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Bronze Conversationalist

Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

“The evidence that fluoride is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming… fluoride may be destroying our bones, our teeth, and our overall health.” - Dr. Hardy Limeback,  former President of Canadian ADA, Head of Preventive Dentistry at Univ of Toronto, 2006 National Research Council Scientist (2007)

 

The 2006 National Research Council on Fluoride in Drinking Water commented to the EPA that fluoridation at 1 ppm can be anticipated to be harmful for those with reduced renal function and the elderly. The NRC confirmed that fluoride not excreted by kidneys builds up in bones, resulting in arthritic pain and increased brittleness. However, there were no EPA studies on the whole health impacts of fluoridated water on susceptible population such as kidney patients, children, those with prolonged disease or the elderly. There still aren’t. 

 

However, there is mounting science from other sources that “optimally fluoridated” water, which is known to cause varying degrees of dental fluorosis in 58% of Black American adolescents and 36% of White American adolescents, is causing subtle deficits in ability to remember or focus. That same “optimal level” has also been proved in a 2014 study as being nephrotoxic in rats with chronic kidney disease. Chronic kidney disease (CKD) affects approximately 15% of Americans, although CKD is quadruple the rate in Black Americans, and predictably worse in older Americans. 

 

Perhaps the most horrifying part of the story of fluoridation is that not only is at least 50% of every drop of fluoride that has passed the lips of a Baby Boomer permanently stored in bones, fluoride isn't the only poison in packages of fluoride that originate as the waste product of aluminum an phosphate industry. 100% of the fluoride sampled in a 2014 study was contaminated with aluminum; arsenic and lead were other common contaminants. In other words, fluoridated water serves as a delivery system for aluminum and lead into our bones and our brains. As we all know, aluminum is associated with Alzheimers in adults, and lead is associated with learning disabilities in children. Approximately 15% of the population who is sensitive to chemicals cite inability to think clearly and overwhelming fatigue as symptoms of exposure to fluoridated water. 

 

Our generation was part of a great human experiment. It may have had noble intentions based on the faulty hypothesis that  drinking fluoridated water prevented cavities. It is now known that any perceived benefits of fluoride are from tooth brushing.  Our grandchildren are the third generation in this travesty. I suggest we all DEMAND the AARP stand up for us and our grandchildren by issuing a strong position paper calling for the cessation of water fluoridation. 

 

SCIENCE REFERENCES

  1. 2014 in Toxicology. Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats. (“Optimal levels” worsen kidney function😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004
     
  2. 2015  in Neurotoxicology and Teratology. Association of lifetime exposure to fluoride and cognitive functions in Chinese children: A pilot study.  (Children with visible dental fluorosis perform less well on memory tasks, correlating with the degree of severity of their fluorosis. One of a series of human and animal studies with the same consistent findings.😞 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25446012  
    2. http://braindrain.dk/2014/12/mottled-fluoride-debate/ 

  3. 2014 in Physiology and Behavior. Fluoride exposure during development affects both cognition and emotion in mice. (Measurable behavioral changes😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24184405

  4. 2014 in International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health. A new perspective on metals and other contaminants in fluoridation chemicals. (All samples of fluoride are contaminated with aluminum, plus other contaminants like arsenic, lead and barium); 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24999851
    2. http://momsagainstfluoridation.org/sites/default/files/Mullenix%202014-2-2.pdf

  5. 2014 in Scientific World Journal. Water Fluoridation: A Critical Review of the Physiological Effects of Ingested Fluoride as a Public Health Intervention. (Health risks and cost don't justify minimal and questionable dental benefit.):  http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

 

RACIAL INEQUITY (FOIA)

Here are three Oct 2014 news articles on the content of the Freedom of Information Act documents. Rev. Andrew Young, former UN ambassador has pursued them with the CDC, but to little effect. Civil Rights leaders have been calling for an end to community water fluoridation (CWF) since 2011. 

 

2015 LEGAL ARGUMENT (GROSS DISPROPORTIONALITY) 

There is a legal initiative in Peel, Ontario (pop 1.3m) to remove fluoride from the water supply based on the principle of gross disproportionality, i.e. marginal benefit does not justify great risk of harm. There is also a political effort afoot in Canadian govt to mandate fluoridation and thereby make the legal argument moot. I suggest this document is well-worth printing.  http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/peel.june2014.pdf

  • a. The first 19 pages of this document is about the legal strategy. It includes summary of US legal cases that found water fluoridation harmful to the public, but legal under US "police power" mandate.
  • b. Starting on page 20 is a devastating affidavit by Dr. Kathleen Thiessen, NAS/NRC scientist and international expert in risk assessment. Very readable summary of science indicating harm to populations in “optimally” fluoridated communities. 

 

POPULATION WITH LOW CHEMICAL THRESHOLD

  1. In excess of 25% of previously healthy Gulf War Veterans have Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, which includes sensitivity to fluoride. See: http://www.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/committee_documents/gwiandhealthofgwveterans_rac-gwvireport_2008.pdf 
    1. EXCERPT: “It is well established that some people are more vulnerable to adverse effects of certain  chemicals than others, due to variability in biological processes that neutralize those chemicals, and clear them from the body.” - Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses 2008 
  2. Affidavit of Dr. Hans Moolenburgh: https://fluorideinformationaustralia.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/affidavit-moolenburgh.pdf
    1. Except: “As a summary of our research, we are now convinced that fluoridation of the water supplies causes a low grade intoxication of the whole population, with only the approximately 5% most sensitive persons showing acute symptoms.The whole population being subjected to low grade poisoning means that their immune systems are constantly overtaxed. With all the other poisonous influences in our environment, this can hasten health calamities.” 
  3. PubMed Listed Studies on immune system response: 
    1. a. Fluoride makes allergies worse, rats (1990): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1707853 
    2. b. Fluoride makes allergies worse, in vitro (1999): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9892783
    3. c. Immune system of the gut (2010): http://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2010/823710/ 
    4. d. ASIA Syndrome, adjuvant impact (2011): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902
    5. e. Gene predicts fluoride sensitivity (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25556215
    6. f.  Brain has an immune system (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26030524

 

AARP - STAND UP on our behalf! 

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Bronze Conversationalist

 Dr. Joel Bohemier’s presentation to the Commissioners of Collier County, FL  includes quotes for EPA, CDC and others under oath from TSCA trial depositions. This presentation was part of the Commissioners deliberation that resulted in its unanimous vote to end fluoridation last week: https://unite.live/widgets/4142/recording/player#  

 

It is in the hands of Judge Chen, now, but I've got to say that the closing on Feb. 20th was odd.

