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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 351 of 1,248

BillO, your quote:  "Yes, the FDA requires the label to say, "Do Not Swallow" fluoride toothpastes.  Seems clear."

 

Not quite.  My tube of Crest says, "If more than the intended amount used for brushing is accidentally swallowed . . "  More than the intended amount, which is a pea-sized drop.

 

So the question is:  Why would someone swallow more than the amount that would be on a toothbrush?  Because they wouldn't be taking it off of a toothbrush.  They would be taking it directly from the tube.  And if a parent walked in on his or her toddler with an empty tube of toothpaste, then you might have an overexposure to fluoride . . since toothpaste has about 2000 times the level of fluoride as optimally fluoridated water.  

 

"And I don't see where you bring up the fluoride added to water.   Do you think the toothpaste is a problem but not fluoridated water?"

 

I've already addressed that.  Since we weren't seeing the sharp increases in moderate fluorosis in the 1960s - 1990s, a period in which water fluoridation was on the rise, but we do see more moderate fluorosis now, when toothpaste marketers are catering more to the tastes of children, with bubble-gum or cotton-candy flavored toothpaste, then, no, fluoridated water does not appear to be a contributing factor to the rise in moderate fluorosis.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 352 of 1,248

Richard, please . . . 

 

Your quote:  "Excuse me? On what basis does this person claim a "lie"?"

 

Excuse me. this is where I used the word lie:  "Either admit you were mistaken, you misspoke, or you lied.  And then we can move on."  

 

I know it must be enjoyable to play the injured victim . . but it is not warranted in this case.  

So, you said:   'Toothpaste makers argue the bulk of blame goes to fluoridated water.'   No they don't.  You made the original claim in the context of lawsuits - toothpaste manufacturers blame water distributors, water distributors blame toothpaste . . and no one can get sued.  That was the context of your mis-statement. 

 

This is from the link you just provided:  "Another possible culprit of white spots on baby teeth is fluorosis, the white staining that develops when children’s developing teeth are overexposed to fluoride via drinking water or oral care products such as toothpastes and rinses."

 

Again:  "Oral care products such as toothpastes and rinses."  Crest is taking responsibility.  Crest is not "putting the bulk of the blame" on fluoridated water.  

 

Now either admit that you misspoke, you were in error, or you lied, and then we can move on.

Your link also says, "However, there’s a surprising silver lining to excess fluoride intake. According to the American Dental Association (ADA), experiencing fluorosis as a child can actually make your teeth better equipped to avoid future decay."

As you know, teeth with mild and very mild fluorosis are healthier and more resistant to decay.  Your own link says that.  Mild fluorosis, which is associated with CWF, does not diminish quality of life.  Dental decay does.  So this paranoia that you want to generate is meaningless.   One can only surmise what your reasons for doing it are.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 353 of 1,248

Richard,

 

Thank you for looking up the links.  On how to prevent the white spots, Crest suggests,

 

" Fostering proper brushing habits with Crest Kids Cavity Protection Sparkle Toothpaste, paying attention to fluoride intake, curbing the consumption of sugary liquids, and maintaining a balanced diet will all contribute to keeping your child’s smile healthy and beautiful for years to come."

 

Vague platitudes.  "Paying attention to fluoride intake."   Exactly what does that mean?  No practical advice and one step above worthless advice.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 354 of 1,248

David,

 

Sorry for double posts.  My computer said it did not go through the first time.

 

Thanks for asking for futher elaboration.  Yes, the FDA requires the label to say, "Do Not Swallow" fluoride toothpastes.  Seems clear.  And the amount of fluoride absorbed from the toothpaste without swallowing is minor.  However, some chemically sensitive people will have bad reactions to fluoride toothpaste touching their skin or mouth, but the FDA considers the risk for most to be acceptable.  The problem is spitting all the toothpaste out.   Is that reasonably possible?  Research shows most people swallow some or most.   

 

David, you asked, "You are saying if you brush your teeth with toothpaste, which has about 2000 times the level of fluoride as optimally fluoridated water, spit it out, . . . then you won't be exposing yourself to a significant amount of fluoride.  Correct?"

 

Bill:  Yes, FDA has approved toothpaste.  

 

David continues, "By "significant" I think we can agree that we mean - not enough to cause any effect, negative or positive.  Correct?"

 

Bill: No.  For some there might be a positive effect with mitigation of dental caries.

For some there will be risks such as swallowing, skin irritation (achne), apoptosis of cells, and for chemically sensitive individuals more problems.  In science, the words "always" and "never" are red flags and should not be used.  

 

Your illustration of arsenic is interesting.  I'm not an authority on arsenic absorption through the oral mucosa.  Nor has the FDA approved arsenic, but I would expect the arsenic would reduce dental caries.  Mercury does.    So my answer to your statement is, "I don't know."

 

Regarding your response to excess exposure, I agree.  Flavored toothpastes are highly suspect.  Unsupervised use of toothpaste is a serious concern.  I lean towards all fluoride toothpaste to be by prescription only. 

