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Examine the Evidence

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Message 351 of 1,450

CarryAnne – You have a remarkable ability for embracing double-standards.   You question Ken Perrott’s credentials and his decision to wade into the anti-science quagmire you created. And yet, I have never seen you provide any of your own credentials.

 

Do you have any credentials besides a substantial aptitude to copy/paste?   All you have ever done in this comment section is copy/paste standard anti-F propaganda – including nonsensical images (like those of Ken in an apparently deleted previous post), quotes supporting your opinions from various anti-science sources, and excerpts from studies that have been “adjusted” to fit your agenda (example below).

 

Describe your scientific &/or health care training and experience so those reading your remarkably extensive comments will have a context to assess your opinions?

 

You didn’t just misinterpret Ken’s profile “to include pesticides” as you noted, You also misinterpreted and fabricated Ken’s expertise to claim his “job was to develop fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides” (neither fluoride-intensive fertilizers nor pesticides was listed), but you also selectively extracted four of the seven skills in his profile to display. (02-19-2019 04:44 PM) I think I can see where you got confused though – In Ken’s profile the words Chemistry, Fluoridation and Fertilizers were close to each other, and it would be extremely easy to construct the phrase “fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides

 

KenP.jpg

 

Has anyone involved in agriculture ever tried to develop “fluoride-intensive fertilizers”? It appears you are exhibiting quite a talent for fantasy. Would you explain why that would be a product anyone would develop? You provide another excellent example of how anti-science activists (ASAs) not only read what they wish to see, they fabricate their “reality” to reflect their inflexible opinions and beliefs.

 

If you have actually read the fluoridation studies “in full” as you claim, it is almost certain that you have read them all (and interpreted them all) through the same anti-science filter you used to evaluate and describe Ken’s job and background – and that example didn’t even require any understanding of science.

 

You claimed (02-19-2019 06:42 PM) “This is the place for American seniors to discuss their health issues & concerns in a 'safe environment in easy to understand language' and to engage with AARP as to the policy and advocacy these American seniors would like to see AARP pursue with our U.S. government.”

 

I am an American Senior, and there is no place, particularly in an AARP discussion forum, for anecdotal discussions about “health issues and concerns” with a specific agenda that is not particularly well disguised by your discussion title, “Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action”. If there was any legitimate evidence supporting concerns that the “health issues” you and your “American seniors” believe were caused by community water fluoridation, you should engage with the scientific and health communities to change the scientific consensus. That is how science progresses – by providing legitimate evidence to the scientific community – not discussing personal, self-diagnosed health issues like you described in you “story” (below).

 

I have read around 200 of your comments in this thread, and Ken is correct in his assessment that “Yes, I see you download citations and make claims about them - in bulk. But no discussion.”

 

Your “references” consist of nothing but citations and what you consider relevant quotes – which are frequently taken out of context – as demonstrated in the US Public Health Service example referenced below (A).

 

Also, I thought you might be interested in contacting another very active anti-science activist, Karen Spencer, who spends considerable time on the Internet fighting against the scientific consensus and constructing threatening letters to health organizations like the American Thyroid Association referenced below (B) “suggesting” they stop supporting fluoridation or face a lawsuit. I am sure she has absolutely no relationship to you, but your stories – publically provided by both of you – are very similar to each other, so you might want to consider reaching out since you might be interested in her lack of concern for public health and employment of disingenuous anti-science tactics.

 

CarryAnne ‎07-07-2018 04:49 PM
https://community.aarp.org/t5/Brain-Health/Fluoride-Demand-AARP-Take-Action/m-p/2024156#M767

My Story (summarized):

  • As a pregnant woman, I almost lost my child when my city began fluoridation.
  • As a young woman, I experienced rashes, arthritis and gastrointestinal conditions that were untreatable.
  • As a senior, I experienced chronic kidney pain and a liver crisis that scared me into abandoning my water filter in favor of no-low fluoride bottled water.
  • Bottom Line: Now in my 60s, my arthritis of decades duration, as well as my chronic allergic cough, dry gums, IBS, nerve pain, etc., have all disappeared - and they did so in less than two weeks of my switch to no-low fluoride water. No more kidney pain and no more liver episodes, either.

