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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 261 of 1,356

I apologize if I misintrepetted the content in the link you provided that said your experience is in "soil fertility, fertilizers and chemistry" to include pesticides, but it is hard to determine how I wouldn't assume you work with fertilizers since that's what you listed in your profile. 

 

I agree this AARP forum is not the place for a scientific debate. This is the place for American seniors to discuss their health issues & concerns in a 'safe environment in easy to understand language' and to engage with AARP as to the policy and advocacy these American seniors would like to see AARP pursue with our U.S. government.

Sharing some science with some discussion is helpful for that purpose, but the AARP forum is not a scientific conference and domination by a few is not in keeping with the 'community' intent of this platform. 

 

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 262 of 1,356

KenP says, "Yes, David, I can confirm I have Google and Google Scholar alerts for fluoridation and fluoride and often pick up articles and discussion this way.

I must set up similar alerts for Russiagate and Regime Change."

 

Response:  You don't have to.  You have the uncanny ability to zero in on and eulogize all those sources with which I happen to disagree.

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 263 of 1,356

Bill, I ask for the citation of the paper where you claimed NaF was used to induce cancer in animals. My wish is to assess the relevance of the paper to the issue.

So what do I get in respionse:

"You are not serious are you?  Your comments made me laugh out loud with a full belly laugh."

Come on - that is not respectful. I just want to check the paper. Why hide it?

Of course, I miss most of your comments - you blocked me, don't forget.

I seriously question your motives of coming here to respond to my comments when you have refused rational discussion on social media by blocking me.

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Re: Recent Alarming Science - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 264 of 1,356

Yes, I see you download citations and make claims about them - in bulk. But no discussion.

This is not the place for an extensive exchange on all your citations so I will just respond to one of them - the Bashash et al (2018). I am very familiar with this and have written a document which is relevant:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330897483_Evidence_linking_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_...

While these studies do suffer from the problems of using data not designed for the hypothesis they test and the urinary F spot measures are really inadequate, I have concentrated on the over advocacy of the regression analysis results.

Yes, they were able to find a few parameters (not all they tested) that were significantly related to maternal urinary F but, like the earlier IQ study, the regressions are poor. An R-squared value of only 3% really does not suggest there is a real problem - especially as when more important risk-modifying factors like nutrition are included, the relationship with urinary F would probably disappear. (I found that the Malin and Till 2015 study also suffered from not including relevant risk-modifying factors - when they are included, the relationship with fluodiation disappears completely - see my paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321457780_Fluoridation_and_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_... )

 

Bashash et al (2018) do acknowledge limitations in their study and specifically mention nutrition as one. They imply they will do more work to include this. As Malin et al  (2018) found significant relationships between maternal nutrition and child IQ parameters with a subset of these child-mother pairs it will be interesting to see the results of including maternal nutrition in Bashash et al's regressions. Malin et al (2018) explained more of the variance (R-squared value over 11%) so I look forward to future publication from the group.

By the way, your claim that my "job was to develop fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides" the is an absolute lie. I never worked with pesticides - or the development of fertilisers. You should be ashamed of lying in this way and it certainly undermines any claim you have to credibility.

Please stop such personal attacks and concentrate instead on good faith scientific exchange.

 

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 265 of 1,356

Ken,

You are not serious are you?  Your comments made me laugh out loud with a full belly laugh.  

 

The science posted has been mostly by those who want clean unmedicated water.

 

And I keep missing your response to my questions on over exposure.

 

With over 60% of adolescents having dental fluorosis (20% moderate/severe) NHANES 2011-2012 at what point will you admit (without humor) that many are ingesting too much fluoride?  Would you recommend 5% with severe dental fluorosis, 10% severe, or should everyone have severe dental fluorosis?

 

So the question is, what of the many sources of fluoride should be reduced?

 

Fertilizer, pesticides, medications, industry, toothpaste, fluoride added to public water?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Recent Alarming Science - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 266 of 1,356

Oh course, if KenP had looked at the history of this thread beginning in Feb 2015, he would see I posted considerable scientific studies with discussion and that approximately 20+ seniors amiably joined in over a period of 3 years. That ended in June 2018 when the fluoride trolls descended en masse.

