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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 21 of 1,448

Thank you for that insight Carry Anne! Why would anyone listen to biased voices from venally interested parties? Obviously they have an agenda different than “health of the population” or “truth” for that matter. Thus, why to even argue with such biased voices? I won’t anymore. 

 

As for science, fluoridated antibiotics have been shown to cause arterial aneurisms. This new study was just published:

 

Abstract:

Background
Recent studies have linked fluoroquinolones (FQs) to cardiac adverse events, including aortic dissection and aneurysm. To date, whether FQs can increase the risk of aortic or mitral regurgitation has not been studied.

Objectives
This disproportionality analysis and case-control study examined whether FQs increase the risk of aortic and mitral regurgitation.

Methods
Data from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s adverse reporting system database was used to undertake a disproportionality analysis, and a random sample of 9,053,240 patients from the U.S. PharMetrics Plus database (IQVIA) was used for the matched nested case-control study. Current FQ exposure implied an active prescription at the index date or 30 days prior to the event date. Recent FQ exposure was defined as FQ use within days 31 to 60 and past within days 61 to 365 prior to the event date. Rate ratios (RRs) were compared to users of amoxicillin and azithromycin. Conditional logistic regression was used to compute RRs adjusting for confounders.

Results
The reported odds ratio for the disproportionality analysis was 1.45 (95% confidence interval [CI]: 1.20 to 1.77). A total of 12,505 cases and 125,020 control subjects were identified in the case-control study. The adjusted RRs for current users of FQ compared with amoxicillin and azithromycin users were 2.40 (95% CI: 1.82 to 3.16) and 1.75 (95% CI: 1.34 to 2.29), respectively. The adjusted RRs for recent and past FQ users when compared with amoxicillin were 1.47 (95% CI: 1.03 to 2.09) and 1.06 (95% CI: 0.91 to 1.21), respectively.

Conclusions
These results show that the risk of aortic and mitral regurgitation is highest with current use followed by recent use. No risk was observed with past use of FQs. Future studies are necessary to confirm or refute these associations.

 

Reference:

Etminan, M., Sodhi, M., Ganjizadeh-Zavareh, S., Carleton, B., Kezouh, A. & Brophy, J.M. (2019). Oral Fluoroquinolones and Risk of Mitral and Aortic Regurgitation. Journal of the American College of Cardiology, 74 (11): 1444 DOI: 10.1016/j.jacc.2019.07.035 Retrieved from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109719359789

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 22 of 1,448

"In this prospective birth cohort study from 6 cities in Canada, higher levels of fluoride exposure during pregnancy were associated with lower IQ scores in children measured at age 3 to 4 years. These findings were observed at fluoride levels typically found in white North American women. This indicates the possible need to reduce fluoride intake during pregnancy." - Conclusion in Green et al, 2019

 

"The problem is that it's an uncontrolled dose – everyone is exposed to different levels. It may be prudent for pregnant women to reduce ingesting fluoride during pregnancy.” - Christine Till, PhD (2018)

 

What advocates of fluoridation fail to take into consideration is that good scientists should take care to report data and facts, and although they can draw conclusions within the confines of the data, scientists should neither dictate medical treatment nor stray beyond what the data reveals. This is what Dr. Till is doing.

 

The other item that fluoridationists seem to have a problem with is that using municipal water to mass medicate the population is a violation of individual medical consent and as such constitutes medical assault on those who object or who are ignorant of the harm caused them, i.e. the unborn. 

 

FLUORIDATION ADVOCACY ORGANIZATIONS - (on AARP)

Johnny Johnson is the president of the American Fluoridation Society,501(c)(3),  created in 2015 to promote fluoridation policy. Apparently the AFS has assetts in excess of $100k. The same membership created the American Fluoridation Institute, a 501(c)(4), in 2019, apparently for further financial benefits and lobbying opportunities. 

 

Ken Perrott directed me to his other published fluoride related document (an opinion piece claiming that kids with dental fluorosis likely do badly in school because they disengage due to embarrassment over their unatractive teeth instead of because of neurological damage). His conflict of interest statement on that paper states that KenP's affiliation is Making Sense of Fluoride which he writes is an incorporated society in New Zealand that focuses on community water fluoridation.

 

The 3rd article that comes up in PubMed under KenP's name is not about fluoridation. This 1998 article is about coping mechanisms of those who experienced childhood sexual abuse. The author (KenP says it's a different KenP) proposes that reframing the abuse is generally a positive strategy. That is interesting because the language and approach our KenP uses in fluoridation reframes the discussion and fluoridationist lobbyists emphasize changing the topic to 'win' the debate, i.e. 'reframing.' 

