Haves and Have-Nots

[EDChou]

There is a wide and growing, gap between those who have in the world, and those who don't.  Not only is the gap growing but so is the un-willingness to address it in any meaningful way that gets toward actual resolution of the problems at hand and/or, especially, its root causes, which are many, by those who have.  The 2014 economic conference at Davos, Switzerland was supposedly focused on issues of the widening gap between the rich and poor and how to work toward alleviating it.   Almost no time was devoted to this.  Hmmmmm.

In the US are many new retirees who are stuck at  minimum Social Security benefits forever, due to having to start their payments early at 62 in order to have ANY income at all.  These decisions are not made of freedom but of necessity - decisions made under duress. 

With no other income, the arithmetic does not work out at all for living.  This is existence, not living!  If one is forced to do file early and receive minimum benefits, due to bad economics, the benefits need to increase each year according to what the rate is for that year, as if one is just entering the system, until the maximum is reached at 65 or 66, for those who have no other income at all!  Lest we forget - This is America!  Where are the organizations who "say" they support the well being of seniors?

The availability of actual assistance is near nil, with none of that offering anything more than emergency or band aid "help".  (Don't be a single male with no children!)  All the government hype about ending homelessness, helping those who have the least, is just hype, as the "Tale of the Tape" reveals the actual story - Homelessness and need have increased drastically among have-nots.  (An exhaustive and continuing, study is done of Connect-To-Care, the Dallas government's excuse for a help mechanism, which showed their listed "resources" to be the same overworked, underfunded, organizations that have always been there.)  There has been repackaging of the same "resources" lists in other websites and organizations, while the resources themselves remain unchanged or less funded, leaving those who actually need help the most, in the same or worse overall shape.  If there are little to no actual resources available, which is the case in reality, what do these organizations actually do?  Jobs for those who have!  Notice how many low income people are employed in any of these.

With the baby-boomer generation coming into retirement age, there is a large number of retirees just entering the social security system, who spent their working lives at relatively unskilled jobs that offered no retirement plan, no insurance, no 401s, and the like, that paid so little that saving was out of the question.  This was influenced by the full scale and unregulated "outsourcing" of jobs, and the demise of unions.  Life after 50 meant jobs and job offers, lessened or ceased altogether.  This economic forced many into accepting less than livable Social Security, made and is making, a large group of retirement age have-nots who are out of work and in need of available assistance.

(Of sour note is the many who are plagued by student loans whose collection arms are more than willing to accept and/or forcably take, from those who who have no other income than Social Security and/or who are below the poverty level, leaving that individual with nothing at all, below where rent can be paid, food purchased - a loose cannon.  If you are living on the edge, not making enough for basics, this particular organization will still try and take from you, oblivious to the fact they can be rendering  a person homeless!) 

And no, retraining doesn't get you a job or help with age discrimination.  The fact that a senior has to ask someone for a job in the first place instead of having them call you, is the real issue.  To say there is no age discrimination is denying reality in many, if not, most, cases.  Experience is relatively meaningless after a certain age.

The question is Not how anyone got to retirement without having, but how to remediate it starting, Now, without looking at how and/or, especially, why, that individual got to retirement age in this shape in the first place. 

I think that's called - Non Judgemental.  Remember that one.  Takin a real beatin since the internet!  So has honesty.

And especially, of question, why this subject is one that so many don't want to address, see others address, have commentary/dialogue about, and why the refusal to offer explanation to back up this "reasoning"/stance for not wanting such discussion.  If a stance is solid, it stands on its own merit, and there is no fear, no reasoning for not putting it up for scrutiny!   Of question is the unwillingness-refusal to help anyone who doesn't have, without knowing their pedigree, or more.

What happened to helping someone who doesn't have, without knowing, or even trying to find out, how they came not to have?  Not just band-aid motion but sufficient to help fellow humans get themselves out of the cycle of poverty itself.

[GailL1]

@WebWiseWoman wrote . . . . So, while you're probably right about a lot of seniors needing help, it's not because we didn't contribute..