 

Regardless of the opinion of a retired agricultural chemist from New Zealand whose job was to develop fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides, the epidimiologists, neuroscientists, and other scientists who published or read the recent peer-reviewed and high-quality studies listed as medical science rather than agricultural science are very alarmed about the implications relevant to fluoridation policy.  I have read them in full. 

 

THYROID: 18% of people drinking 'optimally' fluoridated water in Canadian communities have a heightened risk of low thyroid function because fluoride interferes with iodine metabolism. Many of them will be sub-clinical and not know they are mildly hypothyroid, which nevertheless increases their risk for diabetes, high cholesterol, and other problems. Study excluded those already diagnosed with thyroid disease.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041201830833X

  • Ashley J. Malin, Julia Riddell, Hugh McCague, Christine Till. Fluoride exposure and thyroid function among adults living in Canada: Effect modification by iodine status. Environment International. Volume 121, Part 1, December 2018, Pages 667-674.

 

PREGNANT WOMEN: Pregnant Canadian women drinking  'optimally' fluoridated water had twice the fluoride exposure per individual testing as compared to pregnant women in non-fluoridated Canadian communities - and consistent with the range in the Mexican women whose children had up to 6 points lowered IQ based on prenatal exposure to fluoride (from salt). Excluded those with health conditions such as kidney disease as well as considered confounding factors such as tea consumption. 
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/EHP3546
 

  • Christine Till, Rivka Green, John G. Grundy, Richard Hornung, Raichel Neufeld, E. Angeles Martinez-Mier, Pierre Ayotte, Gina Muckle, and Bruce Lanphear. Community Water Fluoridation and Urinary Fluoride Concentrations in a National Sample of Pregnant Women in Canada. Environmental Health Perspectives. October 2018. 

 

LEARNING DISABILITIES: Over 200 children were individually tested. Study found attention deficit disorder apparently caused by their prenatal exposure to fluoride specific to dose. This is the 3rd report out of the NIH sponsored 12 year study that seems to have been designed with the intention of showing no ill effect, but instead has three times confirmed low dose prenatal exposure to fluoride consistent with exposure in 'optimally' fluoridated communities causes subtle but permanent brain damage for many consumers.  Excluded those with history of mental illness or conditions such as diabetes and renal disease.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018311814

  • Morteza Bashash, Maelle Marchand, Howard Hu, ChristineTill,  Angeles Martinez-Mier, Brisa N. Sanchez, Niladri Basu, Karen Peterson, Rivka Green, Lourdes Schnaas, Adriana Mercado-García, Mauricio Hernández-Avila, Martha María Téllez-Rojo. Prenatal fluoride exposure and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in children at 6–12 years of age in Mexico City. Environment International. Volume 121, Part 1, December 2018, Pages 658-666.

 

OVERDOSED BABIES: Over one third of babies (37%) in fluoridated American communities consume amounts of fluoride in excess of the upper limits of fluoride considered safe per government regulations. Even 4% of babies in non-fluoridated communities are overdosed on fluoride due to consumption of products made with fluoridated water. At the very least, this puts these children at high risk for developing dental fluorosis, which is associated with increased incidence of learning disabilities, broken bones and kidney disease.
http://jocpd.org/doi/10.17796/1053-4625-43.1.7
 

  • Claudia X Harriehausen, Fehmida Z Dosani, Brett T Chiquet, Michelle S Barratt, and Ryan L Quock. Fluoride Intake of Infants from Formula. Journal of Clinical Pediatric Dentistry. 2018.

 

GOVERNMENT BIAS: A National Toxicology Program animal experiment studying the impact of fluoride consumption used the wrong rats, the wrong dose, and the wrong study design in order to manufacture a finding of no prenatal or postnatal effect.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987718308600

  • Karen Favazza Spencer, Hardy Limeback. Blood is Thicker Than Water: Flaws in a National Toxicology Program Study. Medical Hypotheses. Volume 121. December 2018. Pages 160-163.

 

SKELETAL MUSCLE DISEASE: Doses consistent with doses in the general population of optimally fluoridated communities can cause an autoimmune response and cell inflammation that results in either skeletal muscle enlargement or wasting.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749118325673  

  • P. Sudheer Shenoya, Utsav Sena, Saketh Kapoor, Anu  V. Ranade, Chitta R.Chowdhury, Bipasha Bose. Sodium fluoride induced skeletal muscle changes: Degradation of proteins and signaling mechanism. Environmental Pollution. 2018.

