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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 851 of 1,331

RS:  “I don't work for James Deal and never have, so the extrapolations you claim are not correct.”

 

And:  “My interaction with Deal is the same as my interaction with this AARP site and with anyone else who asks me for information. Scientists are supposed to and are expected to answer questions and that is what I have done for Deal and many others who seek to find answers.”

 

Response:  I never said you did work for him.  But you certainly contribute to his Fluoride Class Action website.  And for somebody who says he is fundamentally opposed to lawsuits, I find this very strange. 

 

Let me try to provide an example to illustrate what I am saying.  Josef Mengele was a scientist who did research on twins.  He was, as you said, “supposed to and are expected to answer questions.”  He had no problem supplying those answers to the people for whom he worked. 

 

You say you are fundamentally opposed to lawsuits, but you contribute to the Class Action website.  That’s fine.  You are saying that as a scientist you simply answer questions, post papers on his website, even papers about Relativity, because you don’t care about his ethics, you are simply answering questions.  If that’s the case, you wouldn’t have minded working alongside Dr. Mengele, because you don’t care about politics or ethics, or who uses your work, or for what purpose. 

 

I think you aren’t fundamentally opposed to lawsuits.  Either that or you’re one of the biggest hypocrites I’ve ever encountered.  How much money did you say Deal has collected from gullible clients that you spend your time frightening?  And how many lawsuits has he won for them? 

 

RS:  “Also I don't teach at UCSD and only am afifliated with the campus now through the alumni association.” 

 

Response:  They don’t pay you anything, do they.  You offer tutorial services, but you are not listed with the Office of Academic Support and Instructional Services. 

 

But you are affiliated with them because you graduated from UCSD.  In that case, I must be affiliated with Central Michigan University, because I graduated from there.  Am I also affiliated with my high school?  I’ve never heard of a scholar listing as an affiliation a university from which he graduated, have you?  If so, please provide an example of one.  Does UCSD know that you claim to be affiliated with them on your scholarly work? 

 

RS:  “So I have spent most of my free time the last 11 years petitioning the FDA to ban fluoridation for the country. The peitition is still under review (submitted 2011).  The Agency now is divided on whether they should ban it or simply leave it as is . . “

 

Response:  That is a complete lie.  As you know, the FDA has no jurisdiction over water fluoridation, other than fluoridated bottled water.  As you also know, a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was agreed upon between the EPA & the FDA in 1979 which placed water fluoridation under the jurisdiction of the EPA. 

 

You are digging yourself in deeper and deeper. 

 

RS:  “The oxygen levels in the; Colorado River downstream of Laughlin that discharges sterilized city wastewater directly into the river are substantially lower because of the discharges.”

 

Response:  Then doesn’t it make sense that oxygen levels downstream of the Sacramento discharge point would also be lowered?  And wouldn’t this also affect salmon returns, since salmon & trout require high levels of dissolved oxygen?  But you say you have looked at all factors and it must be fluoride  .  .  .  Ah, but then you can’t frighten people into giving money to a lawyer who says he will sue BOD loading into rivers, can you. 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 852 of 1,331

The oxygen levels in the; Colorado River downstream of Laughlin that discharges sterilized city wastewater directly into the river are substantially lower because of the discharges. But the EPA ruled that since there is no clear level at which a minimum has been set that whatever the level measures at the Mexico border, that is the level that the EPA will recognize as the allowed level.

This twisted thinhking course does not consider the role oxygen deficiency plays in controlling the flora and fauna in the river. My complaints to the Colorado River Board were overturned because an agreeemnt withLaughlin had already been made before I found the emissions were accumulaitng soap suds along the banks below the discharge pipe.  So studying a situation and describing the truth don't usually make a hill of beans difference to political systems that are already pre-decided. Laughlin continues to discharge into the river even though water skiing is dead south of the pipe, and Sacramento continues to discharge fluoridated waste water regardless of the fact that salmon are highly sensitive to fluoride. Whatever the oxygen levels have been in the river, fluoride waste on top of that has its own contribution to the poor health of the river.  