====================

Thing is the benefits are based on earnings - even though it is a progressive benefit computation and for those with lower income more of what they made is replaced by the benefit - it is still a low amount sometimes to rely on it completely.  That’s where those other helping hand benefits come in - but they are not within the beneficiary’s control and can change so it is hard for them to have complete stability when relying on these “helping hand government benefits”.  

BTW, what do you think of the suggestion of giving every kid born $1000 but they nor anybody else can tough it until some specific end time in the future?  If it grows until retirement - it will be a pretty penny almost anywhere that it is invested but hopefully someplace rather safe - 

[sh70419902]

My husband and I were prepared quite well for retirement at age 70....then I had two massive heart attacks and our insurance capped on the first one.  After paying off the bills left by the crappy insurance (which we thought covered all my expenses) I had the second attack.  After a week in critical care the bills were so huge our ONLY recourse was to completely deplete all IRA's, savings accounts and sold the house. We moved to a state where the COL was reduced, bought a "fixer-upper" and the husband found a job. Unfortunately his salary is NOT as nice as it was prior to our move which I suppose goes right along with the reduced cost of living.  I still have over 500K in hospital bills and am no longer capable of working. So for me it is social security's measly check to try to suppliment my husbands reduced income. I've read some of the comments that seem to blame the working poor for the situation they are in, and it disturbs me.  

[EDChou]

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@sh70419902 wrote:

My husband and I were prepared quite well for retirement at age 70....then I had two massive heart attacks and our insurance capped on the first one.  After paying off the bills left by the crappy insurance (which we thought covered all my expenses) I had the second attack.  After a week in critical care the bills were so huge our ONLY recourse was to completely deplete all IRA's, savings accounts and sold the house. We moved to a state where the COL was reduced, bought a "fixer-upper" and the husband found a job. Unfortunately his salary is NOT as nice as it was prior to our move which I suppose goes right along with the reduced cost of living.  I still have over 500K in hospital bills and am no longer capable of working. So for me it is social security's measly check to try to suppliment my husbands reduced income. I've read some of the comments that seem to blame the working poor for the situation they are in, and it disturbs me.  

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What's wrong with this picture?!!

What does this say about the American health care system as it stands?!

Where's the help from those who can?!

[GailL1]

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@EDChou wrote:

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@sh70419902 wrote:

My husband and I were prepared quite well for retirement at age 70....then I had two massive heart attacks and our insurance capped on the first one.  After paying off the bills left by the crappy insurance (which we thought covered all my expenses) I had the second attack.  After a week in critical care the bills were so huge our ONLY recourse was to completely deplete all IRA's, savings accounts and sold the house. We moved to a state where the COL was reduced, bought a "fixer-upper" and the husband found a job. Unfortunately his salary is NOT as nice as it was prior to our move which I suppose goes right along with the reduced cost of living.  I still have over 500K in hospital bills and am no longer capable of working. So for me it is social security's measly check to try to suppliment my husbands reduced income. I've read some of the comments that seem to blame the working poor for the situation they are in, and it disturbs me.  

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What's wrong with this picture?!!

What does this say about the American health care system as it stands?!

Where's the help from those who can?!

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  I don't think there is enough information to answer your questions.

  I noted several points in the posters story . . . . any of all of them seem like questionable decision making in my view based only from the information given.

1.  the type and coverage of the insurance which they had at the time

Each of us have to pick the best coverage based on our health, network coverage, insurance plan coverage and our total financial picture.  Knowledge and understanding about the insurance product is paramount in planning.

2.  Depleting retirement accounts

This should never be done since they are protected funds.  The purpose of these funds are for retirement and that does not go away if you survive.

3.  Moving to a lower COL area was probably a good decision as long as there was adequate medical care, so it depends on where the relocation was located.  However, many times medical cost and insurance are higher in rural areas than in urban areas because of competitive forces and of course, availability is lower in more rural areas.

4.  a "fixer upper" can be a money pit - renting might be cheaper especially when considering that rent would be a known cost whereas a fixer upper could have escalating cost in many different areas.