 

Not only did Judge Chen pepper both attorneys with questions, the EPA attorneys seemed to admit that fluoride exposure at doses consistent with water concentration of 1.5 ppm, 2 ppm and 4 ppm had been proven to result in lower IQ per studies of mom-child pairs performed in Canadian and other communities across the world. They admitted this despite the official policy of the U.S. EPA stating there is no harm up to 4 ppm (the actionable threshold for remediation) other than mild cosmetic dental fluorosis (tooth staining) at or above 2 ppm. The Canadian government has an actionable threshold of 1.5 ppm which is consistent with the WHO guidelines. 

 

When Judge Chen challenged the EPA that per both plaintiff and defense witnesses, shouldn't there be a protective uncertainty or safety factor of at least ten to protect consumers applied to 2 or 4 which would protect teeth from moderate dental fluorosis which a recent Health Canada is concern at 1.56 ppm and from severe dental fluorosis which the 2006 National Research Council (NRC) said was an adverse health risk at 4 ppm which would also protect brains, EPA Defense attorney said that would be an interesting thought experiment, but Plaintiff attorney didn't argue about dental fluorosis (which by the way is positively associated with lower IQ and learning disabilities) so the judge could not legally do so. Frankly, it almost seemed like the EPA attorneys were threatening the Judge. 

 

Judge Chen pushed back about EPA "Health Protective Assumption" guidelines, but EPA insisted that the Judge must not act based on science or consumer protection, but on strict interpretation of statutory law and the skill of the Plaintiff attorney in proving his case. 

 

On the other hand, Plaintiff attorney was clear that the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) only requires that any specific use of a chemical (fluoridation programs) not pose an "unreasonable risk" to consumers which include susceptible sub-populations like pregnant women and their offspring and bottle-fed babies. All five plaintiff witnesses were quite clear that optimally fluoridated water per CDC guidelines is subtly and permanently damaging the brains of millions of children. Even EPA witnesses and attorneys admitted that there is "something there" in the scientific evidence showing neurotoxic effects at 0.7 ppm, but argued it is not clearly defined enough to identify a "Point of Departure" for the EPA to perform a risk assessment. 

 

Really? 

 

Three Benchmark Dose Analyses which are the gold standard for beginning risk assessments and established uncertainty factors have identified that 0.2 mg/L, which is one tenth of 2 ppm, as harmful. This suggests that no fluoride exposure is safe for baby brains and is a scientifically justifiable Point of Departure in anyone's book.  

 

BMCLBMCL

 

But let's make it even easier for thick-headed fluoridationists to understand: 

  • No amount of fluoride in water or food is safe for pregnant women and their fetuses; bottle-fed infants and young children; the elderly and any in fragile health, such as diabetics or those with thyroid or kidney disease. 

 

 

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Bronze Conversationalist

 “Today’s ruling represents an important acknowledgement of a large and growing body of science indicating serious human health risks associated with fluoridated drinking water. This court looked at the science and acted accordingly. Now the EPA must respond by implementing new regulations that adequately protect all Americans – especially our most vulnerable infants and children – from this known health threat.” - Wenonah Hauter, Director of Food & Water Watch in “Historic Court Decision in Fluoridation Toxicity Case Orders EPA to Act” (Sept. 25, 2024)

 

Well, it as been a busy few weeks! 

 

Not only was the final NTP Systematic Review, "Fluoride Exposure: Neurodevelopment and Cognition" published in August (despite political efforts by HHS/PHS and ADA to scuttle it) after five (or was it six) peer reviews, the Final Findings and Conclusion of Law from a lengthy de novo trial was rendered in September with excellent detail, and the 2024 Cochrane Systematic Review, "Water fluoridation for the prevention of dental caries," published in October repeated that dental fluorosis is an adverse effect of fluoridation, a practice which provides no benefit to adults or lower socio-economic groups. The Cochrane authors also wrote that the very small benefit they were able to document to children from "poor quality" studies at high risk of bias "may not be real." 

In other words, community water fluoridation is all risk and no benefit. Fluoridation is dental mythology, a magic potion tooth-fairy tale. The most important thing is that Judge Chen ordered the EPA to take action to eliminate the risk to consumers. 

 

  • UNSAFE: p. 2:  the Court finds that fluoridation of water at 0.7 milligrams per liter (“mg/L”) – the level presently considered “optimal” in the United States – poses an unreasonable risk of reduced IQ in children.

 

  • HAZARD: p 5:   The pooled benchmark dose analysis concluded that a 1-point drop in IQ of a child is to be expected for each 0.28 mg/L of fluoride in a pregnant mother’s urine. This is highly concerning, because maternal urinary fluoride levels for pregnant mothers in the United States range from 0.8 mg/L at the median and 1.89 mg/L depending upon the degree of exposure. Not only is there an insufficient margin between the hazard level and these exposure levels, for many, the exposure levels exceed the hazard level of 0.28 mg/L.

  • CERTAINTY: p. 77: The scientific literature in the record provides a high level of certainty that a hazard is present; fluoride is associated with reduced IQ. There are uncertainties presented by the underlying data regarding the appropriate point of departure and exposure level to utilize in this risk evaluation. But those uncertainties do not undermine the finding of an unreasonable risk; in every scenario utilizing any of the various possible points of departures, exposure levels and metrics, a risk is present in view of the applicable uncertainty factors that apply.

  • VULNERABILITY: p. 76: The size of the affected population is vast. Approximately 200 million Americans have fluoride intentionally added to their drinking water at a concentration of 0.7 mg/L. See Dkt. No. 421 at 206-07 (undisputed). Other Americans are indirectly exposed to fluoridated water through consumption of commercial beverages and food manufactured with fluoridated water

  • SUSCEPTIBILITY: p. 76: Approximately two million pregnant women, and over 300,000 exclusively formula-fed babies are exposed to fluoridated water. The number of pregnant women and formula-fed babies alone who are exposed to water fluoridation each year exceeds entire populations exposed to conditions of use for which EPA has found unreasonable risk; the EPA has found risks unreasonable where the population impacted was less than 500 people. 

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Bronze Conversationalist

'"It is public health malpractice to continue adding fluoride to community water systems."  -  Dr. Joseph Ladapo MD, PhD Florida Surgeon General (Nov. 22, 2024) 

 

 "This is a human rights issue and public health issue, separate from other public health issues." - Dr. Ashley Malin, PhD (Nov. 22, 2024) 

 

The Surgeon General of Florida announced yesterday that he was "appalled" at the evidence of harm caused by fluoridation policy which has been ignored for years. He announced that he was recommending that all water treatment plants(WTP) in Florida end fluoridation. immediately. 