 

And I don't see where you bring up the fluoride added to water.   Do you think the toothpaste is a problem but not fluoridated water?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 355 of 1,248

Yet another website by Crest toothpaste manufacturers arguing that dental fluorosis spots on childrens' teeth are from drinking water

https://crest.com/en-us/oral-health/life-stages/kids/white-brown-spots-baby-teeth

Need more?

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 356 of 1,248

The facts are that 85% of the fluoride in the bloodstream of a fluoridaed community of consumers comes from fluoridated water consumption, not from toothpaste. Toothpaste use accounts for about 15%, as published in detailed exposure studies published by the NRC in 2006. Or are the NRC reviewers lying too?.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 357 of 1,248

Excuse me? On what basis does this person claim a "lie"? Has he seen every posted link on the entire internet and every statement ever made by toothpaste reps/makers and happens to know the statement I read does not exist?  Wow. Between that person and me I know who is lying.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 358 of 1,248

Richard and David,

 

You both raise interesting concepts which I would like to consider further.

 

For benefit, the manufacturers always say, "look at me."

For risks, the manufacturers almost always say, "not me, someone else is responsible."   No one likes to take responsibility for harm, risks, damage, hurt.

 

Obviously, if fluoride toothpaste is not swallowed, the toothpaste would not be a highly significant source of excess fluoride.  Unfortunately, research (Dec. 2010 HHS) indicates the directions are not usually followed and children swallow their toothpaste.   

 

However, David, the question also screams, what do you think about the latest research that 60% of adolescents in the 2011-2012 NHANES survey had dental fluorosis, 20% moderate/severe?

 

What is/are the source or sources in the population at large for the excess fluoride causing so much dental fluorosis for most children?

 

And the more important question, "what do we do to reduce the excess exposure of fluoride for children?"   Where do we cut back on the fluoride exposure? 

 

The clear, obvious answer is to stop water fluoridation and cut back on other sources of fluoride.

 

However, bias prevents metacognition and critical thinking. 

 

Market the benefits, blame others for the risks. 

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 359 of 1,248

Two things, Dr. Bill.  First this from you:  "If the directions are followed, which research shows is usually not followed and children swallow their toothpaste, then toothpaste should not be a significant source of fluoride exposure.   And it follows that water would be the greatest source of fluoride."

 

You are saying if you brush your teeth with toothpaste, which has about 2000 times the level of fluoride as optimally fluoridated water, spit it out, . . . then you won't be exposing yourself to a significant amount of fluoride.  Correct?  

 

By "significant" I think we can agree that we mean - not enough to cause any effect, negative or positive.  Correct?

 

Ok.  Try this.  Brush your teeth with something that has 1500 ppm arsenic in it, spit it out, do it two times a day, every day for your entire life, and let me know how you feel in ten years - if you're still alive.

 

You also asked, "what do you think about the latest research that 60% of adolescents in the 2011-2012 NHANES survey had dental fluorosis, 20% moderate/severe?"

I think we are seeing something that we have never seen before.  We didn't see it in the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s . . . we didn't see it during the period of growth for water fluoridation in the U.S., which doesn't support what you were getting at.

 

What is different today than during those decades is that now toothpaste manufacturers and marketers make toothpaste flavors that cater to the tastes of kids.  Why?  So that they will brush their teeth. 

 

So now we have grape flavored, cotton-candy flavored, bubble-gum flavored toothpaste.  It stands to reason that an unsupervised 2-year old who gets his hands on a tube of this stuff will think it is some kind of candy and eat the entire tube - because it tastes good.  And it stands to reason that no parent can watch their toddler every minute of every day, and some parents are likely to leave a tube of toothpaste on a bathroom sink within reach of a toddler.  

 

That's what I think about it.  I hope this answers your question.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 360 of 1,248

Richard, you say, "I looked for a mere 5 minutes and found the website for Crest toothpaste. It says when teeth are developing  a child can avoid dental fluorosis by not drinking fluoridated,water.

What more do you want? Toothpaste make4s arg7e the bulk if blame goes to fluoridatedxwater."

 

I believe your last sentence is saying, 'Toothpaste makers argue the bulk of blame goes to fluoridated water.'  Correct?  

 

No they don't.  Do you mean this link from Crest?  https://crest.com/en-us/oral-health/conditions/enamel/dental-fluorosis-causes-treatments-prevention

It says, "Is fluoride bad?  No."  

 

It also says, "Infants can contract dental fluorosis due to the fluoride that is found in water (usually ingested when mixed with infant formula) or due to ingesting fluoride toothpaste."  

 

And:  "For older children, remember to only apply a pea-sized amount of toothpaste and monitor their brushing to help them remember to spit toothpaste out after use."

 

Why spit after use?  So that the child doesn't swallow it.  Why not swallow it?  Because, according to Crest, ingesting fluoride toothpaste can lead to dental fluorosis.  Nowhere on that link does it say the bulk of any problem is because of fluoridated water. 

So, No, Crest does not argue that "the bulk of the blame goes to fluoridated water."  You made that up.  Crest fully admits that swallowing toothpaste can lead to fluorosis.  

 

Please, Dr. Sauerheber, like so many people today, you seem to double-down on a lie once you've been discovered.  

 

Either admit you were mistaken, you misspoke, or you lied.  And then we can move on.

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