EDChou, I believe that a lot of our problems lie in financial education and decision making - which covers all aspects of a person's use of money - from savings to buying products (like insurance of all types) which also cover the financial aspects of our lives.

There is always Medicaid for those who meet the criteria of income and need.

We have tons of housing programs under HUD - subsidized and Sect. 8 - which covers the elderly, disabled and the poor.

Those that CAN or those that HAVE, as you categorize the differentiation,  support all of these programs with their tax money and this is just talking about government programs; there may be even more at specific state levels especially since these programs are designed by the various states.

[sh70419902]

I had blue cross blue sheild of texas, silver plan ppo.

When the hospital started to destroy our credit ratings we had no choice but to pay them off, thus turning in first our retirement plans and savings, then ultimately, without my salary the mortgage became too much. we were unable to refinance through any program so we sold the house, thus able to relocate and pay off the bills.

 I fail to see that any of decisions were wrong as you seem to imply.

We PAY our bills, if we can't then we do not incur them if we have a choice in the matter. We took responsibility for ourselves instead of requesting some iffy goivernment assistance. 

You suggest that one should never turn in retirement funds..we had no other choice. What would your suggestion have been then? take out a loan against the funds? no way to pay it back but mess up our credit rating more? wrong.

I have medical care, just no insurance. it is called the free clinic where I sit for hours waiting for a possible place, then receive my medications either directly from the manufacturors or on a scale basis.

Our "fixer-upper" may be a money pit to some, to us it represents a HOME. So what if it has no central heat/a/c? so what is the carpet is gross? it is a HOME. Something we would have ultimately LOST if we had made any decisions other than the ones we made.

you said "there is always medicaid".....well, actually no there isn't. If one makes a salary or paycheck over 1500.00 per month for two people then that person makes too much money to receive medicaid. I know as we were turned down for making "too much money".

And if you have ever seen, lived in or visited section 8 housing then YOU TOO would have chosen a "fixer-upper"  just as we did.

[RN362636]

What I would have suggested when your care for the heart attack occurred would be to call the finance/ billing department of the hospital as soon as released and ask for a cash price for the care that you received. The exact same thing happened to a friend who had a heart attack between jobs and no insurance. He told them that he needed a cash price or else he would have to file for medical bankruptcy and they would get nothing. They said $6,000. He gave them his credit card number and it was done. A $6,000 credit card debt was over a $100,000 better than a full hospital bill. Now, I must say that cash price care usually only occurs before care is given but it worked for him and it always worth asking.

[EDChou]

Here's a couple of tips for folks who have fixer-uppers:

Home Depot and Lowes both offer Do It Yourself books that are quite helpful.  I carry one with me.  There are general offerings that include a little about a lot of subjects and more specialized books on specific subjects.  Check them out.  I caught one on clearance for under $15.

Have you looked under your carpet to see just what kind of flooring is there?  Many houses built before 1950 have hardwood.  Lots nicer than carpet.  Takes some work.  Cost is for poly and sanding if needed and you might need to rent sander - $20 or so for a day.

Minimum drywall is not hard to learn and can be quite a valuable tool.  Again, it's in the aforementioned books along with much more.

This is not an ad for either of these companies but when there's a good product, HELP SOMEBODY.

[retiredtraveler]

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EDChou wrote:

Here's a couple of tips for folks who have fixer-uppers:

Home Depot and Lowes both offer Do It Yourself books that are quite helpful. ......Have you looked under your carpet to see just what kind of flooring is there?  Many houses built before 1950 have hardwood.  Lots nicer than carpet.  Takes some work......Minimum drywall is not hard to learn and can be quite a valuable tool.....".

   Agreeing.  I also use YouTube to research everything I need to do to work on house or yard equipment. There are some really good videos out there showing step-by-step 'how to's".

    We have a 1950's house. In our case, the hardwood floors were in too bad a shape to restore, but yes, it's very possible to have a nice floor under layers of carpet.  Also agree with drywall --- you need help with it unless you're physically very strong, but it's not difficult.

