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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 161 of 1,378

And you can lead a fluoridationist to clean water and he will turn away and consume F'd water anyway because he would think he was missing something and that God didn't Create water properly in the first place. .

Again, how else can one determine the drinking water F concentration to saliva if you don't take saliva samples after the previous materials eaten have been cleared?  There is no other way to delineate whether drinking water fluoride has any value in affecting the F content of the oral cavity. And it clearly has no significant role at all.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 162 of 1,378

I guess it's easy for some people to simply miss the point.

The girls whose night time saliva F levels were measured continuously until the next morning are indeed a normal situation. (No one eats while they are sleeping all night). And night time saliva washes the teeth and oral cavity. 

Of course F levels in the mouth can be high when one goes to sleep for the night after recently eating an F rich material such as toothpaste or dental gel, etc, but again all through the night the F level bathing teeth from the saliva that contains F from 1 ppm drinking water at less than 0.016 ppm in saliva is  a useless contribution.  Fluoridationists might believe that higher F from foods and gels might topically affect teeth, but this has nothing to do with F infused into drinking water which is worthless as a topical effect.

Only ductile fresh saliva could be used to determine how much F actually comes from the bloodstream of a F'd water consumer. There is no other way to determine it because indeed foods and beverages and gels would contaminate the saliva produced. So what?.
Bottom line, F'd water is useless at affecting caries, either systemically (CDC) or topically from that contained in nascent saliva. These are the facts. Again, the F content in the blood and thus the 24 hour a day produced saliva is mostly determined by the F level in the drinking water (NRC) and only 10% or so is from foods/beverages (p. 60, Report on F in Drinking Water 2006). 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 163 of 1,378

Richard, I think you should read the papers. You are stubbornly looking at freshly exuded duct saliva and saliva taken a long distance from drinking and eating. You are stubbornly ignoring the rest of the time where there is a significant elevation of chemical species in saliva phosphate, calcium anbd fluoride which does help reduce acid attack.

Well, you can take a horse to water . . but it seems impossible for an anti-fluoridationist to see the real world situation.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 164 of 1,378

And the Oliveby study provided was discussed in the NRC 2006 Report.  Notice that the "high fluoride water area" had 1.2 ppm F in the water and the night-long F saliva varied from 0.002 ppm to 0.14 ppm. The variation is likely determined by how much water one consumed before bedtime. So what?  The levels are still multiple thousands of times less concentrated than in toothpaste at 1,500 ppm for topical application.   24 hours at 0.016 ppm average from drinking water F in saliva is completely topically worthless. 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 165 of 1,378

Richard, you may be persisting in discussing freshly exuded duct saliva but that is pure stubbornness on your part. The scientists involved are discussing real-life saliva in the mouth which has elevated concentration of chemical species form consumption of food, water and beverage, and oral treatments. Also, from CaF2 deposited ion the oral cavity. 

You are simply straw clutching to deny what the science is showing, that fluoride in the oral cavity helps inhibit acid attack and repair after acid attack.

You remind me of the silliness Paulk Connett exhibited when I discussed this with hum - tried to claim that when drinking water none of the water touched the teeth or mixed with saliva. You have to be a determined reality denier to claim that.

Such antics really make a person look silly.

The science shows that food, water, beverages, mouth rinses, etc., all increase the fluoride content of the whole saliva. The concentration in the freshly exuded duct saliva does not prevent this - although over time it helps reduce the concentration of chemical species in the whole saliva.

The concentrations you insist on citing are not for normal situations. The subjects need to have a low fluoride diet and stop using fluoridated toothpaste for some time. Collections are also made at a distance from eating and drinking (usually before a meal).

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 166 of 1,378

Everyone knows that placing high fluoride varnishes or gels or fluoride salt in one's mouth that the saliva is for that time elevated in F. So what? What is being discussed is the 24 hour continuous permanent lifelong saliva F concentration that bathes teeth topically that is a filtrate of the blood. The blood F level in a fluoridated city is about 0.15 ppm with a filtered saliva F level of 0;016 ppm, useless for affecting caries. Notice that the one link describes the 24 hour saliva fluoride level (without eating F gels or varnishes or F rich foods) did not vary (when the drinking water F was not excessively high). So my point is well made yet again, that all night long the F level in saliva does not vary from this low useless level that bathes teeth topically.