PewMattJacobHarmWheel.jpgHarm Wheel CWF

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 23 of 1,448

Maybe it's time for JAMA Peds Editor Christakis to begin listening to what Christine Till is having to say now about drinking fluoridated water:

 

MONDAY, Aug. 19, 2019 (HealthDay News) -- Fluoride exposure from drinking water during pregnancy could be making children less intelligent, a new Canadian study argues.

Pregnant women should consider reducing their exposure to fluoride, Till said. That might include avoiding public water sources that are fluoridated, since those account for 70% of fluoride exposure in adults.

WebMD

 

 

September 14, 2019

“I think this message could be easily misconstrued as us saying don’t drink fluoridated water — we’re not saying that,” study author Christine Till, professor of psychology at York University in Toronto, told BuzzFeed News.

 

 

If Till has changed her tune on drinking fluoridated water, how can the Editor of JAMA Peds stick to his medical statement to avoid it?

 

Johnny Johnson, Jr., DMD, MS

Pediatric Dentist

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 24 of 1,448

I agree with sirpac. 

 

There is no valid evidence for safety and effectiveness studies for ingesting a pharmaceutical grade or a non-pharmaceutical fluoride.   Harm has been established and further studies are needed.  If a physician who has respect for the JAMA study is concerned, why do the fluoride promoters protest with such vigor?  What is the agenda of fluoride promoters?  Their agenda does not seem to be public safety or safety of the children.  It appears they are insistent on defending an outdated policy without taking a breath to consider the big picture of harm.  The fluoride promoters’ arguments are the same after every study showing the potential for harm.

 

There are other ways to help the teeth than by contaminating the drinking water for all people thereby stomping on individual rights.  I think the fluoride promoters would best turn their energy to other ways to help the children whose parents cannot figure out the importance or the technique of how to brush their teeth.

 

Dr. Berry – watch his sensible video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSTTQKo6jxc            

 

AARP, take note of these things and offer a sensible piece in your bulletin.                  

 

A registered nurse.

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 25 of 1,448

sirpac - I have not attacked anyone - I suspect you are simply feeling that my identification of problems in studies is an attack but that is the way scientists work. Data, hypotheses, and conclusion are put up for discussion. Discussion is helpful - it is not a personal attack.

You are wrong to call the very high scatter in the Green et al relationship, the very low explanatory power of that relationship, the fact that Malin & Till's relationship with fluoridation disappears when other risk-modifying factors are included  "irrelevant minutiaea." Those facts are extremely important and should be considered by the authors and their supporters.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 26 of 1,448

Again Ken here retorts to attacking everyone else in an effort to swamp the truth by irrelevant minutiaea. He calls his own opinions, and his own papers, as proof of truth of the matter asserted. Then he calls the same as “intelligent discussion based on science”, when in reality this tactic is a circular argument and hearsay. To engage in a valid discussion, one needs to synthesize relevant sources, other than one’s own articles only, and mere attacks based on manipulations of data, as presented in the valid peer revieved studies. In reality, science speaks for itself, and concensus has been tipping on the side of the precautionary principle for a long time.

 

I just provided a new study, which “speaks for itself” and is not my own opinion or paper. However, the fluoride promoters have chosen to ignore this new highly relevant study, which again adds to the consensus thar fluorides are neurotoxic and harm the brain.

 

Again:

Strunecka & Strunecky (2019) aimed to provide evidence of fluoride (F-) neurotoxicity. They assessed the risk of chronic F exposure in the autism spectrum disorder (ASD) etiopathology and investigated the role of metabolic and mitochondrial dysfunction, oxidative stress and inflammation, immunoexcitotoxicity, and decreased melatonin levels. These symptoms have been observed both after chronic F exposure as well as in ASD. Moreover, they showed that F in synergistic interactions with aluminum’s free metal cation (Al3+) can reinforce the pathological symptoms of ASD. This reinforcement takes place at concentrations several times lower than when acting alone. A high ASD prevalence has been reported from countries with water fluoridation as well as from endemic fluorosis areas. Thus, Strunecka & Strunecky (2019) suggest focusing the ASD prevention on the reduction of the F and Al3+ burdens from daily life.

 

Reference:
Strunecka, A. & Strunecky, O. (2019). Chronic Fluoride Exposure and the Risk of Autism Spectrum Disorder, Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health,16(18), 3431. doi:10.3390/ijerph16183431

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/18/3431/htm

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 27 of 1,448

CarryAnne, I will just remind you of an important quote you presented here:

“When studying any matter, ask yourself two things: what are the facts and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, or what you think would have beneficent social effects if it were believed. Look only and solely at what are the facts.” -  Bertrand Arthur William Russell, logician and Nobel laureate on evidence and data analysis (1959)

As I said at the time this is so true. And in fact, that is the attitude all credible scientists take - to look at the evidence, data, discussion, logic. Not rely on "authority" statements, promotions, unsupported claims, etc.

