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Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

“The evidence that fluoride is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming… fluoride may be destroying our bones, our teeth, and our overall health.” - Dr. Hardy Limeback,  former President of Canadian ADA, Head of Preventive Dentistry at Univ of Toronto, 2006 National Research Council Scientist (2007)

 

The 2006 National Research Council on Fluoride in Drinking Water commented to the EPA that fluoridation at 1 ppm can be anticipated to be harmful for those with reduced renal function and the elderly. The NRC confirmed that fluoride not excreted by kidneys builds up in bones, resulting in arthritic pain and increased brittleness. However, there were no EPA studies on the whole health impacts of fluoridated water on susceptible population such as kidney patients, children, those with prolonged disease or the elderly. There still aren’t. 

 

However, there is mounting science from other sources that “optimally fluoridated” water, which is known to cause varying degrees of dental fluorosis in 58% of Black American adolescents and 36% of White American adolescents, is causing subtle deficits in ability to remember or focus. That same “optimal level” has also been proved in a 2014 study as being nephrotoxic in rats with chronic kidney disease. Chronic kidney disease (CKD) affects approximately 15% of Americans, although CKD is quadruple the rate in Black Americans, and predictably worse in older Americans. 

 

Perhaps the most horrifying part of the story of fluoridation is that not only is at least 50% of every drop of fluoride that has passed the lips of a Baby Boomer permanently stored in bones, fluoride isn't the only poison in packages of fluoride that originate as the waste product of aluminum an phosphate industry. 100% of the fluoride sampled in a 2014 study was contaminated with aluminum; arsenic and lead were other common contaminants. In other words, fluoridated water serves as a delivery system for aluminum and lead into our bones and our brains. As we all know, aluminum is associated with Alzheimers in adults, and lead is associated with learning disabilities in children. Approximately 15% of the population who is sensitive to chemicals cite inability to think clearly and overwhelming fatigue as symptoms of exposure to fluoridated water. 

 

Our generation was part of a great human experiment. It may have had noble intentions based on the faulty hypothesis that  drinking fluoridated water prevented cavities. It is now known that any perceived benefits of fluoride are from tooth brushing.  Our grandchildren are the third generation in this travesty. I suggest we all DEMAND the AARP stand up for us and our grandchildren by issuing a strong position paper calling for the cessation of water fluoridation. 

 

SCIENCE REFERENCES

  1. 2014 in Toxicology. Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats. (“Optimal levels” worsen kidney function😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004
     
  2. 2015  in Neurotoxicology and Teratology. Association of lifetime exposure to fluoride and cognitive functions in Chinese children: A pilot study.  (Children with visible dental fluorosis perform less well on memory tasks, correlating with the degree of severity of their fluorosis. One of a series of human and animal studies with the same consistent findings.😞 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25446012  
    2. http://braindrain.dk/2014/12/mottled-fluoride-debate/ 

  3. 2014 in Physiology and Behavior. Fluoride exposure during development affects both cognition and emotion in mice. (Measurable behavioral changes😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24184405

  4. 2014 in International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health. A new perspective on metals and other contaminants in fluoridation chemicals. (All samples of fluoride are contaminated with aluminum, plus other contaminants like arsenic, lead and barium); 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24999851
    2. http://momsagainstfluoridation.org/sites/default/files/Mullenix%202014-2-2.pdf

  5. 2014 in Scientific World Journal. Water Fluoridation: A Critical Review of the Physiological Effects of Ingested Fluoride as a Public Health Intervention. (Health risks and cost don't justify minimal and questionable dental benefit.):  http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

 

RACIAL INEQUITY (FOIA)

Here are three Oct 2014 news articles on the content of the Freedom of Information Act documents. Rev. Andrew Young, former UN ambassador has pursued them with the CDC, but to little effect. Civil Rights leaders have been calling for an end to community water fluoridation (CWF) since 2011. 

 

2015 LEGAL ARGUMENT (GROSS DISPROPORTIONALITY) 

There is a legal initiative in Peel, Ontario (pop 1.3m) to remove fluoride from the water supply based on the principle of gross disproportionality, i.e. marginal benefit does not justify great risk of harm. There is also a political effort afoot in Canadian govt to mandate fluoridation and thereby make the legal argument moot. I suggest this document is well-worth printing.  http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/peel.june2014.pdf

  • a. The first 19 pages of this document is about the legal strategy. It includes summary of US legal cases that found water fluoridation harmful to the public, but legal under US "police power" mandate.
  • b. Starting on page 20 is a devastating affidavit by Dr. Kathleen Thiessen, NAS/NRC scientist and international expert in risk assessment. Very readable summary of science indicating harm to populations in “optimally” fluoridated communities. 