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 853 of 1,331

I don't work for James Deal and never have, so the extrapolations you claim are not correct.  Also I don't teach at UCSD and only am afifliated with the campus now through the alumni association. My direct collaborative work with Dr. Benson at UCSD ended when he passed away last year. I teach at Palomar and have students who are swamped with work. Interest and desire are far different than actually carrying out a project especially when the racehorse 7 year study that was published has not caused the city of L.A. to even consider halting fluoridation. A city mayor in Australia who supports fluoridation of people was given the study and remarked that "we don't have horses in our town so who cares?"

This is not "defeatist" as earlier claimed. It is simplly pragmatic. The reasons to halt fluoridation that are proven without doubt are already compelling and need to be described. We don't need more proof of harm for fluoridation promoters to ignore.

My interaction with Deal is the same as my interaction with this AARP site and with anyone else who asks me for information. Scientists are supposed to and are expected to answer questions and that is what I have done for Deal and many others who seek to find answers. 

One impact that was successful (which is very rare in the fluoridation industry) was to place the racehorse artricle on file at the Rancho Santa Fe Water District since this town has a horse population as high as the population of people. They know how to take care of horses there. The District officials told me they have no interest in fluoridation because most all their customers own horses.  Since this city operates the water treatment plant in the region, this spares from fluoridation all cities downline including Fairbanks Ranch, Solana Beach, Cardiff, old Encinitas, and Leucadia. Furthermore, one of my chemisry student's father is the chief breeder of horses for Los Alamitos. When he read the paper the word got out to the racing office at the track and soon after track officials halted purchasing L.A. city fluoridaed water and they only rely on well water. 

But victories like this are otherwise relatively nonexistent. So I have spent most of my free time the last 11 years petitioning the FDA to ban fluoridation for the country. The peitition is still under review (submitted 2011).  The Agency now is divided on whether they should ban it or simply leave it as is where fluoride infusions were already ruled as being an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug. The FDA stands by that ruling, so getting the Agency to go farther than that is difficult (and certainly a time-stealing endeavor).  

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 854 of 1,331

You say, "My deduction on salmon recognizes drought and other causes of salmon effects before fluoridation of course, but also that fluoride is one of the most potent causes because the fish only  lay eggs in water that chemically matches that where they themselves were spawned."

 

Response:  Great.  What's the dissolved oxygen level in that effluent, and what kind of BOD are they loading into that river?  Has anyone ever sampled for the new and emerging contaminant PFAS?  That would certainly have an effect on the chemical makeup of any waterway.

 

Richard, I had asked the question:  "Your hypothesis does nothing beyond supporting an agenda that helps Natural/Alternative Health people sell stuff, and Class Action Lawyers stir up potential clients for frivolous lawsuits.  Would you know anything about that?"

 

You responded by saying, "I don't believe in lawsuits and suing people. I was taught that by my parents."

 

Fair enough.  But it's no secret, and you've never made a secret of the fact, that you've done work for an attorney who runs a website called "Fluoride Class Action."  In fact, there's an entire page dedicated just to you https://www.fluoride-class-action.com/category/dr-sauerheber .   I mean, this is no secret.  This information is out there in the public domain.  

 

And this begs the question, how is it that someone whose very values are against the idea of lawsuits, has an entire section dedicated to him, for the entire world to see, on a website dedicated to a class action lawsuit against water fluoridation?  

 

By the way, has attorney James Deal actually won any lawsuits against anyone because of water fluoridation, or is he simply in the business of collecting money from potential clients?  

 

These are just questions.  I find it curious.  Fluoride Class Action isn't your website.  You just contribute to it.    

 

You also said, "I also don't own an oximeter or a boat. So you are probably talking to the wrong person."

 

Surely the University of California in San Diego has a boat and an D.O. probe.  The chemistry department, where you claim affiliation, surely has student interns just waiting for something to measure.  If I were in your position with a theory, but no empirical evidence to support it, I'd round up some students in a heartbeat, get some measurements and make some calculations.   