 

Dr. Ladapo also said he always believed fluoridation was "safe and effective" because that was what he was taught, but that after looking closely at the science as a result of the September verdict agains the EPA and Bobby Kennedy's statements, he realizes that fluoridation is anything but safe and effective.  He went on to say that he and his family were taking measures to reduce their fluoride exposure

 

Yet, what do the fluoridation profiteers and their corporate partners do? They launch more smear campaigns in the media- against Joe Ladapo, Bobby Kennedy, or anyone else who challenges their profitable tooth-fairy tale.  

 

One of the fluoride-lobby claims, which they offered in court, is fluoride consumption might be harmful if the dose is at 1.5 mg/L or above but fluoridation concentrations in water is half that at 0.7 ppm. 

 

Let's make this clear:

1. Not only do some people drink more water than others, fluoride is in foods prepared with fluoridated water or treated with fluoridated agrichemicals. Dose is dependent on intake, not water concentration

  • This is why there is supposed to be a 10x safety factor applied to hazards like fluoride, although 100 is more typical. That would reduce the assumed safe concentration to 0.15 or 0.015 ppm.

 

2. The assumption of a dose of 0.7 mg/L is based on only one liter of fluoridated water consumed (and with a perfectly calibrated fluoride 0.7 ppm concentration)

 

3. The dose of 1.5 mg/L recognized as unsafe is reached by consuming a couple of mouthfuls over 2 liters of water

 

4. The rule of thumb medical advice is that a healthy adult should consume at least eight 8 ounce glasses of water daily (8x8), which provides just under 2 liters. A half glass more (or fluoride from another source) will bring you into the red zone. 

 

5. NASEM recommends fluid consumption, primarily water, be:

  1. About 15.5 cups (3.7 liters) of fluids a day for men
  2. About 11.5 cups (2.7 liters) of fluids a day for women

 

Go to FluorideLawsuit.com to see a copy of the verdict and a hyperlinked annotated bibliography of peer-reviewed science published in credible journals since 2015 documenting that fluoridation is DANGEROUS and INEFFECTIVE. and since it affects brains in the womb and is stored in our bones, fluoridation policy poisons us all from womb to tomb. 

 

Then tell the Surgeon General in your state that he should follow Dr. Ladapo's lead.  

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Periodic Contributor

If you tell a physician you dont want fluoroquinolones, they will honor it.  They know its black boxed.  I put it on my allergy list.  

 

Avelox, a fluoroquinolone, was given to my friend.  After a few doses, she developed numbness in her extremities.

 

General anesthesia uses a F bolus to help put you to sleep and wakes you up with CaCl to bind the F.  For some people, cognitive issues persist for 30 days or more until enough of the F dissipates from the body.

 

AARP needs to take this information, research it, and let seniors know the risks involved.  This is an extremely critical health information.

 

A Registered Nurse

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Bronze Conversationalist

"In this prospective birth cohort study from 6 cities in Canada, higher levels of fluoride exposure during pregnancy were associated with lower IQ scores in children measured at age 3 to 4 years. These findings were observed at fluoride levels typically found in white North American women. This indicates the possible need to reduce fluoride intake during pregnancy." - Conclusion in Green et al, 2019

 

"The problem is that it's an uncontrolled dose – everyone is exposed to different levels. It may be prudent for pregnant women to reduce ingesting fluoride during pregnancy.” - Christine Till, PhD (2018)

 

What advocates of fluoridation fail to take into consideration is that good scientists should take care to report data and facts, and although they can draw conclusions within the confines of the data, scientists should neither dictate medical treatment nor stray beyond what the data reveals. This is what Dr. Till is doing.

 

The other item that fluoridationists seem to have a problem with is that using municipal water to mass medicate the population is a violation of individual medical consent and as such constitutes medical assault on those who object or who are ignorant of the harm caused them, i.e. the unborn. 

 

FLUORIDATION ADVOCACY ORGANIZATIONS - (on AARP)

Johnny Johnson is the president of the American Fluoridation Society,501(c)(3),  created in 2015 to promote fluoridation policy. Apparently the AFS has assetts in excess of $100k. The same membership created the American Fluoridation Institute, a 501(c)(4), in 2019, apparently for further financial benefits and lobbying opportunities. 

 

Ken Perrott directed me to his other published fluoride related document (an opinion piece claiming that kids with dental fluorosis likely do badly in school because they disengage due to embarrassment over their unatractive teeth instead of because of neurological damage). His conflict of interest statement on that paper states that KenP's affiliation is Making Sense of Fluoride which he writes is an incorporated society in New Zealand that focuses on community water fluoridation.

 

The 3rd article that comes up in PubMed under KenP's name is not about fluoridation. This 1998 article is about coping mechanisms of those who experienced childhood sexual abuse. The author (KenP says it's a different KenP) proposes that reframing the abuse is generally a positive strategy. That is interesting because the language and approach our KenP uses in fluoridation reframes the discussion and fluoridationist lobbyists emphasize changing the topic to 'win' the debate, i.e. 'reframing.' 

Harm Wheel CWFHarm Wheel CWF

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Conversationalist

Carry Ann - you claim my paper Perrott, K. W. (2015). Severe dental fluorosis and cognitive deficits. Neurotoxicology and Teratology, 48, 78–79:

was "an opinion piece claiming that kids with dental fluorosis likely do badly in school because they disengage due to embarrassment over their unatractive teeth instead of because of neurological damage."

Not true. It was correspondence (not an opinion piece) responding to Choi et al. (2014) who reported no effect of drinking water on child IQ but an effect of dental of fluorosis on IQ. I was simply pointing out a limitation that the authors were considering only chemical toxicant mechanisms whereas physiological factors like tooth decay and dental fluorosis affecting appearance are known to influence the quality of life and could be considered as possible factors.

Indeed, in parts of Africa dental fluorosis is described as psychological fluorosis for this reason.

I find it significant that the Till, Grandjean, Choi, et al group seem to always ignore most non-chemical toxicant factors. Malin & Till (2105) also fell into that trap with their ADHD paper.

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CarryAnne, you say:

"What advocates of fluoridation fail to take into consideration is that good scientists should take care to report data and facts, and although they can draw conclusions within the confines of the data, scientists should neither dictate medical treatment nor stray beyond what the data reveals. This is what Dr. Till is doing."