 

ADULT BRAINS: First long term NaF animal study (10 weeks) using moderate levels of fluoride finds a number of histological changes including in parts of the brain associated with memory and learning.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518317508  

  • Pei Jiang, Gongying Li, Xueyuan Zhou, Changshui Wang, Yi Qiao, Dehua Liao, Dongmei Shi. Chronic fluoride exposure induces neuronal apoptosis and impairs neurogenesis and synaptic plasticity: Role of GSK-3b/b-catenin pathway.Chemosphere. Volume 214, January 2019, Pages 430-435.

 

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE: Describes impact of fluoride-induced stress and inflammation in the development of Alzheimer’s disease and demonstrates the mechanism for cell death in its worsening over time.
https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/12/3965 

  • Goschorska M, et al. Potential Role of Fluoride in the Etiopathogenesis of Alzheimer’s Disease. Int. J. Mol. Sci. 2018, 19 (12), 3965. 

 

DEMENTIA: Describes mechanism by which the effectiveness of the two most popular drugs used to treat Alzheimer’s & other neurodegenerative dementia disease is reduced or blocked by fluoride. 

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/1/10/htm

  • Marta Goschorska, Izabela Gutowska, Irena Baranowska-Bosiacka, Katarzyna Piotrowska, Emilia Metryka, Krzysztof Safranow, Dariusz Chublek. Influence of Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitors Used in Alzheimer’s Disease Treatment on the Activity of Antioxidant Enzymes and the Concentration of Glutathione in THP-1 Macrophages  under Fluoride-Induced Oxidative Stress. Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2019, 16(1), 10. 

 

CANCER: Researchers who include an IARC scientist find esophageal cancer is 9.4 times more prevalent among those with dental fluorosis in the endemic fluorosis regions of Kenya. Provides biological plausibility that inflammatory fluoride affects microbiome and other biological mechanisms. Recommends more study. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30582155/

  • Menya D, Maina SK, Kibosia C, Kigen N, Oduor M, Some F, Chumba D3, Ayuo P, Middleton DR, Osano O, Abedi-Ardekani B, Schüz J, McCormack V. Dental fluorosis and oral health in the African Esophageal Cancer Corridor: Findings from the Kenya ESCCAPE case-control study and a pan-African perspective. Int J Cancer. 2018 Dec 23.

 

BONES & GENES: This 30 day animal study at 8 mg/L fluoride documents DNA & RNA damage that inhibits gene expression which can be passed on through generations affecting bone development and contributing to weak bones, blood & bone cancers and skeletal fluorosis. This is particularly important because EPA standards suggest that given this result, the 'safe' concentration of fluoride should be calculated at least 100 times less than what is now considered 'optimum.'  
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651318311734?via%3Dihub
 

  • Atule P. Daiwile, Prashant Tarale, Saravanadevi Sivanesan, et al. Role of fluoride induced epigenetic alterations in the development of skeletal fluorosis. Ecotoxicology and Environmental Safety. Volume 169, March 2019, Pages 410-417.

 

BRAIN INJURY: Fluoride interferes with calcium metabolism which impacts brain chemistry and poisons the hippocampus.  “The imbalance of calcium metabolism caused by fluorosis may be a pathogenesis of brain injury induced by fluoride.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518324007 

  • Qiuli Yu, Dandan Shao. Rui Zhang, Wei Ouyang, Zigui Zhang. Effects of drinking water fluorosis on L-type calcium channel of hippocampal neurons in mice. Chemosphere. Volume 220, April 2019, Pages 169-175. [Online Ahead of Print]

 

BRAIN DAMAGE: Prenatal & postnatal animal experiment using 10, 50 and 100 mg/L to simulate human experience documents mitochondrial damage and neuronal death as mechanism that result in learning and memory impairments. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30659323 

  • Zhao, Q., Niu, Q., Chen, J. et al. Roles of mitochondrial fission inhibition in developmental fluoride neurotoxicity: mechanisms of action in vitro and associations with cognition in rats and children. Arch Toxicol (2019).