 

POPULATION WITH LOW CHEMICAL THRESHOLD

  1. In excess of 25% of previously healthy Gulf War Veterans have Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, which includes sensitivity to fluoride. See: http://www.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/committee_documents/gwiandhealthofgwveterans_rac-gwvireport_2008.pdf 
    1. EXCERPT: “It is well established that some people are more vulnerable to adverse effects of certain  chemicals than others, due to variability in biological processes that neutralize those chemicals, and clear them from the body.” - Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses 2008 
  2. Affidavit of Dr. Hans Moolenburgh: https://fluorideinformationaustralia.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/affidavit-moolenburgh.pdf
    1. Except: “As a summary of our research, we are now convinced that fluoridation of the water supplies causes a low grade intoxication of the whole population, with only the approximately 5% most sensitive persons showing acute symptoms.The whole population being subjected to low grade poisoning means that their immune systems are constantly overtaxed. With all the other poisonous influences in our environment, this can hasten health calamities.” 
  3. PubMed Listed Studies on immune system response: 
    1. a. Fluoride makes allergies worse, rats (1990): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1707853 
    2. b. Fluoride makes allergies worse, in vitro (1999): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9892783
    3. c. Immune system of the gut (2010): http://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2010/823710/ 
    4. d. ASIA Syndrome, adjuvant impact (2011): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902
    5. e. Gene predicts fluoride sensitivity (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25556215
    6. f.  Brain has an immune system (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26030524

 

AARP - STAND UP on our behalf! 

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Carry Anne,

 

You object to Gish Galloping, so I thought we could get back to Dr. Sauerheber's salmon story.  Since you tried to bury my comment (timestamp 08-30-2018 02:40 PM) which completely proved him wrong, about an hour after I posted it, I thought we could review it before it gets lost. 

 

Being the objective person that you are, wouldn't you agree that Dr. Sauerheber's story changed as more evidence was presented to him, and wouldn't you also agree that there was no merit to begin with to his claim that water fluoridation harmed the salmon population in Sacramento.  

 

Here it is for your review:

 

Wow!

 

Dr. Sauerheber, nothing in your statement ever evolved?  I have documented the evolution of your story.  Here is the documentation of the documentation - See my comment timestamp 08-30-2018 11:34 AM

 

Again, trying to focus on your salmon story, (because we wouldn't want anyone to accuse us of gish galloping), this is what you just said:

 

You say, “It is a documented fact that when fluoridation began, the salmon returning population was the lowest in all recorded history in the Sacramento River.”

 

And, “But the statement itself is a fact--the two occurred together, and when the collapse became so severe that the fishing industry on the Sacramento closed up shop, this was after fluoridation of South Scramento had begun many months before.”

 

Now, this is a link that you originally provided.  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586%C2%A0  I didn’t provide the link, but I suspect you didn’t bother to look at it either. 

 

Take a look at figure one.  All three sources of salmon spawn returns, Tributaries, Mainstem, and Hatcheries hit their lowest point in 2009. 

 

You said water fluoridation began in 2010.  All three sources showed improvement after 2009.  In 2010, there was a greater abundance of fish into the mainstem than in 2009.  2011 also showed improvement from 2009 (before fluoridation began), although the Fall return in that year was not quite as good as 2010.  Mainstem returns in 2012 was better than 2009.  2013 was better than 2009.  2014 was better than 2009.  And the next year also.  

 

In other words, the low point for mainstem returns happened before water fluoridation began.  After fluoridation began in 2010 there was improvement. 

 

I don’t get how you can’t even grasp the simple fact that when water fluoridation began in 2010, and you said it began in 2010, it had absolutely no negative effect on salmon runs, (you even have a picture to look at).  And yet you think you have the insight to argue that Einstein was wrong about time dilation. 

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Moreoever, unlike water fluoridation which has no absolute proof in well-controlled prospective  experiments where diets and brushing habits, etc. are all fully controlled, for salmon we have such proof. The Univ. of Oregon studeis in prospective controlled experiments prove that salmon could not navigate upstream in water containing fluoride near levels used in fluoridation. 

The original correlation (correlation does not prove causation) that some towns with higher fluoride in water had fewer dental caries did not hold up when all towns were investigated as a function of fluoride concentration. The two events, fluoride in water and caries incidence reduction, are not a cause and effect relationship. Ziegelbecker fully disproved causation in the original selected few towns because the complete data demonstrated otherwise. So the best explanation is that people with Colorado brown stained teeth (caused by swallowing fluoride) could have brushed their teeth more than in a town where the teeth were not stained. Teeth brushing reduces dental caries, not swallowing fluoride.

Fluoridating a salmon spawning stream not only impairs salmon function, but it is a violation of the original Water Pollution Control Act first conceived by President John F. Kennedy. The Clean Water Act and Safe Drinking Water Act followed the WPCA and were based on its original mission. The mission of the WPCA as conceived by Kennedy is outlined in its section 101A, stating that the purpose of the act is to maintain the natural chemistry of America's water supplies. In other words, don't chemically alter our rivers and lakes. Infusing artificially fluoridated wastewater into the Scramento River completely dishonors and violates this mission of President JFK. 