 

Is there any reason why you couldn't do that?

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 855 of 1,331

I don't believe in lawsuits and suing people. I was taught that by my parents. I also don't own an oximeter or a boat. So you are probably talking to the wrong person.

With the avocado leaf blight issue, saline is the chief known cause and there is no doubt the sodium from caustic soda used in fluoridation elevated the level above tolerable limits. There was no lawsuit against the city. It was proof that was undeniable and the conscience of city hall that led to an RO pipe dedicated without sodium and fluoride for the ranchers.

My deduction on salmon recognizes drought and other causes of salmon effects before fluoridation of course, but also that fluoride is one of the most potent causes because the fish only  lay eggs in water that chemically matches that where they themselves were spawned. So after the drought effects subsided and returns remain depressed anyway, fluoridation is the chief suspect.

The real question is why are city councils so easily convinced that fluoridation does no harm when it does harm bones, and yet also that it somehow hardens enamel, already the hardest substance in man when fuoride is absent from it? Propaganda is a dangerous thing. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 856 of 1,331

Again, regarding this quote:  "If anyone is bent on claiming that fluoride has no effect on salmon in the fluoridated main channel, then go there and find salmon laying eggs near the discharge pipe.  I am sorry to say you are not going to find them."

 

Response:  That may be true, but to say that it is because of the minute amount of fluoride, which you have never measured, is absurd.  Can you tell me what the BOD levels in Sacramento effluent are?  Can you tell me what oxygen levels are in the effluent?  Are you aware that trout & salmon require at least 7-10 ppm O2?  Can you tell me anything about what is in that discharged effluent?  

 

If I were an environmentalist, I would take a good look at those oxygen levels.  From there I would take a good look at that effluent to see what kind of BOD they are putting in that river.  But before any of that, I would need some solid evidence that the discharge itself has anything to do with smaller salmon numbers.  I see that those salmon returns were dropping to extremely low levels as far back as the early 1990s, well before fluoridation began.  

 

Your hypothesis does nothing beyond supporting an agenda that helps Natural/Alternative Health people sell stuff, and Class Action Lawyers stir up potential clients for frivolous lawsuits.  Would you know anything about that?

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 857 of 1,331

Richard, you say, "If anyone is bent on claiming that fluoride has no effect on salmon in the fluoridated main channel, then go there and find salmon laying eggs near the discharge pipe.  I am sorry to say you are not going to find them."

 

You know, that is a good idea.  I think it would also be a good idea to measure actual fluroide levels in the Sacramento River, since that has never been done.  Why don't you have some of your UCSD student interns take those measurements and do the necessary calculations to support these outrageous claims that you have been making . . without a shread of evidence.  That way you will at least have an empirical leg to stand on.

 

I see on this paper that you have written, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690253/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract you list your affiliation with the UCSD.  Are you still doing that or did they make you stop when they found out about it?

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 858 of 1,331

Ever since fluoridation started in the Sacramneto main channel where the discharge pipe dumps the fluoridated wastewater, salmon runs notice average about only 10,000. This is a 90% collapse compared to the former 100,000 before fluoridaiton and the infamous drought ( believed to be the cause of the decimation in the 2007-9 area). But the drought is long over. Only fluoridation remains to this date, and the salmon returns remain dismally below normal still also.

These data were not available when I deduced that fluoridation discharges were apparently affecting salmon in 2010 when the entire fishing industry collapsed on the river.

Yes the tributaries appear to have gained a little, but the tributaries are not and never have been fluoridated. The main channel remains fluoridated and the salmon have not returned anywhere near normal even though the drought is long gone. The drought came and went but fluoridation discharges remain.

Salmon only laoy eggs in the water that has the identical chejmical composiont as that in which they themsleves were spawned. Tributaries ar enot fluodiedc bu the main channel is. If anyone is bent on claiming that fluoride has no effect on salmon in the fluoridated main channel, then go there and find salmon laying eggs near the discharge pipe.  I am sorry to say you are not going to find them.