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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 267 of 1,356

I think the problem with CarieAnne and similar anti-fluoride activists who continually post letters to the editor and online comments is that they get upset about not having things all their own way. They want an open field where they can say anything they like without being confronted with hard scientific facts or being challenged by someone who is familiar with the science.

But, come on. the internet is a wonderful place where different views can be expressed and opinion exchanged. It is rather childish to expect that one can have things their own way. And, after all, those of us that do have some confidence in their scientific understanding of the issue do welcome the chance to exchange opinions and to clarify the science.

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 268 of 1,356

Yes, David, I can confirm I have Google and Google Scholar alerts for fluoridation and fluoride and often pick up articles and discussion this way.

I must set up similar alerts for Russiagate and Regime Change.

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 269 of 1,356

CarryAnne neither of your definitions apply to me. Unlike local (and presumably US) anti-fluoride organisations I have never started a group pretending to represent a grass root movement. Nor have I deliberately started an argument on ine.

Of course, you do not provide examples. I do often participate in online discussions on things related to misrepresentation of scient (anti-fluoridation activity, creationism, religion and the philosophy of science) and political issues (like the US policy of regime change and the Russiagate hysteria in the US).

 

Your question 1 is of the “when are you going to stop beating your wife?” type. There is absolutely no “barrage of insults directed at the senior citizen Americans” coming from me. No one requested or directed my presence here. Like most exchanges, I came here because I became aware of a discussion that interested me. Not surprising, as I follow Richard, David and Bill on social media and have often “crossed swords” with them. (Bill has now opted out of any discussion by blocking me on social media – so I was surprised he responded to me here). Come to think of it, Bill does fit your description of a troll:
“A person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.”

I was rather pleased when he blocked me because discussion with such trolls always proves useless – especially as it turns away any genuinely interested person.

 

Your questions 2 and answers is simply a copout. I was clearly asking for a good faith exchange on the science. My example was the exchange with Paul Connett – can you point to anything from me in that exchange which was not about the science and ethics? No. I can reveal that Paul did resort to a personal attack in one extremely long contribution – but removed the attack when he rewrote to reduce the length.

This is the sort of exchange I was offering you. OK, perhaps you feel inadequate with the science so do not wish to accept my offer. I can understand – but please don’t excuse your temerity with personal attacks on me.

My offer was genuine – but I am not surprised you declining it. I have noticed you cite many papers which you do not, and probably cannot discuss. You seem to be typical of the anti-fluoride troll who scans the literature, relies on titles, never reads beyond the abstract, if that, and is incapable of honestly and openly discussing the science involved,

Perhaps Richard would take up the offer. After all, we have similar chemical qualifications so should be able to discuss the science easily.

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Re: Astroturfing on AARP from New Zealand

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Message 270 of 1,356

"Carrie Anne,"  your quote:  

 

"Question 1: Why did a New Zealand blogger infamous for his posts supporting fluoridation & denigrating opponents both on his blog and on letters to the editor across the English speaking world suddenly join the AARP - American Academy of Retired Persons which is "dedicated to empowering Americans 50 and older to choose how they live as they age" with a barrage of insults directed at the senior citizen Americans on the AARP forum?

  • Answer: He was recruited by a small but organized team of fluoridationists."

 

Response:  Since I am almost the only "fluoridationist" commenting on this website at the moment, it's a reasonable assumption that you are referring to me.  I can assure you, "Carrie Anne," that I did not "recruit" KenP.  I know him from his blog and I can honestly say that I disagree with him about almost everything, except perhaps this issue.  And why would that be odd?  Most people in the English speaking world support CWF. 

 

Your little fringe anti-fluoride group is so small that only 4000 signatures were collected Worldwide on the Fluoride Action Network's "Opposition to Fluoridation Statement."  That represents a whopping 0.036% of all health care and other professionals who believe what you believe.   The fact that KenP and I agree on this issue is completely in line with the odds.

 

Who recruited KenP?  I don't know . . but I can say that they have this really cool thing called "Google Search."  It's pretty slick.  And since KenP does take an interest in this subject, it is reasonable to assume that he might be in on that neat internet trick "Google Search."

 

Now I'm going to do what you do.  But this has absolutely nothing to do with you.  

 

Paranoid:  of, characterized by, or suffering from the mental condition of paranoia.

 

Paranoia:  a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically elaborated into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.

 

 

 

 

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