I suspect you did not mean what you wrote at the end of this, although I agree that in her promotion of this work Christine Till is not behaving as an objective scientist.

I have no illusions about the politics of science and have written about it specifically regarding Till's work - see Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

 

Specifically, I am concerned that while she is definitely aware of the work of Huber et al (2015) and Perrott (2018) showing the relationship of ADHD prevalence to altitude and the lack of a relationship with fluoridation when this is considered she and her coauthors studiously ignore that research in their discussion.

 

I am also concerned that she appears to have responded to this be studiously refusing to include the full statistical analyses in the more recent papers. While this covers the fact that the reported relationships are extremely weak and therefore meaningless I do concede that she and her co-authors have published the data allowing others to do their own analyses. I suspect, though, that she will continue to ignore these critiques.

It is concerning that she and her coauthors also studiously refused td to comment on the fact their own figures show no effect of community water fluoridation on child IQ in the Green et al study. See the data extracted from their Table 1 [please ignore the (SD)].

table IQ.png
This is even more concerning because anti-fluoride campaigners have made claims completely in conflict with that data and, so far, Till has not repudiated those claims. See this recent billboard:

A New Zealand anti-fluoride billboard misrepresents the Green et al findingsA New Zealand anti-fluoride billboard misrepresents the Green et al findings


Finally, I am concerned at the poolcy of the journal where Green et al published. It now appears that it will not publish critiques or responses to the paper (They have a 4-week deadline) and this is sad because it interferes with peer review - I strongly believe that scientific peer review should continue after publication - see 
We need more post-publication peer review and that policy makes this far more difficult.

It is sad that the journal editor could only see discussion of this research in the non-scientific media instead of his journal.

 

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CarryAnne - could you please provide a link to this article you refer to - it is complete news to me as I have never published on his subject and have no ewx[pertise in the area:

"This 1998 article is about coping mechanisms of those who experienced childhood sexual abuse. KenP proposes that reframing the abuse is generally a positive strategy."

I appreciate you are not objectively looking at the literature and simply wishing to confirm biases (and attacking the man rather than the ball)- but this seems to be a huge mistake on your part. I suggest an apology is in order - especially as this claim could become another part of the list of fictional crimes I have committed in the view of the anti-fluoride campaigners. I can see your mate Geoff Pain confidently asserting this in his next false description of me.

My earlier fluoride publications (60s and 70s) were about reaction fo fluoride with minerals and soils. - not directly relevant to community water fluoridation. However, in the 2000s I did research fluorosilicic acid (as an acid extractant for heavy metals) and am therefore familiar with its reactions and the purity of the chemical used.

By the way - institutional affiliation is not a conflict of interest and never stated as such.

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Again Ken here retorts to attacking everyone else in an effort to swamp the truth by irrelevant minutiaea. He calls his own opinions, and his own papers, as proof of truth of the matter asserted. Then he calls the same as “intelligent discussion based on science”, when in reality this tactic is a circular argument and hearsay. To engage in a valid discussion, one needs to synthesize relevant sources, other than one’s own articles only, and mere attacks based on manipulations of data, as presented in the valid peer revieved studies. In reality, science speaks for itself, and concensus has been tipping on the side of the precautionary principle for a long time.

 

I just provided a new study, which “speaks for itself” and is not my own opinion or paper. However, the fluoride promoters have chosen to ignore this new highly relevant study, which again adds to the consensus thar fluorides are neurotoxic and harm the brain.

 

Again:

Strunecka & Strunecky (2019) aimed to provide evidence of fluoride (F-) neurotoxicity. They assessed the risk of chronic F exposure in the autism spectrum disorder (ASD) etiopathology and investigated the role of metabolic and mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress and inflammation, immunoexcitotoxicity, and decreased melatonin levels. These symptoms have been observed both after chronic F exposure as well as in ASD. Moreover, they showed that F in synergistic interactions with aluminum’s free metal cation (Al3+) can reinforce the pathological symptoms of ASD. This reinforcement takes place at concentrations several times lower than when acting alone. A high ASD prevalence has been reported from countries with water fluoridation as well as from endemic fluorosis areas. Thus, Strunecka & Strunecky (2019) suggest focusing the ASD prevention on the reduction of the F and Al3+ burdens from daily life.

 

Reference:
Strunecka, A. & Strunecky, O. (2019). Chronic Fluoride Exposure and the Risk of Autism Spectrum Disorder, Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health,16(18), 3431. doi:10.3390/ijerph16183431

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/18/3431/htm

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sirpac - I have not attacked anyone - I suspect you are simply feeling that my identification of problems in studies is an attack but that is the way scientists work. Data, hypotheses, and conclusion are put up for discussion. Discussion is helpful - it is not a personal attack.

You are wrong to call the very high scatter in the Green et al relationship, the very low explanatory power of that relationship, the fact that Malin & Till's relationship with fluoridation disappears when other risk-modifying factors are included  "irrelevant minutiaea." Those facts are extremely important and should be considered by the authors and their supporters.

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“This is a very well-conducted study, and it raises serious concerns about fluoride supplementation in water” - Dr. Leonardo Trasande, a pediatrician and reknowned expert in  environmental exposures and children's health at New York University Langone Health on Bashash et al. (Sept 2017)

 

"There have been similar findings related to exposure to fluoride and IQ from children in China. So this observation or association has been reported before. - Dr. Linda Birnbaum, Director of the National Institute of Environmental Health Science on Bashash et al. (Sept 2017)

 

"The mission of the journal is to ensure that child health is optimized by bringing the best available evidence to the fore... This study is neither the first, nor will it be the last, to test the association between prenatal fluoride exposure and cognitive development." - Dr. Dimitri Christakis, editor in chief of JAMA Pediatrics (August 2019)

 

“It’s actually very similar to the effect size that’s seen with childhood exposure to lead.” - Dr. David Bellinger, senior scientist in environmental health and neurology at the Harvard School of Public Health on Green et al. (August 2019)

 

The irony in KenP's repeated insistance that everyone should read his blog post 'critiques' that refute the findings of a series of high-quality U.S. government sponsored studies is that KenP claims that he isn't influenced by the opinions of anyone else... Notice that KenP is spending a lot of time trying to influence participants in American social media with his non-peer-reviewed and self-published opinions. I believe his only published paper on this topic is an interesting attempt to disappear the evidence by adding elevation into the equation - his numbers appear correct in that one item, but it also could be totally meaningless to the question at hand. 

 

In any event, I suggest the opinions of experts such as those quoted above and the peer-reviewed published papers of expert teams from presitgous American and Canadian universities are better sources of truth than the blog of a retired agricultural chemist from New Zealand. 