Anyone can brush their teeth with 1500 ppm F paste and change their existing saliva F level for the moment. But this has absolutely nothing to do with fluoridated drinking water, where the F in saliva filtrated from the bloodstream after the water is consumed is useless, as we have been correctly saying for years.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 167 of 1,378

Richard, you say "sorry." I wonder if that is a Freudian slip for being so obtuse.

There is nothing groundbreaking about the statement "Saliva F is 24 hrs a day continuous." Of course it is. But the chemical composition of that saliva changes during the day because of inputs from food, beverages, water, and oral treatments.

You and your mates purposely confound freshly exuded saliva with the bulk saliva in the oral cavity.

There is quite a bit of research showing the elevation fo fluoride concentration in saliva resulting from eating food, drink (including fluoridated water), toothpaste use and dental treatments. Some of this research also looks on the relaxation of these concentrations - due to freshly exuded saliva which has low concentrations of fluloide.

 

Read a few papers:

Sjöman, J. H. R., & Twetman, I. S. S. (2006). Fluoride Concentration in Saliva after Consumption of a Dinner Meal Prepared with Fluoridated Salt. Caries Res, 40, 158–162. https://doi.org/10.1159/000091064

 

Zero, D. T., Raubertas, R. F., **bleep**, J., Pederson, A. M., Hayes, A. L., & Featherstone, J. D. B. (1992). Fluoride concentrations in plaque, whole saliva, and ductal saliva after application of home-use topical fluorides. Journal of Dental Research, 71(11), 1768–1775. https://doi.org/10.1177/00220345920710110201

 

Macpherson, L. M. D., & Stephen, K. W. (2001). The effect on human salivary fluoride concentration of consuming fluoridated salt-containing baked food items. Archives of Oral Biology, 46, 983–988. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003996901000401

 

Bruun, C., & Thylstrup, A. (1984). Fluoride in whole saliva and dental caries experience in areas with high or low concentrations of fluoride in the drinking water. Caries Research, 18, 450–456.

 

Eakle WS, Featherstone JDB, Weintraub JA, Shain SG, Gansky SA. (2004). Salivary fluoride levels following application of fluoride varnish or fluoride rinse. Community Dent Oral Epidemiol, 32(13), 462–469. Retrieved from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0528.2004.00185.x

 

Oliveby, A., Twetmanb, S., & Ekstrandc, J. (1990). Diurnal Fluoride Concentration in Whole Saliva in Children Living in a High- and a Low-Fluoride Area. Caries Res, 24, 44–47. Retrieved from https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/261237

 

Edgar, M., Dawes, C., & O’Mullane, D. (2012). Saliva and oral health. Retrieved from http://www.wrigleyoralhealth.com/content/docs/SHL_S_OH_A5_2015_FINAL.pdf#page=53

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Re: Evidence & Ethics

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Message 168 of 1,378

Reading through the post on what distinguishes science from anti-science is pretty generic and non specific.  People opposed to fluoridation based on facts are not spreading fear and distortion but rather explain the truth, plain and simple.  The initial misunderstanding by Dean in a study demonstrating a correlation of water fluoride and tooth decay in a few midWest cities has misled many. Correlation does not prove causation and in fact more thorough examinations of the effect of fluoride water consumption on caries has demonstrated in detail its lack of effectiveness, while being very effective at increasing the incidence of dental fluorosis enamel deficiency. Teotia and Teotia and Ziegelbecker and Yiamouyiannis are scientists who have studied the phenomenon in detail in man. And most importantly, the scientific experiments on mammals that are well controlled and definitive all demonstrate that eating/drinking fluoride have no impact whatsoever on dental caries incidence. These are the unarguable scientific facts proven in three separate labs, two in the U.S. and one in the U.K. There are no scientific controlled mammalian experiments demonstrating the opposite..

.Is describing these facts spreading fear, where fear mongering "sell"s? Of course not. Facts are immutable, they never change, period. One can eat fluoride all day long and it will not correct a single dental cavity because the scientific data prove it. And by scientific data I mean those experiments that have controls. If the Broadbent study has no controls,how can anyone refer to it as being scientific? You can't.

And the experiments with mammals by Varner and by Reddy and by Mullenix and others clearly prove that fluoride ingestion causes brain degeneration at blood fluoride levels common in consumers of fluoridated drinking water.. 

I go with the actual data, the science gleaned from controlled prospective experiments using the scientific method. I do not support distortion of the truth.

And referring to fluoride as though it were a nutrient is the ultimate distortion of fact. Fluoride has no physiologic function of any kind in the human system. It is a contaminant and mostly accumulates in bone where it does not belong and changes the crystal structure of bone which is bone of poor quality. There is no way to escape these truths

.