 

Karen Spencer, Gloucester MA
http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/SalemState2016.09.07.pdf

As to my involvement as an activist, it is personal.

  • The city started fluoridating July 1, 1981 during my pregnancy. I became seriously ill during my second pregnancy in 1981 and almost lost my child.
  • My illness continued after I gave birth. It was marked by rashes, hives, fatigue, and gastrointestinal problems resulting in drastic weight loss.
  • In 2014, my “chronic Lyme” hobbled me and I was having kidney and liver problems.
  • Nine days after being assiduously strict in my avoidance of fluoride, even using spring water to brush my teeth, my arthritis of 23 years disappeared. My kidney and liver trouble also disappeared. Even my painfully dry gums cleared up.

Examples:

  1. You claimed, 02-19-2019 06:36 AM , that fluoridation supporters,“ share only partial, biased information in order to support their case, and convey information in terms that misrepresent the actual situation.”- A. Gesser-Edelsburg & Y. Shir-Raz

    I would like to remind you of your partial, biased quote from the US Public Health Service 09-13-2018 03:44 PM & 08-27-2018 07:12 PM .

    This provides an excellent example to expose and highlight a disingenuous, fear-mongering tactic regularly employed by anti- ASAs and bias-science activists (BSAs) to peddle their propaganda. They also help explain why ASAs & BSAs can come up with what appear to be long lists of references that appear to support their anti-science opinions – yet those opinions are dismissed by the majority of relevant scientists.

    The tactic: Extracting out of context content from published papers, which may appear to support their position, when the actual study design or conclusions of the study don’t. ASAs & BSAs not only cherry pick the studies they believe support their opinions (whether the study has anything to do with optimally fluoridated water or not), they cherry pick and present specific sentences out-of-context or cite studies completely irrelevant to in ongoing efforts to frighten the public.

    In the example below, your quote included everything in the paragraph from the US Public Health Service review EXCEPT the last two sentences, which you conveniently scrubbed out – and which actually support the scientific consensus that fluoridation does not cause adverse health effects. Here is the actual quote in context.

    Some existing data indicate that subsets of the population may be unusually susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride and its compounds. These populations include the elderly, people with osteoporosis, people with deficiencies of calcium, magnesium, vitamin C, and/or protein, and people with kidney problems. For most of these populations, there are very limited data to support or refute increased susceptibility to fluoride. Additionally, there are no data to suggest that exposure to typical fluoride drinking water levels would result in adverse effects in these potentially susceptible populations.” (Page 162-163) https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp11.pdf

  2. Communication to American Thyroid Association re fluoridation science, 11 Feb 2016
    In closing, given the fluoridation lawsuit pending in Peel, Ontario …, and other anticipated American lawsuits yet to be filed, we suggest that the ATA leadership and directors should be prepared to demonstrate their scientific integrity and professional ethics.”
    https://www.ehcd.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2016_02_11_ATALtrCWF.pdf
    https://americanfluoridationsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Response-to-Letter-to-ATA-copy.pd...
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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 352 of 1,450

BILLO writes:  "OK, you want a reference for sodium fluoride being used to induce cancer.  Don't have one at my fingertips."

 

WHAT A SHOCK!!  I didn't see that one coming.

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 353 of 1,450

Ken,

 

I was not laughing at your request for science.  I was laughing at the bizzar lack of support for excess exposure.  I simply don't have time to read all the posts.

 

OK, you want a reference for sodium fluoride being used to induce cancer.  Don't have one at my fingertips.  Obviously, pharmaceutical companies induce cancer to test their drugs.  What chemicals do they use?  One is sodium fluoride.  Look it up on PubMed.

 

And did you respond to the excess exposure of fluoride?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Recent Alarming Science - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 354 of 1,450

aka "Carrie Anne" writes:

 

"Oh course, if KenP had looked at the history of this thread beginning in Feb 2015, he would see I posted considerable scientific studies with discussion and that approximately 20+ seniors amiably joined in over a period of 3 years. That ended in June 2018 when the fluoride trolls descended en masse."

 

Response:  Glad to see you are documenting movements of the trolls.  If you get caught passing the dossier off to Christopher Steele, remind KenP that it was originally paid for by Republicans.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 355 of 1,450

I apologize if I misintrepetted the content in the link you provided that said your experience is in "soil fertility, fertilizers and chemistry" to include pesticides, but it is hard to determine how I wouldn't assume you work with fertilizers since that's what you listed in your profile. 