 

See sources attached to this opinion item, We Too: Medical Assault and Battery

 

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CarryAnne, I will just remind you of an important quote you presented here:

“When studying any matter, ask yourself two things: what are the facts and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, or what you think would have beneficent social effects if it were believed. Look only and solely at what are the facts.” -  Bertrand Arthur William Russell, logician and Nobel laureate on evidence and data analysis (1959)

As I said at the time this is so true. And in fact, that is the attitude all credible scientists take - to look at the evidence, data, discussion, logic. Not rely on "authority" statements, promotions, unsupported claims, etc.

This is the attitude I take so, please, be aware that your continued resorting to "authority" statements mean nothing to me. Show me the data.

And in this respect, this data from Green et al is what should be discussed - especially the huge scatter of the data and the fact the best fit line is meaningless in terms of prediction.
Canada 1.jpg
I am glad you accept the fact shown in Perrott (2018) that inclusion of elevation in the regression of Marlin & Till (2015) shows that fluoridation has absolutely no effect. Of course, this does not prove a cause for elevation - but it does show that the relationship reported by Malin & Till was false.

Of course, if you prefer opinions instead of intelligently considering the evidence that is your prerogative and, while it is unscientific, it is the usual approach anti-fluoridationists take. But one can select opinions to suit any bias.

In the end, the only thing of value is the data.

[Incidentally, I have several other peer-reviewed publications on fluoride - look them up - one of them relevant to IQ - Perrott, K. W. (2015). Severe dental fluorosis and cognitive deficits. Neurotoxicology and Teratology, 48, 78–79.]

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Despite of any techical issues or minor inaccuracies, the real issue is why does fluoridation continue, when there is no valid evidence of safety or effectiveness? All the polemics aside, this is a serious issue and not a matter of opinion. 

 

Since there are now hundreds of studies

establishing harm, and none to establish safety, then even if there were some ridiculous benefit of adding these highly toxic chemicals in to the water supplies, such practice would still violate all the basic ethical principles. These principles are based on informed consent and such consent belongs to individuals, not to any state or other governing body. 

 

Thus, why do the fluoridationist and fluoride promoters insists on stumping over individual rights? It appears the US does not respect such individual rights, or ethics, as long as the fluoride poisoning continues. 

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Periodic Contributor

I agree with sirpac. 

 

There is no valid evidence for safety and effectiveness studies for ingesting a pharmaceutical grade or a non-pharmaceutical fluoride.   Harm has been established and further studies are needed.  If a physician who has respect for the JAMA study is concerned, why do the fluoride promoters protest with such vigor?  What is the agenda of fluoride promoters?  Their agenda does not seem to be public safety or safety of the children.  It appears they are insistent on defending an outdated policy without taking a breath to consider the big picture of harm.  The fluoride promoters’ arguments are the same after every study showing the potential for harm.

 

There are other ways to help the teeth than by contaminating the drinking water for all people thereby stomping on individual rights.  I think the fluoride promoters would best turn their energy to other ways to help the children whose parents cannot figure out the importance or the technique of how to brush their teeth.

 

Dr. Berry – watch his sensible video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSTTQKo6jxc            

 

AARP, take note of these things and offer a sensible piece in your bulletin.                  

 

A registered nurse.

 

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Regular Contributor

Maybe it's time for JAMA Peds Editor Christakis to begin listening to what Christine Till is having to say now about drinking fluoridated water:

 

MONDAY, Aug. 19, 2019 (HealthDay News) -- Fluoride exposure from drinking water during pregnancy could be making children less intelligent, a new Canadian study argues.

Pregnant women should consider reducing their exposure to fluoride, Till said. That might include avoiding public water sources that are fluoridated, since those account for 70% of fluoride exposure in adults.

WebMD

 

 

September 14, 2019

“I think this message could be easily misconstrued as us saying don’t drink fluoridated water — we’re not saying that,” study author Christine Till, professor of psychology at York University in Toronto, told BuzzFeed News.

 

 

If Till has changed her tune on drinking fluoridated water, how can the Editor of JAMA Peds stick to his medical statement to avoid it?

 

Johnny Johnson, Jr., DMD, MS

Pediatric Dentist

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Periodic Contributor

In an environmental context, the precautionary principle can be defined as such: when an identified threat of serious or irreversible damage to the environment or human health exists, a lack of full scientific knowledge about the situation should not be used to delay remedial steps if the balance of potential costs and benefits justifies action (Resnik, 2003).

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Bronze Conversationalist

Perhaps Till does not want to take a stand on a govenrment, police protected policy and face fluoridationist rancor and criticism. This interferes with investigations a scientst wants to do. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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New Autism study again condemning fluoridation!


Abstract:
The continuous rise of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) prevalent in the past few decades is causing an increase in public health and socioeconomic concern. A consensus suggests the involvement of both genetic and environmental factors in the ASD etiopathogenesis. Fluoride (F) is rarely recognized among the environmental risk factors of ASD, since the neurotoxic effects of F are not generally accepted. Our review aims to provide evidence of F neurotoxicity. We assess the risk of chronic F exposure in the ASD etiopathology and investigate the role of metabolic and mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress and inflammation, immunoexcitotoxicity, and decreased melatonin levels. These symptoms have been observed both after chronic F exposure as well as in ASD. Moreover, we show that F in synergistic interactions with aluminum’s free metal cation (Al3+) can reinforce the pathological symptoms of ASD. This reinforcement takes place at concentrations several times lower than when acting alone. A high ASD prevalence has been reported from countries with water fluoridation as well as from endemic fluorosis areas. We suggest focusing the ASD prevention on the reduction of the F and Al3+ burdens from daily life.

Reference:
Strunecka, A. & Strunecky, O. (2019). Chronic Fluoride Exposure and the Risk of Autism Spectrum Disorder, Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health,16(18), 3431. doi:10.3390/ijerph16183431

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/18/3431/htm

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Trusted Contributor

It appears that the fluoride poromoters are complaining about their “criticisms not being heard”, when in reality regardless of the overwhelming science that condems fluoridation and the FDA not having approved such practices, fluoridation continues without justification or even slight (or any valid) evidence of any true benefit. Thus, overwhelming or denigrating opponents is the means to stifle truth now by the polluters. 

 

If even fluoridated salt can cause IQ loss, and brain damage in developing brains, then what will daily exposure to silicofluorides in the public water do?