   DW and I also have done a lot of ceramic tile, which I really like. Again, not difficult but very time consuming.  I am a big believer in people learning to do some things themselves to mitigate expense. Like everything else, YOU have to get involved, learn, do.................

[RN362636]

I agree. Not only is it way less expensive but you learn new skills and have the pride of doing it yourself. Many cities have a place called ReStore. They have  items that can be useful such as flooring, paint, light fixtures, sinks, cabinets, even furniture etc. Much of what they have is donated by contractors who have leftovers from a job or individuals who donate things. It is worth a look if there is one nearby and you need to save money. The money raised helps to build homes for Habitat for Humanity so a good cause too.

[EDChou]

"I fail to see that any of decisions were wrong as you seem to imply."

Please don't read more into my comments than is stated.  I have many times stated clearly and succinctly that how you got to where you are is  not the/an issue.  Please read back in this forum.

"You suggest that one should never turn in retirement funds"

Exactly where do I suggest this?

"you said "there is always medicaid" "

Again, where do I say this?

I have visited and seen a lot of Section 8 housing in various parts of the country and there has been improvements in quality throughout.  Slum lording is out!  There is such enforcement of the rules that the system actually works better.  Sure there are massive waiting lists, making the system useless to many, if not most, new applicants - This is a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed.

Fixer-uppers are popular nowadays.  They are just what the name says.  I moved into one years ago where the fixing was in exchange for rent.  There was a nasty old carpet here also.  Removing it uncovered a nice hardwood floor.  Sanding and polying it added value to the house - One nice floor!  I removed the old damaged drywall, insulated, and rewired where needed.  It was a Win-Win for both me and the owner.

This forum is not about how you got to where you are, but about getting help back up once you have.  It's about those who have, actually helping those who don't - Without judgements.

[sh70419902]

i was attempting a reply to gail, not you.  Did not mean to imply that is was personal on your part as all of your comments have been non-emotional and non-judgmental. 

[EDChou]

No problem here.
One of the purposes of this forum is to elicit non-judgmental help for those who don't have.

[EDChou]

You hit on a big one in financial education and decision making. Sometime back it was mentioned by mickstuder that courses about business, money, economics, were being taken out of his high school when he started. I saw this at my high school also, about the same time. Figuratively I say good courses were taken out and we were force fed Shakespeare, that turned out to be little or no value in the work world.

[retiredtraveler]

.".... Figuratively I say good courses were taken out and we were force fed Shakespeare, that turned out to be little or no value in the work world.....".

Au contraire.

     From Forbes, for business people.

"....And as I reflected on this, I thought of Shakespeare, one of the most accurate and insightful people of all time in terms of understanding the human condition. Whether or not you’re a fan of the bard, he wrote many lines of truly timeless wisdom that directly support our efforts to be good and worthy leaders.  Here are my top ten favorites:

On passion: “To business that we love we rise betimes, and go to’t with delight.”

On taking smart risks: “There is a tide in the affairs of men which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries.”

On trustworthiness: “The purest treasure mortal times afford is spotless reputation—that away, Men are but gilded loam, or painted clay.”

On resilience: “Wise men ne’er sit and wail their loss, but cheerily seek how to redress their harms.”

On vision and strategy: “See first that the design is wise and just; that ascertained, pursue it resolutely.”

On authenticity: “This above all, to thine own self be true, and it must follow as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.”

On wisdom: “There is no darkness but ignorance.”

On self-confidence: “Our doubts are traitors and cause us to miss the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt.”

On earning respect: “Let none presume to wear an undeserved dignity.”

On optimism: “True hope is swift, and flies with swallow’s wings. Kings it makes gods, and meaner creatures kings.”

The longer I live, the more I notice that the world offers me nearly endless sources of inspiration and clarity every day. Or, in Shakespeare’s own words, “A right judgement draws us a profit from all things we see.”

[EDChou]

Where does any of this apply to work?
That's what I' saying. We had to endure 4 years of this as a daily class, as a required subject in order to graduate.
Wouldn't this time have been better spent in economics, general business, people studies?

