AARP and the photographers of Magnum Photos look at older people living in new ways around the world in A New Age.

Reply
Frequent Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
202
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

202 Views
Message 41 of 1,372

A US Biotastsitics PhD student has also extracted data from the paper's figures and produced a similar linear regression to mine. He is doing a more sophisticated analysis though.

https://twitter.com/AdamKruchten/status/1163852901124464640



He concludes that once the large and unexplained difference due to sex is considered there is no effect due to fluoride on IQ ("The answer is a resounding no in the digitized data.")

It is good to see others are on the case.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
202
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
209
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

209 Views
Message 42 of 1,372

You obviously didn't bother checking out the F content of the Kamrath Blue-Green Algae.

Anyway, please provide citations/quotes, etc. when you claim something I have written - I always like to check I haven't been misrepresented.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
209
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
202
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

202 Views
Message 43 of 1,372

CarryAnne, my pointing out to Bill that he is just as capable as I am of checking recommended dietary uptake figures is hardly a refusal to respond.

Fortunately Bill has agreed to participate in an open, uncensored scientific exchage with me on the blog Open Parachute. This will provide proper space for a good scientific exchange of the sort I ahde woith Paul Connett (you can read that exchange in the document - Connett & Perrott, 2014 The Fluoride Debate. This has had thousands of reads and many downloads so obviously fulfills a purpose for both opponents and supporters of CWF).

Bill can introduce and discuss the recommended dietary intake values there - just as he will also be able to discuss his take on the dental fluorosis issue. I, of course, will have the right of reply.

I strongly believe such open exchanges are far more valuable than the sort of cherry-picking and opinion citing that goes on in social media columns like this.

In fact, I would be just as open to that sort of exchange with you if you felt confident in actually discussing the scientific evidence.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
202
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
204
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

204 Views
Message 44 of 1,372

sirpac271999 - are you attempting to claim that the published figures do not accurately portray the data used?

Or have you somehow construed my comment the picture me using a graphical; extraction program to do a statistical analysis.

You are obviously attempting to ignore the facts I have presented.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
204
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
2
Kudos
206
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

206 Views
Message 45 of 1,372

Ken,

 

Good questions.  

JAMA Pediatrics published the article and I have looked at three other items.

 

The JAMA Pediatrics Editor published a Note on the study.

The Editors also put a 12 minute podcast together regarding the study.

And Ballinger, well known toxicologist wrote a commentary.

 

I sent them to you in an email because I don't have time to link them here.

 

I can fix teeth, I can't fix brains.

 

The study of harm is much more difficult than benefit.  

No money in learning not to purchase or sell a product.

Causing harm can't be studdied.

 

Fluoride is an experiment with a highly toxic substance and little to no research.

 

I'm actually shocked at how clueless the MD's are on fluoride.  They endorse it but don't study it.

 

And then again, that was me a couple decades ago.  So much to learn, we must be humble because we certainly don't know everything.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

Report Inappropriate Content
2
Kudos
206
Views
Silver Conversationalist
0
Kudos
230
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

230 Views
Message 46 of 1,372

Science does not work that way. One cannot use some external software, such as a Webplot digitizer, and expect to complete a valid regression analysis. The researcher has to have the original raw data to complete a valid regression analysis. As for the Green et al. (2019) study, the authors explain the methods, results, and controls very clearly and the publisher had verified the results. That is all hard work that takes a lot of time and effort. Thus, there is no question as to the results.

 

Ken,

If you wish to do a replication study, then do one and do it properly. However, you cannot take someone else's study and use some external means to twist the data and the results in whatever way you would like. You can write a proper paper, using proper statistical methods to arrive at conclusions based on a valid analysis of the raw data, that was obtained by proper means. However, you cannot do what you just claimed you did. No-one has any idea what data you may have plucked in to get your conclusions. Thus, such claims are nothing but bogus. 

 

On the bright side, NPR has a good discussion regarding the Green et al. (2019) study. Here is the link:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/08/19/752376080/can-maternal-fluoride-consumption-dur...

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
230
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
238
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

238 Views
Message 47 of 1,372

Bill - you say "They went through more than one peer review and this was done under guidelines of two governments. "

Are you privy to information about the review process used?

I would be interested to know the details. Especially if, as you say, they had to use an extra review?

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
238
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
0
Kudos
230
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

230 Views
Message 48 of 1,372

sirpac271999 - just extract the data from the figures using something like WebPlot digitizer.

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
230
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
1
Kudos
220
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

220 Views
Message 49 of 1,372

Ken,

 

If they way you twist the data is correct, send it to JAMA Pediatrics and the authors and I'm sure they will withdraw the study.

 

Do you realize how hard it was for the Journal to publish something so contrary to Public Health Policy and Ken P's belief, et al?   

 

They went through more than one peer review and this was done under guidelines of two governments.  

 

Sure, the study has limitations, as all safety studies do.  But this study has been a long time under review by many experts in various fields, some pro fluoride researchers.  Yet they agreed on the data, the statistics and the conclusion.

 

If they came to your conclusion, contrary to most fluoride/IQ studies, then I would question their data.  For example, testing a 3 year old's IQ seems a real stretch for me.  But the child experts say IQ testing can be done and reasonably reliable.

 

Ken, you have made at least one fatal flaw in playing with the numbers.    You may think the world is flat, but take a trip. . . When I was in NZ everyone was hanging upside down, so I know the world is round!!!!!

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
220
Views
Silver Conversationalist
0
Kudos
193
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

193 Views
Message 50 of 1,372

I am curious how KenP could have done the regression analysis here without the raw data? Based on just the figures that the authors have published in the Green et al. (2019) article?

 

I have acess to SPSS 25 (IBM, 2019) statistical software and would be happy to do the same, if there actually were the raw data that would be available. Yet, you cannot deduce what such raw data may be based on the results.

 

Reference:
Green, R., Lanphear, B., Hornung, R., Flora, D., Martinez-Mier, E.A., Nuefeld, R., Ayotte, P., Muckle, G., & Till, C. (2019). Association Between Maternal Fluoride Exposure During Pregnancy and IQ Scores in Offspring in Canada. JAMA Pediatrics, doi:10.1001/jamapediatrics.2019.1729

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2748634#224604298

 

Report Inappropriate Content
0
Kudos
193
Views
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Users
Announcements

Have a question about AARP membership or benefits? Ask it in the AARP Help Membership forum, Benefits & Discounts forum, or General forum.


multiple white question marks with center red question mark