 

I agree this AARP forum is not the place for a scientific debate. This is the place for American seniors to discuss their health issues & concerns in a 'safe environment in easy to understand language' and to engage with AARP as to the policy and advocacy these American seniors would like to see AARP pursue with our U.S. government.

Sharing some science with some discussion is helpful for that purpose, but the AARP forum is not a scientific conference and domination by a few is not in keeping with the 'community' intent of this platform. 

 

Screen Shot 2019-02-19 at 6.31.09 PM.png

 

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 356 of 1,450

KenP says, "Yes, David, I can confirm I have Google and Google Scholar alerts for fluoridation and fluoride and often pick up articles and discussion this way.

I must set up similar alerts for Russiagate and Regime Change."

 

Response:  You don't have to.  You have the uncanny ability to zero in on and eulogize all those sources with which I happen to disagree.

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 357 of 1,450

Bill, I ask for the citation of the paper where you claimed NaF was used to induce cancer in animals. My wish is to assess the relevance of the paper to the issue.

So what do I get in respionse:

"You are not serious are you?  Your comments made me laugh out loud with a full belly laugh."

Come on - that is not respectful. I just want to check the paper. Why hide it?

Of course, I miss most of your comments - you blocked me, don't forget.

I seriously question your motives of coming here to respond to my comments when you have refused rational discussion on social media by blocking me.

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Re: Recent Alarming Science - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 358 of 1,450

Yes, I see you download citations and make claims about them - in bulk. But no discussion.

This is not the place for an extensive exchange on all your citations so I will just respond to one of them - the Bashash et al (2018). I am very familiar with this and have written a document which is relevant:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330897483_Evidence_linking_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_...

While these studies do suffer from the problems of using data not designed for the hypothesis they test and the urinary F spot measures are really inadequate, I have concentrated on the over advocacy of the regression analysis results.

Yes, they were able to find a few parameters (not all they tested) that were significantly related to maternal urinary F but, like the earlier IQ study, the regressions are poor. An R-squared value of only 3% really does not suggest there is a real problem - especially as when more important risk-modifying factors like nutrition are included, the relationship with urinary F would probably disappear. (I found that the Malin and Till 2015 study also suffered from not including relevant risk-modifying factors - when they are included, the relationship with fluodiation disappears completely - see my paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321457780_Fluoridation_and_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_... )

 

Bashash et al (2018) do acknowledge limitations in their study and specifically mention nutrition as one. They imply they will do more work to include this. As Malin et al  (2018) found significant relationships between maternal nutrition and child IQ parameters with a subset of these child-mother pairs it will be interesting to see the results of including maternal nutrition in Bashash et al's regressions. Malin et al (2018) explained more of the variance (R-squared value over 11%) so I look forward to future publication from the group.

By the way, your claim that my "job was to develop fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides" the is an absolute lie. I never worked with pesticides - or the development of fertilisers. You should be ashamed of lying in this way and it certainly undermines any claim you have to credibility.

Please stop such personal attacks and concentrate instead on good faith scientific exchange.

 

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 359 of 1,450

Ken,

You are not serious are you?  Your comments made me laugh out loud with a full belly laugh.  

 

The science posted has been mostly by those who want clean unmedicated water.

 

And I keep missing your response to my questions on over exposure.

 

With over 60% of adolescents having dental fluorosis (20% moderate/severe) NHANES 2011-2012 at what point will you admit (without humor) that many are ingesting too much fluoride?  Would you recommend 5% with severe dental fluorosis, 10% severe, or should everyone have severe dental fluorosis?

 

So the question is, what of the many sources of fluoride should be reduced?

 

Fertilizer, pesticides, medications, industry, toothpaste, fluoride added to public water?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Recent Alarming Science - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 360 of 1,450

Oh course, if KenP had looked at the history of this thread beginning in Feb 2015, he would see I posted considerable scientific studies with discussion and that approximately 20+ seniors amiably joined in over a period of 3 years. That ended in June 2018 when the fluoride trolls descended en masse.