 I explain this to the general public as well as government agencies and other scientists because everyone needs to know the truth about what they ingest into their system. Everyone needs to drink water to live, so why would I withhold the truth from anyone? Doing so would be criminal. And distorting the truth to force innocent people to consume a worhless substance is mistaken..

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Evidence & Ethics

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Message 169 of 1,378

“I am a retired dentist and a doctor of integrative medicine. I see both sides of the story.  In my less informed days, I fed my older child fluoride pills to prevent decay.  By age 7 she developed Hashimoto's thyroiditis. And this was pharmaceutical grade stannous fluoride, not hydrofluorosilicic acid!  Since then I have seen many cases of thyroid damage and lowered IQ's in my practice in clients who have not filtered fluoride out of their drinking water." - Oksana M. Sawiak, DDS, IMD, MAGD, AIAOMT (2019)

 

Essentially every opponent of fluoridation began believing fluoridation was safe & effective. It is only those who do their due diligence and also have professional integrity and personal courage who speak out. Some like Dr. Sawiak above and Dr. Evans below learned the harms the hard way, by causing damage to their own children through blind obedience to dental dogma. 

 

Those who cling to the medical myth are no different than the papal experts who tortured Galileo or those who so aggressively argued against Einstein. Consensus is not science. Neither are name calling or other logical fallacies employed by fluoridaitonists a scientific debate - it is an orchestrated disinformation campaign. 

 

However, the consensus is changing. The Alzheimer's Association quietly demanded its name be removed from the ADA list in January. It's not the first, and won't be the last to remove its name from that marketing tool. I don't know whether it was the half dozen dementia studies published in the last few months that moved the Alzheimer's Association  to take action or the call to action from a cross section of 8 out of over a dozen professional organizations openly opposed to fluoridation (IAOMT, AAEM, etc.) and many more activist organizations i.e. FAN. 

See FAN TV for a few interviews with some of the experts who changed their minds: http://fluoridealert.org/fan-tv/ 

 

2017.12.11_BobEvans.jpg'Captain America's' dad, Dr. Bob Evans

 

 

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Re: Evidence & Ethics

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Message 170 of 1,378

 

No, Bill, you presume wrong - but then, in the world of anti-science activism, presumption is equivalent to proven facts.  When I use the phrase “anti-science activists” I am referring specifically to you, CarryAnne and the other activists who continually distort science in an attempt to hijack the democratic process.

 

Another anti-science activist asked in a recent exchange how an educated professional scientist who held views contrary to the scientific consensus could suddenly morph overnight into an anti-science activist.

 

My answer applies to your comments by describing the difference between legitimate scientists and health care professionals who have strongly-held views different from the scientific consensus and those who have morphed into anti-science activists.

 

The first fact is that scientists who hold views different from the scientific consensus are precisely those individuals who are responsible for the evolution of science from trial and error experimentation of humans many thousands of years ago to the society we have today where the lives of most citizens of the world depend on an accurate, scientific understanding of the natural world and the adjustments to that world in areas of health care, agriculture, technology, etc. made possible by that understanding. 

 

Without those pro-science activists we would live in a completely different world.  Both pro- and anti-science activists have very strong beliefs that their interpretation of the existing scientific evidence is accurate – even though those beliefs differ from the consensus of the majority of relevant experts.

 

However, there are several important characteristics that differentiate pro-science activists from anti-science activists.

 

  • 1)     
    A)  The beliefs of legitimate scientists – including pro-science activists – are modifiable and depend on the evidence.  Again, that principle that a scientific consensus will change with sufficient, legitimate, reproducible evidence is the foundation of all scientific progress.
    B)  The beliefs of anti-science activists are inflexible, and the selection and interpretation of evidence is controlled by those beliefs.