[retiredtraveler]

Where does any of this apply to work?

   Those quotes were published from a Forbes article stating that these were principles, and quotes, that all business people should know. They consider those quotes, as I do, totally applicable to work and how to conduct oneself in a work environment. 

  I also don't know which '4'  years you're referring to. High school, or undergrad. I'm thinking high school. If so, I would disagree. I believe business should be taught at a college level, including business math, economics, and soc/psych (people studies). High school is a time for math, science, lit (with Shakespeare). We already graduate a large number of kids that cannot do basic math, or read at a level they should be. Economics takes math to properly understand. We have millions of people (according to what I read) that graduate from high school and can't solve for 'x' in "...x+1 = 2... Solve for 'x'.

   You should be capable of reading contracts by 18 years of age. No, not all the legal terms, but capable of reading the contract and looking up the legal terms and understanding it. Can't teach 'business' to anyone who can't read with a comprehension level to understand contract law, the basis of business. Can't teach anyone how to do spreadsheets, or understand P&L's, without sound math skills.

[RN362636]

Let's just start with basics like how to open a bank account, how to write a check, save for a rainy day, compound interest, the real cost of credit card debt, the importance of an emergency fund, how to make a budget and saving for retirement, etc. From there we can move on to business. Many adults don't even have these basics taught to them and they are the ones most likely to struggle.

[SereneSeagull]

This thread was started in 2014, how outdated is this thing?

[EDChou]

You only speak of business people. What about the rest of the world? Most people who work are not business people. In addition, who in the work world reads Forbes? It is not aimed at the working public but specifically at business.
The 4 years I am referring to is high school.
This subject has come up many times in my 40+ work years, on many jobs and projects, and the consensus has always been that the study of "English" as we had it was of no value in the "real" working world - that of labor, low paying jobs, among people who do not own or run their own businesses, among the have-nots.
Please explain why you see the need for this INSTEAD of more emphasis on math, economics, science, especially in the schools with the worst records.
Please explain why you think business should not be taught from early school forward.

[retiredtraveler]

"...This subject has come up many times in my 40+ work years, on many jobs and projects, and the consensus has always been that the study of "English" as we had it was of no value in the "real" working world - that of labor, low paying jobs, among people who do not own or run their own businesses, among the have-nots.....".

   Oh man. You've pretty much explained, right here, why there are so many have-nots. 40 years ago, only 20% (+ or -) of workforce were considered white collar. Now, it's about 65%. There were no PC's. We didn't have a global economy. 

   Have you not read the countless articles talking about how young adults need to have social, thinking, math, reading, writing, science skills to compete in a global economy?  Yeah, that includes the study of English. If you cannot read with good comprehension, and write with skill, you won't even be able to fill out a job application well,  or write a resume.  40 years ago you could show up at a factory and get a job. We boomers could get jobs in spite of our lack of skills because there was so much demand.

  That ended. You need to be able to walk, talk, write, dress, comprehend and most important, have the skills to learn new skills. If not, you remain in the have nots working at Mickey D's, and not as a manager.  

[EDChou]

What are you doing, what do you do, directly, to help any have-not(s) get up that ladder? To help alleviate the growing economic and social gap?
Please be very specific.

[RN362636]

You keep addressing others but what are YOU directly doing specifically to help the "have not (s) get up the ladder"? How are YOU " alleviating the growing economic and social gap." Some of us would like to know; please be specific.

[GAKKIEZ]

I think the bigger question is: What is this person doing to help herself?

She just seems to be another whiner with a 'poor me' attitude.  She needs to get off her butt and do something for herself.  It does make a difference when a 'poor me' makes/takes some kind of positive action instead of waiting for others to do for her.

[retiredtraveler]

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@EDChou wrote:
What are you doing, what do you do, directly, to help any have-not(s) get up that ladder? To help alleviate the growing economic and social gap?
Please be very specific.