 

Per Bashash et al. (2018): 
Fluoride, the ionized form of the halogen element fluorine, exists widely in the environment and is the most electronegative and reactive among all elements (ATSDR, 2010). Its well-known cariostatic effect led to the addition of fluoride to water, salt, and milk in some countries. Other sources of fluoride include dental products, such as toothpastes, mouth rinses, and varnishes, supplements, processed foods made with fluoridated water, fluoride-containing pesticides, teas, and fluorinated pharmaceuticals. Systemic ingestion of fluoride through water and water-based beverages is the main source of fluoride intake, accounting for approximately 75% of dietary fluoride intake among adults living in communities that fluoridate their water supply in the United States (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, 2010; USDA (U.S. Department of Agriculture), 2005). However, in Mexico City, individuals are primarily exposed to fluoride through fluoridated salt (mean concentration of fluoride in salt is 250 ± 50 ppm), and to varying degrees of naturally-occurring fluoride in water, which have been reported to range from 0.15 to 1.38 mg/L (Juárez-López et al., 2007; Martinez-Mier et al., 2005). Public water supplies are not fluoridated in Mexico and the mean fluoride content of the water supply is not publicly available.

 

Reference:
Bashash, M., Marchand, M., Hu, H., Till, C., Martinez-Mier, E. A., Sanchez, B. N., ... Téllez-Rojo, M. M. (2018). Prenatal fluoride exposure and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in children at 6–12 years of age in Mexico City. Environment International, 121, 658–666. doi: 10.1016/J.ENVINT.2018.09.017
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30316181
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018311814?via%3Dihub

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Conversationalist

sirpac - you say:

"If even fluoridated salt can cause IQ loss, and brain damage in developing brains, then what will daily exposure to silicofluorides in the public water do?"

Where is the credible evidence "fluoridated salt" causes IQ loss? (Notice the word "credible). And what is this about "silicofluorides in the public water?" Did you not realise the existence of these species in a dilute form in water is chemically impossible.

As for the Bashash paper - why do you quote the first paragraph in the introduction and label it an abstract?

For a critique of that paper read: 

Evidence linking attention deficit hyperactivity disorder with community water fluoridation is poor

You will notice like most of these studies the reported relationships are extremely weak - although in this case the 3 to 4% explanation of variance is better than in their other studies.

It is also very likely that this study ignored some important risk modifying factors. Perrott, K. W. (2018). Fluoridation and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder a critique of Malin and Till (2015). British Dental Journal, 223(11), 819–822 showed how inclusion of important factors (in this case altitude) removed any relationship of ADHD with fluoridation.

One needs to read these studies critically and intelligently.

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“When studying any matter, ask yourself two things: what are the facts and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, or what you think would have beneficent social effects if it were believed. Look only and solely at what are the facts.” -  Bertrand Arthur William Russell, logician and Nobel laureate on evidence and data analysis (1959)
 
KenP - So after several comments attacking my veracitiy, even claiming I'm generating fake news despite my repeatedly providing the link to my source, you admit you hadn't followed the link before making your false claim. Your latest responses after finally checking the source aren't exactly word salad because they are coherent, but they so misrepresent the material with your "assumptions" that it's hard to see how you could rationally arrive at your claims. 
 
First, there is nothing "unprecedented" or exceptional about either the fact that there was a podcast or editorial meetings associated with the MIREC study by Green et al. The editors do a monthly podcast on 1 or 2 articles in JAMA Pediatrics. Moreover, mentioning the several statistical reviews in that podcast was not an offhand remark - the stated intent of this 12 minute podcast which was entirely devoted to the MIREC study was to explain the behind the scenes due diligence to ensure that the quality of the study was up to JAMA Pediatrics standards - which it was. Despite your claims that no one at JAMA Pediatrics or even the researchers who conducted the study were competent, the handling of the data was impeccable. 
 
As far as your personal armchair analysis of the study data, any analysis that relies on unadjusted estimates is meaningless because adjusted estimates from the regression model that control for all the factors that can influence IQ is what reveals significant patterns. Consideration of how many potential confounders were controlled is standard in review methods, such as the Cochrane reviews. Cochrane rates the quality of studies and their analyses.
 
KenP, that you rely totally on unadjusted data in your critique of this MIREC study is either a major blunder or overt manipulation, especially in this study that had several confounders such as higher maternal education in the fluoridated group. Confounders like this would obscure loss in IQ. Green et al., on the other hand, did it right.  Given the stature of the JAMA Network, I'm sure the "several" independent and professional statistical analyses that JAMA contracted did it right, too. 
 
But even without that fatal flaw in your critique, KenP, any analysis that controlled for zero potential confounders like yours, KenP, would be rated at very “high risk of bias” by Cochrane or any other competent reviewer and would less likely be published by any competent journal. It  certainly would not be published by a high quality journal like JAMA Pediatrics.  
 
I like data, but I am very aware of the data manipulation by biased players and so pay close attention to both the data and language used. I suggest your choice of language in social media and your quick criticisms of any comment that disagrees with you without even checking sources, as well as your non-standard handling of data confirms your pro-fluoridation bias as fact and suggests that you are afraid  the truth in the science published by both the MIREC and ELEMENT projects will not reflect well on your hobby of championing fluoridation policy by throwing stones at people and studies that disagree with your point of view. 
 
For more on truth revealed by the high-quality MIREC and ELEMENT studies relevant to fluoridation policy, see:  https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/wetoo-medical-assault-and-battery 
 
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Conversationalist

CarryAnne, Love the quote from Betrand Russell. Sums up my whole approach. Facts, data, evidence are what should ground us.

As you will notice this has been my whole approach in this and other discussions. I have approached my analysis of the Green et al. paper by looking at, and dealing with, the data. I am not influenced by authority statements - either from the author, coauthors, editor or those who had early access to the paper and set out to promote it.

An Editorial note is unprecedented, as this editor specifically said. it is not something I have come across before in my extensive research and publication experience. 

I have written in detail about the handling of the data - I obviously do not agree with your unsupported claim this was "impeccable." But then again I deal with the facts, evidence, data - not personal "authority" assurances. And the fact that the editorial review was contentious (and the editor specifically mentioned contentious statistical review) surely supports my point.

Yes, the mean IQ values provided in Table 1 are not "adjusted" - how could they be. They are plain means, not the result of a regression model.

Yes, in the regression model adjustment for other confounders did influence the association or coefficient - it reduced it (from -2.6 to -1.95 for all children, from -5.01 to -4.49 for boys and about the same 2.23 to 2.40 for girls).

