who said he did NOT accept the client's word of fluoride poisoning, but was subsequently provided with the medical report from his client's physician that indeed, it was well documented that some people including the client, Mr. Riggins, are harmed by fluoridation. The lawyer reported that those client medical records struck a chord in him regarding his own health issues. In addition to the 1993 affadavits from doctors, scientists and lawyers that attested to human harm from fluoridation, this forum includes personal testimony of harm which David ignores, including mine.
But as to environmental harm from fluoridation which at least is relevant if a little off topic, since I can't find my earlier comment with a list of a dozen environmental citations on harm cause plants & animals due to fluoridation waste water, here they are again (I have more):
- Mullenix PJ. A new perspective on metals and other contaminants in fluoridation chemicals. International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health. 2014 Apr-Jun;20(2):157-66. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24999851
- Camargo, J.A. 2003. Fluoride toxicity to aquatic organisms: a review. Chemosphere, 50:251-264. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12656244
- Pacific Northwest Pest Management Handbook (2018) “Fluorine Toxicity in Plants” by J.W. Pscheidt, Extension Plant Pathology Specialist, OSU. https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/pathogen-articles/nonpathogenic-phenomena/fluorine-toxicity-pl...
- Karina Caballero-Gallardo, Jesus Olivero-Verbel and Jennifer L. Freeman. (2016) Toxicogenomics to Evaluate Endocrine Disrupting Effects of Environmental Chemicals Using the Zebrafish Model. Current Genomics. 17:6. 515-527.
- Jianjie C Wenjuan X, Jinling C, Jie S, Ruhui J, Meiyan L. Fluoride caused thyroid endocrine disruption in male zebrafish (Danio rerio). Aquat Toxicology. 2016 Feb;171:48-58.
- Huan Zuo. Liang Chen. Ming Kong. et al. Toxic effects of fluoride on organisms. Life Sciences. Volume 198, 1 April 2018, Pages 18-24.
- AW Burgstahler, RF Freeman, PN Jacobs. Toxic effects of silicofluoridated water in chinchillas, caimans, alligators, and rats held in captivity. Research report. Fluoride 41(1)83–88 January-March 2008. http://www.fluorideresearch.org/411/files/FJ2008_v41_n1_p083-088.pdf
- Maas RP, Patch SC, Christian AM, Coplan MJ. Effects of fluoridation and disinfection agent combinations on lead leaching from leaded-brass parts. Neurotoxicology. 2007 Sep;28(5):1023-31. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17697714
- Richard G Foulkes & Anne C Anderson. Research Review: Impact of Artificial Fluoridation on Salmon Species in the Northwest USA and British Columbia, Canada. Fluoride Vol.27 No.4 220-226 1994. Included: http://fluoridation.com/enviro.htm
- Kausik M and Sumit N. Fluoride Contamination on Aquatic organisms and human body at Purulia and Bankura District of West Bengal, India. Bull. Env. Pharmacology. Life Sci., Vol 4  June 2015: 112-114. http://bepls.com/june2015bepls/18.pdf
- Sauerheber R. Physiologic Conditions Affect Toxicity of Ingested Industrial Fluoride. Journal of Environmental and Public Health. 2013:439490. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690253/
- Sauerheber R. Disabled Horses: Racehorse Breakdown and Artificially Fluoridated Water in Los Angeles. Fluoride 46(4)170–179 October-December 2013. http://www.academia.edu/6508850
Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
Thanks Ross. This is a great example of what they call “Gish Galloping.” You had originally brought up an incident about an aluminum plant which had harmed the environment with discharge into a river. You saw the word “Fluoride” and therefore, in your mind, it must be a valid argument against Community Water Fluoridation, and you presented it as such.
After I pointed out that this factual incident was completely irrelevant to optimally fluoridated water, rather than attempt to defend your comment, you simply move on to a bunch of other arguments which also have the word “Fluoride” in them.
Ok, the 2006 NRC. There is nothing in that report which says drinking optimally fluoridated water is harmful to anyone. If there is, I’d like to see it. (It’s nice to say stuff, but it’s better when you can actually prove it.)
To the contrary. Dr. John Doull was the Chair of that committee. This is his quote: “"I do not believe there is any valid scientific reason for fearing adverse health conditions from the consumption of water fluoridated at the optimal level." https://ilikemyteeth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Doull-Email-on-CWF-March-2013.pdf
He was asked about it, and that’s what he said. So, again, please show me where, in the 2006 NRC, that committee agreed with anything you just said. Just because it may have appeared in some junk literature doesn’t mean the NRC agreed with it.
You bring up Grandjean & Choi and “A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis.” Question: Do you even know what that was, or are you just parroting anti-CWF propaganda that you read somewhere?