This is the attitude I take so, please, be aware that your continued resorting to "authority" statements mean nothing to me. Show me the data.

And in this respect, this data from Green et al is what should be discussed - especially the huge scatter of the data and the fact the best fit line is meaningless in terms of prediction.
Canada 1.jpg
I am glad you accept the fact shown in Perrott (2018) that inclusion of elevation in the regression of Marlin & Till (2015) shows that fluoridation has absolutely no effect. Of course, this does not prove a cause for elevation - but it does show that the relationship reported by Malin & Till was false.

Of course, if you prefer opinions instead of intelligently considering the evidence that is your prerogative and, while it is unscientific, it is the usual approach anti-fluoridationists take. But one can select opinions to suit any bias.

In the end, the only thing of value is the data.

[Incidentally, I have several other peer-reviewed publications on fluoride - look them up - one of them relevant to IQ - Perrott, K. W. (2015). Severe dental fluorosis and cognitive deficits. Neurotoxicology and Teratology, 48, 78–79.]

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Message 28 of 1,448

“This is a very well-conducted study, and it raises serious concerns about fluoride supplementation in water” - Dr. Leonardo Trasande, a pediatrician and reknowned expert in  environmental exposures and children's health at New York University Langone Health on Bashash et al. (Sept 2017)

 

"There have been similar findings related to exposure to fluoride and IQ from children in China. So this observation or association has been reported before. - Dr. Linda Birnbaum, Director of the National Institute of Environmental Health Science on Bashash et al. (Sept 2017)

 

"The mission of the journal is to ensure that child health is optimized by bringing the best available evidence to the fore... This study is neither the first, nor will it be the last, to test the association between prenatal fluoride exposure and cognitive development." - Dr. Dimitri Christakis, editor in chief of JAMA Pediatrics (August 2019)

 

“It’s actually very similar to the effect size that’s seen with childhood exposure to lead.” - Dr. David Bellinger, senior scientist in environmental health and neurology at the Harvard School of Public Health on Green et al. (August 2019)

 

The irony in KenP's repeated insistance that everyone should read his blog post 'critiques' that refute the findings of a series of high-quality U.S. government sponsored studies is that KenP claims that he isn't influenced by the opinions of anyone else... Notice that KenP is spending a lot of time trying to influence participants in American social media with his non-peer-reviewed and self-published opinions. I believe his only published paper on this topic is an interesting attempt to disappear the evidence by adding elevation into the equation - his numbers appear correct in that one item, but it also could be totally meaningless to the question at hand. 

 

In any event, I suggest the opinions of experts such as those quoted above and the peer-reviewed published papers of expert teams from presitgous American and Canadian universities are better sources of truth than the blog of a retired agricultural chemist from New Zealand. 

 

See sources attached to this opinion item, We Too: Medical Assault and Battery

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 29 of 1,448

Despite of any techical issues or minor inaccuracies, the real issue is why does fluoridation continue, when there is no valid evidence of safety or effectiveness? All the polemics aside, this is a serious issue and not a matter of opinion. 

 

Since there are now hundreds of studies

establishing harm, and none to establish safety, then even if there were some ridiculous benefit of adding these highly toxic chemicals in to the water supplies, such practice would still violate all the basic ethical principles. These principles are based on informed consent and such consent belongs to individuals, not to any state or other governing body. 

 

Thus, why do the fluoridationist and fluoride promoters insists on stumping over individual rights? It appears the US does not respect such individual rights, or ethics, as long as the fluoride poisoning continues. 

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Message 30 of 1,448

sirpac - you say:

"If even fluoridated salt can cause IQ loss, and brain damage in developing brains, then what will daily exposure to silicofluorides in the public water do?"

Where is the credible evidence "fluoridated salt" causes IQ loss? (Notice the word "credible). And what is this about "silicofluorides in the public water?" Did you not realise the existence of these species in a dilute form in water is chemically impossible.

As for the Bashash paper - why do you quote the first paragraph in the introduction and label it an abstract?

For a critique of that paper read: 

Evidence linking attention deficit hyperactivity disorder with community water fluoridation is poor

You will notice like most of these studies the reported relationships are extremely weak - although in this case the 3 to 4% explanation of variance is better than in their other studies.

It is also very likely that this study ignored some important risk modifying factors. Perrott, K. W. (2018). Fluoridation and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder a critique of Malin and Till (2015). British Dental Journal, 223(11), 819–822 showed how inclusion of important factors (in this case altitude) removed any relationship of ADHD with fluoridation.

One needs to read these studies critically and intelligently.

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