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  I'm not. I early-retired at 55 after 3 careers and 8 years of college, half of it done working full time and going to night school. DW did the same. I early retired because after spending years in the library studying for night  classes while working full time, I spent an afternoon, or evening a week, studying personal finance and economics (had some econ in school, but further got into it as I used that as a basis for making investment decisions). I learned personal finance and investing by going to the library with a notebook. learning investment terms, learning legal terms. It took years. I started with
Money mag and Kiplinger until I was able to read a Wall Street Journal with understanding.

  My parents came off farms, and dad's parents lost theirs in depression, and both went on to get educated. You have to be motivated, willing to work, live frugally, read everything, turn off the TV. 

   We worked on our own education and careers.  We handled our own finances and learned to save and invest. We were always active in an environmental group. We have not missed more than a handful of election voting. 

  What 'specifically' should we have been doing to eliminate social and economic disparities?  We vote for tax increases, even though we don't have kids, for education. 

   I have no idea how to make a have-not to a have unless they push themselves in school as we did, no TV, no sports (we've never watched a single game in any organized sport in our lives). Just study and learn what's going on in the world so you can make informed decisions.

[EDChou]

Question still stands.
If you have no idea of how to help any have-not into being a have, there is a learning process. One has to start! A great start would be to respectfully and lovingly, share your methodology with those who don't have.

Working with groups that do direct, base level assistance, is another way to help.
Question is and has been, what are you doing presently, and what are you going to do, to directly help someone who does not have?

[RN362636]

You can try to teach people when they are young the importance of preparing for their future. Teach them basic financial skills...how to handle credit, a checking and savings account, the power of compound interest, how a 401K plan and IRA's work, etc. Teach them the importance of always learning new skills so that they stay relevant in the job market. I believe that people do better when they know better. Many don't learn from parents, most don't learn in school, employers don't help in this arena, so who is to teach them? 

[retiredtraveler]

Question is and has been, what are you doing presently and what are you going to do to directly help someone who does not have?

   I answered it. Nothing. You think some underprivileged kid is going to listen to a grumpy, 65 year old man tell them what they need to do in life to succeed? C'mon. You think a 15-year old is going to listen

to me tell them that they need to be a nerd, as myself? That they need to have nothing to do with sports and instead, play an instrument and study at least 3 hours a night with the rest of the free time involved in musical practice and performance prep. And any free time left, read. 

   Yeah,  I was one of those stereotype nerds in high school that was left out of everything from the 'cool kids' and hung around with other music nerds and kids who actually appreciated education.

    That's why I keep asking:  What do you think us old, retired people, are going to have to do to solve these issues? We're done as far as younger people are concerned. We have our homes, savings, SS, along with our old music. We hardly know how to use technology, we're slow, and mostly talk about our aches and pains all day.  What do we know about how hard their lives are? 

[EDChou]

Yes, some underprivileged kid WILL listen to a grumpy old 65 year old tell them how to succeed.
Many of us are called Ol School and many young kids are longing for the knowledge and experience we hold..
And what about the ol schools who don't have what you do and also need help? Still gonna do "nothing"?!
The fact that those who have do "nothing" to help those who do not, is at the root of the issue! Where does having, exempt those who have, from helping those who don't?
I'm 66 myself, and I'm not done. Your stereotype does not cover the range of seniors at all. I have young people of a range of ages, from teenagers to 40+ year olds, asking for advice. They help make this senior proud to have been and done.

Old Worker & OG.

[RN362636]

I don't believe that any school is going to let a stranger in to teach kids anything. Where exactly do you do all of this teaching and exactly how did you begin? That might be more helpful than just constantly asking others what they are doing for society. Give people a list of solid ideas, not disdain.

[retiredtraveler]

"...I have young people of a range of ages, from teenagers to 40+ year olds, asking for advice. They help make this senior proud to have been and done....".

  Can't argue with that. I have seen no groups, outside of groups sponsored by the high school, where anyone is looking for advice. We don't have kids. The only kids we know have good parents who are dispensing their own advice. And, if you've slept your way, or drank/drugged your way through high school, you're toast already.