This is quite normal. When a model includes a range of risk-modifying factors that influence the outcome the correlation coefficients for a particular factor is reduced compared for unadjusted regressions. Sometimes, as in the case of the Malin & Till (2015) ADHD paper, adjustment actually removes an association completely. (In this case, their reported association of ADHD with fluoridation disappeared completely when the altitude was included in the adjustment - see Perrott, K. W. (2018). Fluoridation and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder a critique of Malin and Till (2015). British Dental Journal, 223(11), 819–822).

Apart from the fact that reference to adjustment is irrelevant to simple mean values it is surely straw grasping to talk about adjustment in the vain hope of converting a non-significant difference into a large difference. But I notice a few anti-fluoride campaigners are now starting to attempt this with a vague reference to "adjustment."

More worrying to me is the fact that the authors did not even refer to that specific data in their discussion. If there was an argument based on "adjustments" that would have been the place for it to be made.

But another, more political, point. There is nothing in the Green et al study to justify the claims of anti-fluoride campaigners in New Zealand that the study shows that "Fluoridated water lowers kid's IQ."  Quite the opposite. That claim is completely wrong and will probably lead to action from our advertising authority. It is false scaremongering - probably why several local authorities have ordered the offending billboards be taken down.

Your claim that I have only concentrated on the mean values form the papers Table 1 is completely wrong. I have spent some time showing that the regression analysis used by Green et al produces a best-fit line explaining only 1.3% of the variance in IQ. This is a fundamental and important point. This, together with the suspect nature of the regression (the data was not normally distributed so probably violated an inherent assumption) means that the much-touted value of the regression coefficient is meaningless. A simple look at the figures published in the paper confirms that assessment (see below). How could the much-touted coefficient of 4.49 predict the real values?


CarryAnne, I do not see you engage properly with any data. You instead rely almost exclusively on "authority" statements. While that is normal for anti-fluoride campaigners it is extremely poor behavior for any scientists. In fact, it is not at all scientific.

I leave you with this graph from the Green et al. (2109) paper which surely shows that the claims based on the best-fit line have absolutely no predictive power. They are meaningless. It is surely significant that the anti-fluoride campaigners promoting and misinterpreting this paper never show this data.

Canada 1.jpg

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Ken

 

You remind me of Donald Trump when you say,  

"I am not influenced by authority statements - either from the author, coauthors, editor or those who had early access to the paper and set out to promote it."

 

Then I assume you do not agree with any research unless you did it yourself.

 

Authors, peer review, consistent multiple studies all mean nothing to you unless the results fit within your bias, gut feeling.  I call that "Trumpian science."

 

Too many are ingesting too much fluoride and they are being harmed.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

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CarryAnne and Ken,

 

Your comment is both respecful and accurate, gentle and firm.  

 

KenP has confirmational bias to the extreme.  

 

Ken asked me to debate him on his blog and I agreed, but I chose the topic "excess fluoride exposure."  First he dodged claiming his computer had problems.  I sent him my side of the first debate and he has refused to respond.  The simple answer is too many are ingesting too much fluoride as reported by several streams of evidence.  Excess fluoride does not confim KenP's bias so he refuses to investigate and comment.

 

Instead, KenP is refusing to look at the "weight of evidence" and "streams of evidence" and his research limitations.

 

For example, Ken P should consider the JAMA Editor noted regarding the Green et al study.  Remember, this Journal has promoted fluoride, most of their members promote fluoride.  I have had them speak publicly in favor of fluoridation when I spoke opposed.   JAMA is a pro fluoride Journal.  

 

To speak up against what they have promoted did not come lightly.  In effect, they are admitting they may have been wrong.  Not easy for anyone.

 

The Editor wrote:

"This decision to publish this article was not easy. Given the nature of the findings and their potential implications, we subjected it to additional scrutiny for its methods and the presentation of its findings. The mission of the journal is to ensure that child health is optimized by bringing the best available evidence to the fore. Publishing it serves as testament to the fact that JAMA Pediatrics is committed to disseminating the best science based entirely on the rigor of the methods and the soundness of the hypotheses tested, regardless of how contentious the results may be. That said, scientific inquiry is an iterative process. It is rare that a single study provides definitive evidence. This study is neither the first, nor will it be the last, to test the association between prenatal fluoride exposure and cognitive development. We hope that purveyors and consumers of these findings are mindful of that as the implications of this study are debated in the public arena."
 
The Editor also included a pod cast, short and informative.  https://edhub.ama-assn.org/jn-learning/audio-player/17802991
 
Harvard Professor Dr. David Bellinger provided an editorial piece (JAMA August 19, 2019) noting:
"The hypothesis that fluoride is a neurodevelopmental toxicant must now be given serious consideration…It is instructive to recall that the hypothesis that subclinical lead exposures pose a neurodevelopmental hazard was bitterly contested in the 1980s and 1990s, and it was only the weight of evidence that eventually accumulated that led to the now widely held consensus that no level of lead exposure is safe…If the hypothesis is true, the implications are worrisome. Exposure to fluoride has increased substantially in recent decades…If the effect sizes reported by Green et al and others are valid, the total cognitive loss at the population level that might be associated with children’s prenatal exposure to fluoride could be substantial."
 
The problem I think Ken has is considering the "weight of evidence and combining that with the "streams of evidence."   
 
When it comes to risk, harm, researchers cannot knowinging cause harm to evaluate safety.  Therefore, judgment must be used on the weight of evidence from all streams of evidence.  
 
Some streams which must be included, are:
 
1.  Too many ingesting too much fluoride. (EPA, NRC, CDC, etc)
 
2.  Research on efficacy is incomplete, low to moderate quality.  Percentages are used as gee whiz marketing rather than absolute numbers.
 
3.  Fluoridation may not reduce dental expenses.  No high quality studies.
 
4.  Fluoride, according to many studies, is a known carcinogen.  Yes, more research would be good, but the low to moderate studies have weight.
 
5.  Fluoride makes teeth harder, delays diagnosis of caries, increases bone fracture.  Yes, more research would be good, but the low to moderate studies have weight.
 
6.  Fluoride reduces IQ.  Yes, more research would be good, but the more than 50 low to moderate studies are over 90% consistent which adds weight.
 
7.  Supplementation of fluoride without consent, without knowing whether the patient has dental fluorosis, swallows toothpaste, has high levels of fluoride in their urine or is chemically sensitive is ignored. . . the motto is "give everyone more fluoride regardless of whether they are ingesting too much."
 