What we are talking about here is a Review of 27 non-peer-reviewed papers that came from Central Asia & China, Mongolia, Iran, etc. In China, atmospheric fluoride levels are as much as 100 times higher than they are in the U.S. In other places in Asia, fluoride levels in water are higher than 33 times the optimal level. In other words, we are talking about what might happen from high levels of environmental fluoride exposure.
But you saw the word “Fluoride,” therefore, somehow this is relevant to Community Water Fluoridation.
Anna Choi herself said, “These results do not allow us to make any judgment regarding possible levels of risk at levels of exposure typical for water fluoridation in the U.S.,” the researchers said in an e-mail response to questions from The Eagle. https://www.kansas.com/news/article1098857.html
And you brought up a study from Mexico, where, again, Community Water Fluoridation is not practiced.
And you bring up the “Precautionary Principle” (which you have parroted perfectly. You say, “The precautionary principle states that if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public domain (affecting general health or the environment globally), the action should not be taken in the absence of scientiﬁc near-certainty about its safety.”
Ok, in that case all transportation should end immediately, since millions more people are harmed and killed from automobiles & air travel than have ever been harmed by drinking optimally fluoridated water. . there is harm to the global environment from mass transportation. Or are you going to be hypocritical about this & say, ‘No, I need my car.’
You also say, “The precautionary principle is intended to deal with uncertainty and risk in cases where the absence of firm evidence and the incompleteness of scientiﬁc knowledge carries potentially serious implications for society.”
I don’t know what kind of “firm evidence” you are asking for. Since hundreds of millions of people drink this stuff every day, they have been for over 70 years now, and there has never been one documented case of any human being who was ever harmed in any way from drinking optimally fluoridated water . . even for as much as a lifetime.
There has never been one other study which has looked at so many people over so great a time span. So, just what kind of "firm evidence" are you looking for?
I asked another writer on this AARP webpage for even one documented example of harm, and the best she could come up with was a sworn affidavit from 1968 in which a lawyer diagnosed himself because one of his clients, who also diagnosed himself, wanted to sue the EPA.
But again, I thank you for all of your irrelevant comments and I look forward to the next batch of gish galloping from you.
Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
DavidF references an April 2005 letter from Joe Carroll and highlights “…we have numerous supported and documented examples that demonstrate the excellent health value in community drinking water fluoridation . . . “.
A year from that Carroll letter the major National Research Council report ‘Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards’ (2006) provided evidence that endocrine systems and thyroid functions are impaired at exposure levels to fluoride below the consumption levels expected from drinking what is described as optimally fluoridated water.
NRC (2006) also says that kidney patients and diabetics are susceptible subpopulations that are particularly vulnerable to harm from ingested fluorides as low as 1ppm concentration.
The U.S. National Kidney Foundation says that kidney patients should be notified of the potential risk of fluoride exposures.
NRC (2006) also states that fluorides accumulate over time in the pineal gland but at the time of the report, whether fluoride exposure causes decreased nocturnal melatonin production or altered circadian rhythm of melatonin production in humans had not been investigated.
As a calcifying tissue that is exposed to a high volume of blood flow, the pineal gland is a major target for fluoride accumulation in humans with the calcified parts of the pineal gland containing the highest fluoride concentrations in the human body - higher than either bone or teeth.
The 2006 report did, however, state that fluoride is likely to cause decreased melatonin production and to have other effects on normal pineal function, which in turn could contribute to a variety of effects in humans.
Grandjean and Landrigan in their paper ‘Neurobehavioural eﬀects of developmental toxicity’ in the March 2014 issue of the The Lancet stated that epidemiological studies since 2006 had identified fluoride as a developmental neurotoxicant i.e. a chemical that can injure the developing brain. They warned that untested chemicals should not be presumed to be safe to brain development and that chemicals in existing use, like fluoride, and all new chemicals must therefore be tested for developmental neurotoxicity.
Choi et al. in their Environmental Health Perspectives paper ‘Developmental Fluoride Neurotoxicity: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis’ showed results that supported the possibility of an adverse effect of fluoride exposure on children’s neurodevelopment and that future research should include detailed individual-level information on prenatal exposure adn neurobehavioral performance.
A recent study, Bashash et al. ‘Prenatal Fluoride Exposure and Cognitive Outcomes in Children at 4 and 6–12 Years of Age in Mexico’ published last September in the peer-reviewed journal, Environmental Health Perspectives, by a team of investigators at the University of Toronto, McGill, the Harvard School of Public Health, and other institutions found an association between prenatal exposure to fluoride and cognitive development disorders in children.
In this study, higher prenatal fluoride exposure, in the general range of exposures reported for other general population samples of pregnant women and non-pregnant adults, was associated with lower scores on tests of cognitive function in the offspring at age 4 and 6–12 years.
The study’s findings, combined with evidence from existing animal and human studies, reinforce the need for additional research on potential adverse effects of fluoride, particularly in pregnant women and children, and to ensure that the benefits of population-level fluoride supplementation outweigh any potential risks.