 

Regardless of the opinion of a retired agricultural chemist from New Zealand whose job was to develop fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides, the epidimiologists, neuroscientists, and other scientists who published or read the recent peer-reviewed and high-quality studies listed as medical science rather than agricultural science are very alarmed about the implications relevant to fluoridation policy.  I have read them in full. 

 

THYROID: 18% of people drinking 'optimally' fluoridated water in Canadian communities have a heightened risk of low thyroid function because fluoride interferes with iodine metabolism. Many of them will be sub-clinical and not know they are mildly hypothyroid, which nevertheless increases their risk for diabetes, high cholesterol, and other problems. Study excluded those already diagnosed with thyroid disease.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041201830833X

  • Ashley J. Malin, Julia Riddell, Hugh McCague, Christine Till. Fluoride exposure and thyroid function among adults living in Canada: Effect modification by iodine status. Environment International. Volume 121, Part 1, December 2018, Pages 667-674.

 

PREGNANT WOMEN: Pregnant Canadian women drinking  'optimally' fluoridated water had twice the fluoride exposure per individual testing as compared to pregnant women in non-fluoridated Canadian communities - and consistent with the range in the Mexican women whose children had up to 6 points lowered IQ based on prenatal exposure to fluoride (from salt). Excluded those with health conditions such as kidney disease as well as considered confounding factors such as tea consumption. 
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/EHP3546
 

  • Christine Till, Rivka Green, John G. Grundy, Richard Hornung, Raichel Neufeld, E. Angeles Martinez-Mier, Pierre Ayotte, Gina Muckle, and Bruce Lanphear. Community Water Fluoridation and Urinary Fluoride Concentrations in a National Sample of Pregnant Women in Canada. Environmental Health Perspectives. October 2018. 

 

LEARNING DISABILITIES: Over 200 children were individually tested. Study found attention deficit disorder apparently caused by their prenatal exposure to fluoride specific to dose. This is the 3rd report out of the NIH sponsored 12 year study that seems to have been designed with the intention of showing no ill effect, but instead has three times confirmed low dose prenatal exposure to fluoride consistent with exposure in 'optimally' fluoridated communities causes subtle but permanent brain damage for many consumers.  Excluded those with history of mental illness or conditions such as diabetes and renal disease.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018311814

  • Morteza Bashash, Maelle Marchand, Howard Hu, ChristineTill,  Angeles Martinez-Mier, Brisa N. Sanchez, Niladri Basu, Karen Peterson, Rivka Green, Lourdes Schnaas, Adriana Mercado-García, Mauricio Hernández-Avila, Martha María Téllez-Rojo. Prenatal fluoride exposure and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in children at 6–12 years of age in Mexico City. Environment International. Volume 121, Part 1, December 2018, Pages 658-666.

 

OVERDOSED BABIES: Over one third of babies (37%) in fluoridated American communities consume amounts of fluoride in excess of the upper limits of fluoride considered safe per government regulations. Even 4% of babies in non-fluoridated communities are overdosed on fluoride due to consumption of products made with fluoridated water. At the very least, this puts these children at high risk for developing dental fluorosis, which is associated with increased incidence of learning disabilities, broken bones and kidney disease.
http://jocpd.org/doi/10.17796/1053-4625-43.1.7
 

  • Claudia X Harriehausen, Fehmida Z Dosani, Brett T Chiquet, Michelle S Barratt, and Ryan L Quock. Fluoride Intake of Infants from Formula. Journal of Clinical Pediatric Dentistry. 2018.

 

GOVERNMENT BIAS: A National Toxicology Program animal experiment studying the impact of fluoride consumption used the wrong rats, the wrong dose, and the wrong study design in order to manufacture a finding of no prenatal or postnatal effect.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987718308600

  • Karen Favazza Spencer, Hardy Limeback. Blood is Thicker Than Water: Flaws in a National Toxicology Program Study. Medical Hypotheses. Volume 121. December 2018. Pages 160-163.

 

SKELETAL MUSCLE DISEASE: Doses consistent with doses in the general population of optimally fluoridated communities can cause an autoimmune response and cell inflammation that results in either skeletal muscle enlargement or wasting.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749118325673  

  • P. Sudheer Shenoya, Utsav Sena, Saketh Kapoor, Anu  V. Ranade, Chitta R.Chowdhury, Bipasha Bose. Sodium fluoride induced skeletal muscle changes: Degradation of proteins and signaling mechanism. Environmental Pollution. 2018.