 

  • 2)     
    A)  The evidence of pro-science activists that conflicts with an accepted scientific consensus is discussed within the relevant scientific community with other experts, and the studies are published in peer-reviewed journals. 
    ~> It is the responsibility of the scientist(s) challenging the consensus to produce and defend relevant, legitimate, reproducible, properly interpreted evidence from well-conducted experiments or observations.  
    ~> If the evidence is legitimate and convincing, the consensus will change – that is the only way science works.  If not, again it is the responsibility of the challengers to either provide better, more convincing arguments or evidence to the scientific community so the consensus will change. 
    ~> Pro-science activists will keep fighting within the scientific community to change the consensus until they either succeed with better evidence &/or better interpretations or they will continue to fail.
    B)  The “evidence” of anti-science activists that conflicts with an accepted scientific consensus has been presented to the experts in the relevant communities, and it has not been of sufficient quality or reproducibility to convince those experts to modify the consensus. 
    ~> At this point, anti-science activists abandon the scientific processes of trying to change the relevant scientific consensus.  They take their “evidence” directly into public forums to try and hijack the democratic process. 
    ~> The goal of the anti-science activists is to convince intelligent, caring, well-intentioned members of the public that their anti-science selection and interpretation of the evidence is legitimate, that mainstream science and health organizations (and their members) can’t be trusted to care for or protect their health, that they should join the fight to end a science-based public health measure like community water fluoridation, vaccination – or other agenda topic.
    ~> These anti-science activists have abandoned scientific protocol, and their goal is to promote their agenda by employing whatever tactics have been proven by scam-artists throughout the ages to be effective at modifying public opinion.  Three of the main anti-science tactics, exemplified by your comments and those of CarryAnne, Richard Sauerheber and a few others, are:
    1) Disingenuous distortion, misrepresentation and fabrication of the available evidence when presented to the public in hopes that most citizens will not have the training, experience, time or inclination to track the references (or opinions) to their source and personally evaluate the studies, reviews or opinions.  Those distortions of evidence as it relates to fluoridation can be found on Ken’s blog, https://openparachute.wordpress.com/fluoridation/, as well as on the websites of major health organizations and others that support fluoridation.
    2) Fear sells.  If members of the public can be motivated by successful fear-mongering tactics of presenting false and exaggerated claims, scam artists can be extremely successful in peddling their con.  Which statement is most likely to capture the public’s attention?  Fluoride is a poison that reduces IQ and causes cancer --- or --- Fluoride reduces the risk of dental decay in communities with optimally fluoridated water.
    3) Casting doubt on the scientific and health communities.  To effectively sell the “Fear Factor” it helps for anti-science activists to claim that scientists and health care professionals who support the scientific consensus: “don't think for themselves or review the research”, are “all puppets of each other” “do not protect the publicThey are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists”, “are either ignorant or willfully blind” are “morally corrupt … doing their part to protect a profitable program that causes misery to millions”.  Do these accusations sound familiar?

 

So, Bill, if you are convinced you have legitimate scientific evidence to support your position, why are you not spending your valuable time presenting your “evidence” to the relevant experts in an all-out effort to change the scientific consensus?  Why are you trying to change public opinion instead of the consensus of scientists who can change policy?  I can only think of a couple of answers…

 

For that matter, would you please describe your interpretation of the scientific consensus, and since you have indicated a disinclination in the past to admit the concept of a scientific consensus is real or relevant, please describe any alternative you might have for how scientists and members of the public should determine the most accurate interpretation of decades of very complex scientific evidence?

 

You have provided your opinion of members of the CDC, ADA, and AAP as I highlighted earlier – as has CarryAnne.  Do you apply those same descriptions to all the members of the World Health Organization and the other 100+ organizations that continue to publically recognize the benefits of community water fluoridation or do you have other explanations?  I have asked this question a number of times without response.

 

Do you have any explanations for why only a small handful (about 6?) of alternative health organizations along with various conspiracy groups like INFOWARS [Alex Jones] and Natural News [Mike Adams] support the anti-science, anti-Fluoridation opinions?  I have also asked this question without response.

 

In specific response to your ‎02-28-2019 12:24 AM comment: 
~> The overwhelming evidence supports the safety and effectiveness of fluoridation

~> The “dosage” of fluoride is controlled in the same manner as the safe “dose” of all chemicals/elements in treated drinking water – by the amount of water it is possible to drink without harm.  Fluoride ions, unlike many of the other regulated chemicals in water, have been demonstrated by over 70 years of research to be safe and effective at reducing dental decay at about 0.7 ppm.

~> Why do anti-science activists listen to and select/interpret the evidence of only other anti-science activists and ignore any evidence they do not agree with?  That “evidence” has been demonstrated to be flawed over and over.

~> Explain and provide proof for your claim, “Fluoridationists violate ethical research”.

~> Fluoridation is no more a violation of freedom of choice than are any other water treatment processes or seat-belt laws, etc.  Anyone who dislikes ingesting fluoride ions – or any other residual contaminants – in drinking water are free to find other water sources or remove any contaminants they choose not to ingest.

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