The precautionary principle states that if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public domain (affecting general health or the environment globally), the action should not be taken in the absence of scientiﬁc near-certainty about its safety. The burden of proof about absence of harm falls on those proposing an action, not those opposing it.
The precautionary principle is intended to deal with uncertainty and risk in cases where the absence of firm evidence and the incompleteness of scientiﬁc knowledge carries potentially serious implications for society.
AARP members will be interested to know that the independent Cochrane Collaboration, which provides high-quality information informing decisions on health issues, found that searching for ‘before and after’ studies did not ﬁnd any on the beneﬁts of ﬂuoridated water for adults.
Fluoridation of community water fluoridation is well outdated. There are safer, more effective and cheaper ways of implementing sound community oral health programmes.
Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
The Christian thing to do is to defend the rights of the needy, not to find fault and judge them.
So my opposition to fluoridating people is an attempt to defend kids, elderly, and in particular the poor who can't afford to buy clean bottled water that has no artificially added fluoride materials.
It is pretty clear to me.
Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
Quote from Dr. S. who said attorney James Deal, "is very good at organic gardening and believes we need to stop putting wastewater into our rivers and other things I also believe in."
Sorry, Richard, I can't seem to find the Organic Gardening section on his Class Action lawsuit website. The page dedicated strictly to you is easy enough to find . . but organic gardening?
Your quote: "My credentials from UCSD I cannot change so I don't see the problem. The chemistry department told me I can publish what I want under the UCSD banner which acknowledges where I was taught,"
Hmm, interesting. So when I look at this paper written by you, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690253/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
and I click on "Author Information," right below your name it says, "Department of Chemistry, University of California, San Diego, La Jolla, CA 92037, USA"
To be clear, you aren't actually employed by the UCSD are you. They don't actually give you money for anything, do they. You don't actually work in the Chemistry Department at UCSD, do you. They don't publish your stuff. Is that all correct?
You just graduated from there.
This is quite unique, isn't it. Again, can you provide any example of any other scholar who lists his Alma Mater under scholarly works as though he is somehow affiliated with that institution?
Here is what I mean by that. Carl Sagan attended the University of Chicago. But he worked, he became a Full Professor, at Cornell University in 1970. So, when we look at Dr. Sagan's work during the time he worked at Cornell, for some odd reason, he doesn't cite the U of C as his affiliation. He, unlike what you do, cited Cornell, the place where he was employed, the place that funded the research and published his material. For example: https://www.mottebooks.com/pages/books/17372/carl-sagan/an-analysis-of-worlds-in-collision-crsr-621
That's kind of the norm. So again, can you cite any scholar who does what you do? Cites his alama mater on his scholarly works as though he were doing the work for that institution?
Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
RossF, from the Abstract you presented:
"There is evidence that fluoride from an aluminium plant near John Day Dam had a significant negative effect on passage time and survival of adult Pacific salmon Oncorhynchus spp. at the dam."
These higher concentrations of discharged fluoride are irrelevant to community water fluoridation. It's kind of like saying that because pressurized, concentrated levels of oxygen can cause oxygen toxicity, therefore breathing air with the optimal level of oxygen is dangerous and somehow relevant to "anti-oxygen" arguments.
Limnologist Joe Carroll has provided calculations of the effect of community water fluoridation into the Columbia River in Oregon. This would be relevant to water fluoridation. You may review his calculations here: https://ilikemyteeth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Water-Expert-Letter-Fish-Impact-2005.pdf
But I thank you for your irrelevant comment.
Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
On fluoride and salmon, the abstract of a paper in the North American Journal of Fisheries Management, 9:154-162, 1989, ‘Evidence for Fluoride Effects on Salmon Passage at John Day Dam, Columbia River, 1982—1986’ by David Damkaer and Dougas Dey of the National Marine Fisheries Service, Northwest Fisheries Center reads:
Abstract.—There is evidence that fluoride from an aluminium plant near John Day Dam had a significant negative effect on passage time and survival of adult Pacific salmon Oncorhynchus spp. at the dam. In 1982, fluoride concentrations of 0.3-0.5 mg/L were recorded at the dam. These concentrations were probably representative of fluoride levels at the dam in earlier years as well, based on the aluminium plant's fluoride discharge records since 1971. From 1980 to 1982, the time (>150 h) required for upstream migrants to pass John Day Dam and the mortality (>50%) of migrants between Bonneville and McNary dams (below and above John Day Dam) were unacceptably high. Bioassay experiments on the behaviour of upstream migrating adult salmon suggested that fluoride concentrations of about 0.5 mg/L would adversely affect migration. Subsequent experiments suggested that 0.2 mg F/L was at or below the threshold for fluoride sensitivity of chinook salmon O. tshawytscha and below the threshold for fluoride sensitivity of coho salmon O. kisutch. Beginning in 1983 and continuing through 1986, fluoride discharges from the aluminium plant were greatly reduced and there was a corresponding drop in fluoride concentrations in the river. Concurrently, fish passage delays and inter-dam losses of adult salmon decreased to acceptable levels (28 h and <5%, respectively).
Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
I did not say I hated lawsuits. I said my folks didn't believe that is the way to settle things but many people do and that is their right.
James Deal is not t a criminal. So answering his questions is not wrong.
Sorry to burst your bubble but I find James to be intelligent and very good at organic gardening and he believes we need to stop putting wastewater into our rivers and other things I also believe in.
Again this has nothing to do with the holocaust.
My credentials from UCSD I cannot change so I don't see the problem. The chemistry department told me I can publish what I want under the UCSD banner which acknowledges where I was taught, both undergrad and grad degrees and the school of medicine.
I've published math articles and physics articles (and on fluoride toxicology while collaborating with Dr. Benson there)
. I am classified staff at Palomar College and am a private group teacher. Unpublished letters I write list UCSD as where my degrees are from. So?
Re: Ethical Nonexistence of "Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action"
Carry Anne, thank you for your repetetive and exhaustive quotes. They never get old do they. And in only 34 minutes you managed to catch my comment and write all that. Impressive. You must sit on this site like a hen sitting on eggs. More power to you in your attempt to "Demand" that the AARP adapt your fringe position.
"DavidF insultingly uses Josef Mengele's claim that as a scientist he wasn't responsible for the horrific twin experiments he conducted in Nazi concentration camps as a metaphor in a attack of Dr. Sauerheber's response to DavidF's earlier taunt. Dr. Sauerheber said that as a scientist, he focuses on answering questions rather than on lawsuits - that faulty analogy is beyond the pale, even for DavidF and his team of fluoride-trolls."
Response: I'll answer that. Aside from your inability to read ("uses Josef Mengele's claim that as a scientist he wasn't responsible for the horrific twin experiments he conducted in Nazi concentration camps" - Where did I say that?) Dr. Sauerheber said, before he edited it, (and the AARP moderator can look at his edits) that he learned the ethics of not suing people from his parents. He basically said that his aversion to lawsuits was part of his value system. Yet I see him all over "Fluoride Class Action," a website dedicated to lawsuits.
This tells me that he, as a self-proclaimed scientist, doesn't care about the ethics of those with whom he aligns himself. He's just there to answer questions at their bidding, even though it might violate his value system.
So, if he doesn't care about the ethics of those with whom he aligns himself, he can align himself with anybody, as long as they ask the questions that he "is expected to answer."
He says he hates lawsuits, but he is posted all over a class action lawsuit webpage. I am opposed to the Nazi Party, and I would never allow anything I have written to be used by them. But apparantly he would. He said, "Scientists are supposed to and are expected to answer questions and that is what I have done for Deal and many others who seek to find answers.”
Now, Carry Anne, your defense of this guy, who falsely claims affiliation with a university simply because he graduated from there, and who doesn't care about the ethics of those who use his work, says more about you and your desperation to convince the AARP to align themselves with your fringe, scare-mongering position than it does about those so-called "fluoride-trolls" who see you for what you are and call you out for what you are.
Ethical Violations: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action
“In no case should a collective community agreement or the consent of a community leader or other authority substitute for an individual’s informed consent.” - UNESCO documents on Medical Consent in Bioethics and Human Rights, Article 6 (2010)
“The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential ... The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity ... During the course of the experiment the human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end if he has reached the physical or mental state where continuation of the experiment seems to him to be impossible." - Nuremberg Code (1947)
Fluoridation was conceived as a human experiment in the 1940s. It has never been proven efficacious, effective or safe. Yet, in spite of dozens of human studies and hundreds of laboratory experiments documenting low dose harm to vulnerable populations which include pregnant women & their fetuses, bottle-fed babies & young children, the elderly and any with chronic illness like kidney, thyroid, autoimmune or endocrine diseases, fluordidationists insist 'we need more study' before stopping this fluoridation experiment - even when the studies document neurotoxic harm to babies in the womb (Bashash et al. 2017; Thomas et al. 2018)
- Fluoridation is a human rights violation. It is a bioethical wrong that denies individual medical consent and causes harms to millions of vulnerable consumers which is the exact reason why AARP should write a resolution in opposition to fluoridation policy
DavidF insultingly uses Josef Mengele's claim that as a scientist he wasn't responsible for the horrific twin experiments he conducted in Nazi concentration camps as a metaphor in a attack of Dr. Sauerheber's response to DavidF's earlier taunt. Dr. Sauerheber said that as a scientist, he focuses on answering questions rather than on lawsuits - that faulty analogy is beyond the pale,
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