 

ADULT BRAINS: First long term NaF animal study (10 weeks) using moderate levels of fluoride finds a number of histological changes including in parts of the brain associated with memory and learning.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518317508  

  • Pei Jiang, Gongying Li, Xueyuan Zhou, Changshui Wang, Yi Qiao, Dehua Liao, Dongmei Shi. Chronic fluoride exposure induces neuronal apoptosis and impairs neurogenesis and synaptic plasticity: Role of GSK-3b/b-catenin pathway.Chemosphere. Volume 214, January 2019, Pages 430-435.

 

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE: Describes impact of fluoride-induced stress and inflammation in the development of Alzheimer’s disease and demonstrates the mechanism for cell death in its worsening over time.
https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/12/3965 

  • Goschorska M, et al. Potential Role of Fluoride in the Etiopathogenesis of Alzheimer’s Disease. Int. J. Mol. Sci. 2018, 19 (12), 3965. 

 

DEMENTIA: Describes mechanism by which the effectiveness of the two most popular drugs used to treat Alzheimer’s & other neurodegenerative dementia disease is reduced or blocked by fluoride. 

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/1/10/htm

  • Marta Goschorska, Izabela Gutowska, Irena Baranowska-Bosiacka, Katarzyna Piotrowska, Emilia Metryka, Krzysztof Safranow, Dariusz Chublek. Influence of Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitors Used in Alzheimer’s Disease Treatment on the Activity of Antioxidant Enzymes and the Concentration of Glutathione in THP-1 Macrophages  under Fluoride-Induced Oxidative Stress. Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2019, 16(1), 10. 

 

CANCER: Researchers who include an IARC scientist find esophageal cancer is 9.4 times more prevalent among those with dental fluorosis in the endemic fluorosis regions of Kenya. Provides biological plausibility that inflammatory fluoride affects microbiome and other biological mechanisms. Recommends more study. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30582155/

  • Menya D, Maina SK, Kibosia C, Kigen N, Oduor M, Some F, Chumba D3, Ayuo P, Middleton DR, Osano O, Abedi-Ardekani B, Schüz J, McCormack V. Dental fluorosis and oral health in the African Esophageal Cancer Corridor: Findings from the Kenya ESCCAPE case-control study and a pan-African perspective. Int J Cancer. 2018 Dec 23.

 

BONES & GENES: This 30 day animal study at 8 mg/L fluoride documents DNA & RNA damage that inhibits gene expression which can be passed on through generations affecting bone development and contributing to weak bones, blood & bone cancers and skeletal fluorosis. This is particularly important because EPA standards suggest that given this result, the 'safe' concentration of fluoride should be calculated at least 100 times less than what is now considered 'optimum.'  
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651318311734?via%3Dihub
 

  • Atule P. Daiwile, Prashant Tarale, Saravanadevi Sivanesan, et al. Role of fluoride induced epigenetic alterations in the development of skeletal fluorosis. Ecotoxicology and Environmental Safety. Volume 169, March 2019, Pages 410-417.

 

BRAIN INJURY: Fluoride interferes with calcium metabolism which impacts brain chemistry and poisons the hippocampus.  “The imbalance of calcium metabolism caused by fluorosis may be a pathogenesis of brain injury induced by fluoride.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518324007 

  • Qiuli Yu, Dandan Shao. Rui Zhang, Wei Ouyang, Zigui Zhang. Effects of drinking water fluorosis on L-type calcium channel of hippocampal neurons in mice. Chemosphere. Volume 220, April 2019, Pages 169-175. [Online Ahead of Print]

 

BRAIN DAMAGE: Prenatal & postnatal animal experiment using 10, 50 and 100 mg/L to simulate human experience documents mitochondrial damage and neuronal death as mechanism that result in learning and memory impairments. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30659323 

  • Zhao, Q., Niu, Q., Chen, J. et al. Roles of mitochondrial fission inhibition in developmental fluoride neurotoxicity: mechanisms of action in vitro and associations with cognition in rats and children. Arch Toxicol (2019).




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