The weight of evidence from all streams makes the issue of fluoridation mute.  Fluoridation of public water must stop, at least until quality research confirms safety for all.  Fluoridation is not the only source of fluoride and an individual can ingest more fluoride from other sources if they want.    
 
Fluoridation is the worst case of big government thinking they know what is best for everyone and individuals are too stupid to make health care decisions on their own.
 
Ken, look at all streams of evidence.  Look at the weight of evidence.  Consider Green et al is one of many studies and goes against the JAMA past bias.  Consider your evaluation of Green just might be incomplete.
 
Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

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Bill,  you say:

"Ken asked me to debate him on his blog and I agreed, but I chose the topic "excess fluoride exposure."  First he dodged claiming his computer had problems.  I sent him my side of the first debate and he has refused to respond."



That is completely incorrect. You have completely misrepresented the situation and I ask you, as a matter of good faith, to correct this. My offer to you for an exchange on my blog was repeated as recently as last month in this forum. (See post 101) when I wrote:

" I am interested in critiquing the dental fluorosis argument – specifically the Neurath paper you rely on in your article – so I am keen for the exchange to go ahead."

Anyone interested to the truth in this matter should refer to the email exchange between Bill and me which is reproduced in that post 101 (at the moment the link is https://community.aarp.org/t5/Brain-Health/Fluoride-Demand-AARP-Take-Action/td-p/1528688/highlight/t... but this probably changes as more posts are made. Just page 


This is the second or third time I have had to deal with this particular misrepresentation, Bill. I said last time (in post 101):

"I repeat I do not appreciate the misrepresentation you have indulged in, Bill, or the resort to abusive terms. These should not be used in a scientific exchange – another reason why I think the Open Parachute blog is the best place for such an exchange."

I think your persistent misrepresentation in this matter (the facts of which are easy to verify) says something about your whole approach to this exchange. How can one participate in a respectful exchange when there is no good faith, or any respect for the truth, on the part of one's discussion partner.

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KenP,

 

You say, "You have completely misrepresented the situation" regarding a fluoride debate and that I am completely wrong.   Sorry, I'm very busy and must have missed your answers and documentation on:

 

1.  How much total fluoride exposure is necessary for dental caries prevention? Desired individual dosage?  (mg/kg/day)

 

2.  How much fluoride is too much and based on what evidence?

 

3.  What government agency determines the safe and effective dosage of chemicals/substances and gives approval with cautions and warnings?

 

I sent you many references and streams of evidence and have not seen your response.  If you post responses somewhere in social media, please also send it to my email address so I don't miss it.

 

Ken, you seem to be intent on showing how research is flawed which finds fluoridation is harmful or excessive.  Yet I don't hear you present any high quality studies on safety, efficacy or dosage.  Do you agree with any research?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH 

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Hello everyone,

 

Whilst we welcome robust debate, we ask that everyone abides by the guidelines.

 

Please be respectful and refrain from making hateful and/or incendiary comments. You are free to express your opinions, but you must do so in a way that respects the opinions of others.

https://community.aarp.org/t5/custom/page/page-id/Guidelines

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There is no basis upon which to make the claim that has been made by fluoridation promoters, that the urinary fluoride study proves that water fluoridation does not decrease IQ. This is inane. The study did not include people who had systemic fluoride levels and urine fluoride levels reflective of normal controls in more typical nonfluoridated areas. Therefore the claim that "fluoridation" does not decrease IQ is, as I said, nuts.

The difference in urine fluoride is far more reliable as a chemical measurement even though it is criticized in the previous post.

Also I think the readers are perfecxtly clear that I do NOT disagree with the authors of the study, that is, that a 1 ppm increase in maternal urine fluoride is associated with a significant several point drop in IQ in male offspring.  The authors are far more in tune with their data and trustworthy than the critic.

Finally, if a larger urine fluoride difference had been present, all previously published well controlled studies indicate even a larger IQ drop would have been found.

Clear?

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard, you are playing with words. The anti-fluoride people are NOT claiming "that the urinary fluoride study proves that water fluoridation does not decrease IQ." They are claiming the exact opposite.

The point is that there is absolutely no evidence in this study that fluoridated water lowers kid's IQ" as they are specifically claiming about the study. The billboard is presenting a lie.

I noticed you refused to answer my questions relating to your attempt to draw conclusions from the urinary F data relevant to fluoridation. And you avoid the extremely weak nature of the association involved. (You will recall I called out Malin & Till for the association they reported (and they had R-squared values of about 22 to 34%. Even so, their claimed relationship of ADHD with fluoridation disappeared when better risk-modifying factors were included).

The statistical analysis indicates that the data in the Green et al paper was not distributed normally, the variance was too high for that according to the probability distribution. This, together with the extremely weak nature of the association (R-squared around 1%) means the result is really meaningless and will be seen as such by the experts.

You are busily avoiding the elephant in the room - the weak nature of the reported relationship and the questionable regression used to obtain it.

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What? Read the post. I said fluoridation promoters. Of course those opposed to fluoridation make no such claim.

A small effect is noticed with a small F increase. So what? F levels in controls, from drinking tea, or whatever, predict a small effect from a small additional increase in F from fluoridation above that level  And a low r^2 does not disprove its reality. Who says it must be linear? And any small effect can have a low correlatiom coefficienr even wben the effect is real. 

As stated before the controlled mammal studies prove F'd water incduces brain abnormality. You can't get a perfect study like those in humans who cannot be caged.

Stop changing what i state to suit your own needs.

.

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard - read my post and stop diverting. In fact, the anti-fluoride campaigners are telling lies about the Green et al paper as my photo of their local billboard shows. It is likely they will be asked by the advertising authority to remove these billboards - several local authorities have already ordered them down. And the local media is very critical of the scaremongering involved in their advertising.

They are simply scare-mongering, in the worst possible way targeting children and pregnant woman, and they are simply lying. The study says nothing of the sort - in fact, the data shows no effect of fluoridation - as you admit. The local anti-fluoride peop[le have really misjudged the situation this time and will find it very difficult to recover from this.

Who says it must be linear - not me and I found a more normal distribution of the data using partial log transformation. The authors acknowledge the data was not perfectly normal but judged they should not transform the data (they say because of difficulty in interpreting a model but more probably because the transformed data was unlikely to show a relationship).

A low R-squared value shows that the relationship is incapable of explaining much of the variance - in this case only 1% which is extremely weak. It is telling the authors did not discuss the R-squared values and relied simply on p-values which can be very misleading.

I have not commented on the correlation coefficient, low or high is immaterial. The relationship is so weak and the regression so questionable I do not believe we can extract any meaning from that coefficient.


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