What else can I say? The outside chance that fluoridation of the channel has nothing to do with the coincident collapse (after the drought ended) all these years is so remote as to be irrational. I don't buy it is merely a coincidence.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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The Salmon in Sacramento story

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Message 859 of 1,331

Carry Anne,

 

You object to Gish Galloping, so I thought we could get back to Dr. Sauerheber's salmon story.  Since you tried to bury my comment (timestamp 08-30-2018 02:40 PM) which completely proved him wrong, about an hour after I posted it, I thought we could review it before it gets lost. 

 

Being the objective person that you are, wouldn't you agree that Dr. Sauerheber's story changed as more evidence was presented to him, and wouldn't you also agree that there was no merit to begin with to his claim that water fluoridation harmed the salmon population in Sacramento.  

 

Here it is for your review:

 

Wow!

 

Dr. Sauerheber, nothing in your statement ever evolved?  I have documented the evolution of your story.  Here is the documentation of the documentation - See my comment timestamp 08-30-2018 11:34 AM

 

Again, trying to focus on your salmon story, (because we wouldn't want anyone to accuse us of gish galloping), this is what you just said:

 

You say, “It is a documented fact that when fluoridation began, the salmon returning population was the lowest in all recorded history in the Sacramento River.”

 

And, “But the statement itself is a fact--the two occurred together, and when the collapse became so severe that the fishing industry on the Sacramento closed up shop, this was after fluoridation of South Scramento had begun many months before.”

 

Now, this is a link that you originally provided.  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586%C2%A0  I didn’t provide the link, but I suspect you didn’t bother to look at it either. 

 

Take a look at figure one.  All three sources of salmon spawn returns, Tributaries, Mainstem, and Hatcheries hit their lowest point in 2009. 

 

You said water fluoridation began in 2010.  All three sources showed improvement after 2009.  In 2010, there was a greater abundance of fish into the mainstem than in 2009.  2011 also showed improvement from 2009 (before fluoridation began), although the Fall return in that year was not quite as good as 2010.  Mainstem returns in 2012 was better than 2009.  2013 was better than 2009.  2014 was better than 2009.  And the next year also.  

 

In other words, the low point for mainstem returns happened before water fluoridation began.  After fluoridation began in 2010 there was improvement. 

 

I don’t get how you can’t even grasp the simple fact that when water fluoridation began in 2010, and you said it began in 2010, it had absolutely no negative effect on salmon runs, (you even have a picture to look at).  And yet you think you have the insight to argue that Einstein was wrong about time dilation. 

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Scientific Consensus Supports Community Water Fluoridation (CWF)

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Message 860 of 1,331

CarryAnne – First, let me apologize for interpreting your 08-22-2018 06:59 AM statement, “Willful blindness and financial benefit affect both organizations and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt” as “greedy, willfully blind”.  I have corrected the error in Q5 below.

 

Explain how my asking you a series of questions designed to examine your publically posted statements and positions and my requests for clarifications can, in any way, be defined as “A straw man fallacy” where “statements and positions are misrepresented by opponents(08-30-2018 07:46 AM)?  I am requesting that you explain more clearly your statements and positions so I don’t misrepresent them.  Specifically:

 

Q1)  Do you accept the fact that the support of CWF by virtually all nationally and internationally recognized science and health organizations constitutes the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective – YES or NO – and the related sub-questions.

 

Q2) Do you accept as true Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim about the CDC, ADA and AAP, “Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They do not protect the public.  They are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust”?  And do you believe that is applies it to the other 100+ organizations that do not publically denounce fluoridation and their hundreds of thousands of representatives?

 

Q3) Since you have gone out of your way to bring vaccination into the fluoridation conversation, do you also believe vaccination policies (to use your 08-24-2018 10:07 AM language) are also “an immoral medical mandate that forces contaminated product into bodies of convenient consumers regardless of impact on individuals in vulnerable populations who include senior citizens”?  Or do you accept the scientific consensus that the benefits of vaccination far outweigh any risks?

 

Q4A) You still have not addressed my 08-21-2018 01:00 PM correction to your blatant misrepresentation of the precautionary principle.

 

Q4B) You also did not provide an answer to my question, “If your claim ‘The evidence of harm caused by fluoridation is substantial and definitive’ is even remotely valid, how can you possibly explain the fact, which has been brought up and ignored by FOs  numerous times, that all of the major science and health organizations continue to publically recognize the scientific consensus that community water fluoridation is safe and effective and that there are no such organizations that support the anti-F agenda.

 

Q5) Did you actually describe in your comments (08-22-2018 06:59 AM), (08-19-2018 01:05 PM), (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) & (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) the ADA, EPA and ATA and their members as (corrected version) -- “[affected by] financial benefit, ignorant, willful blindness, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopathsNote: I corrected my original use of the term greedy.  If I am still misrepresenting your statements, please explain what you actually meant by those comments.

 

Update:  It is interesting to observe that in your “correction” comment 08-30-2018 11:03 AM, you don’t reference or highlight your 08-22-2018 06:59 comment “Willful blindness and financial benefit affect both organizations [ADA & EPA] and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt.

Instead you reference your 08-19-2018 01:05 PM post in which you only accuse some dentists who “intentionally support fluoridation for this purpose [financial benefit]” and continue with “Most are either ignorant or willfully blind. Others are either cowed into silence per my previous comments or are indeed sociopaths motivated by power, prestige and paychecks.

 

Q6) Do you also extend your description of fluoridation supporters in Q5 to all the hundreds of thousands of professionals who are members of all the other science and health care organizations that continue to recognize the benefits of CWF and have not publically denounced CWF?  Or do you have another explanation for why those professional health care providers choose to remain silent – or publically support the practice?

 

Q7) Another of my questions (08-21-2018 09:36 PM) I don’t remember you answering: ”By your ‘logic’ those who demand that drinking water chlorination be halted because chlorine has been used as an immoral chemical weapon (and creates a toxic brew of disinfection byproducts which have not been proven by randomized controlled trials to be completely safe) have a legitimate argument.  Do you believe that even if disinfection does help prevent diseases, disinfection policy is immoral mass poisoning because toxic chemicals are used and there may be health risks from overexposure to disinfection byproducts?”

 

You are still dodging my questions and providing additional irrelevant comments opinions and conclusions.

 

You still have not provided a rational explanation of why, if fluoridation opponents actually have legitimate scientific evidence to support their claims of harm, the scientific consensus that fluoridation is a safe and effective public health measure has not changed in over 70 years.  Or, if you believe the scientific consensus on fluoridation is irrelevant, you have not explained what your alternative would be.  It appears your alternative is to do whatever it takes to convince the public to blindly trust and accept fear-based, minority, outlier opinions.

 

Also, you have not provided a rational explanation of why you would trust or accept any claims made by any health professionals who supported or did not denounce CWF:

  1. If, as Dr. Osmunson’s apparently believes, those professionals who accept the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.
  2. And, as you apparently believe, they are “[affected by] financial benefit, ignorant, willful blindness, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths"

Q8 - New) Are all these science and health professionals selectively lemmings, willfully blind, greedy (sorry, [affected by] financial benefit), corrupt, etc., only when it comes to their understanding of the science related to fluoridation?  
If so, how would Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim “Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation” be even remotely justifiable?

 

As noted elsewhere, the IAOMT Position Paper Against Fluoride Use with “over 500 citations”, your lists of studies and articles FOs have interpreted as supporting their cause, dozens of opinions from other FOs, and what you accept as “inconsistencies between policy & scientific data” are completely irrelevant to any scientific discussion of the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective.  These tactics are nothing more than marketing strategies designed and implemented to try and scare the public (most of who are not trained and experienced in science or medicine) into believing the anti-F arguments and interpretations of the evidence have some legitimate credibility.  If their “evidence” was even remotely legitimate and credible, FOs would have been able to change the scientific consensus in discussions with relevant experts.  

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