The criticism that salmon are not harmed in the River because of the discharge pipe is based on misinterpreted graphs. The bar chart submitted contains three sections, and only the center one describes salmon returns fo rthe Sacramento River main channel where the discharge pipe is located and this has not returned to anywhere near full recovery since 2010. The other bars are for salmon returns in tributaries that are not fluoridated and in fact have many salmon hatcheries near them. Using the tributary data to discredit the claim that salmon are affected by the discharge pipe in the Sacramento River is pretty slick. It is just as slick as the claim that it is somehow proven that eating fluoride lowers teeth caries incidence.  It is a widely proclaimed advertisement, since no such proof exists in prospective fully-controlled experiments, such as does exist for fluoride harming salmon. Understand?

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Doctor S., your quote:  

 

"The bar chart submitted contains three sections, and only the center one describes salmon returns fo rthe Sacramento River main channel where the discharge pipe is located and this has not returned to anywhere near full recovery since 2010. The other bars are for salmon returns in tributaries that are not fluoridated and in fact have many salmon hatcheries near them. Using the tributary data to discredit the claim that salmon are affected by the discharge pipe in the Sacramento River is pretty slick."

 

Response:  I am talking about the tributary data, the center section in each bar, in my last comment.  Trying to confuse the issue by accusing me of misrepresenting data, simply because there are three sections in each bar, is pretty slick.  

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But nothing in the statement ever "evolved".  It is a documented fact that when fluoridation began, the salmon returning population was the lowest in all recorded history in the Sacramento River. I did not discuss the salmon in the tributaries or other central valley rivers that are not fluoridated. So?

The two events occurring together is indisputable.

Of course it is difficult to prove beyond any doubt that one caused the other, rathter than the other causing the one, or rather other variables causign both, or rather the two events occurred only by accident together. 

But the statement itself is a fact--the two occurred together, and when the collapse became so severe that the fishing industry on the Sacramento closed up shop, this was after fluoridation of South Scramento had begun many months before.

These are not "evolving" statements. They are statements of fact that need more thorough explanation and details when a critic challenges them. 

It's amazing how a critic can complain about the fact that it has not been proven that fluoridation was the final straw causing the lowest runs in history to close down the industry, while at the same time buys hook line and sinker the false correlation of fluoride in drinking water reducing dental caries. This coincidence has been fully disproven beyond doubt. Fluoride in water does not reduced dental caries and never has. The original claim was based on selected towns, whereas the complete data set proved that there is no reduction whatsoever as a function of fluoride concentration in water. 

How does a critic recognize the likely true one that has not been disproven as being not possible, while fully accepting and even proclaiming the false one as though it were a fact?  I have no clue why people believe what they believe, but it is certainly a sad situation. . 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Wow!

 

Dr. Sauerheber, nothing in your statement ever evolved?  I have documented the evolution of your story.  Here is the documentation of the documentation - See my comment timestamp 08-30-2018 11:34 AM

 

Again, trying to focus on your salmon story, (because we wouldn't want anyone to accuse us of gish galloping), this is what you just said:

 

You say, “It is a documented fact that when fluoridation began, the salmon returning population was the lowest in all recorded history in the Sacramento River.”

 

And, “But the statement itself is a fact--the two occurred together, and when the collapse became so severe that the fishing industry on the Sacramento closed up shop, this was after fluoridation of South Scramento had begun many months before.”

 

Now, this is a link that you originally provided.  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586%C2%A0  I didn’t provide the link, but I suspect you didn’t bother to look at it either. 

 

Take a look at figure one.  All three sources of salmon spawn returns, Tributaries, Mainstem, and Hatcheries hit their lowest point in 2009. 

 

You said water fluoridation began in 2010.  All three sources showed improvement after 2009.  In 2010, there was a greater abundance of fish into the mainstem than in 2009.  2011 also showed improvement from 2009 (before fluoridation began), although the Fall return in that year was not quite as good as 2010.  Mainstem returns in 2012 was better than 2009.  2013 was better than 2009.  2014 was better than 2009.  And the next year also.  

 

In other words, the low point for mainstem returns happened before water fluoridation began.  After fluoridation began in 2010 there was improvement. 

 

I don’t get how you can’t even grasp the simple fact that when water fluoridation began in 2010, and you said it began in 2010, it had absolutely no negative effect on salmon runs, (you even have a picture to look at).  And yet you think you have the insight to argue that Einstein was wrong about time dilation. 

Conversationalist

Since I didn't remember using the word 'greedy' which RandyJ repeatedly claims I did and which  doesn't sound like me, I searched my comments. This is what I said: 

 

As to who financially gains from fluoridation policy, they are too numerous to list but include fluoridated toothpaste manufacturers and fluoridation marketeers hired to create astroturf materials for social media fluoride-trolls. Then there are the dentists whose big bucks are earned from treating dental fluorosis. I don't believe most dentists intentionally support fluoridation for this purpose. Most are either ignorant or willfully blind. Others are either cowed into silence per my previous comments or are indeed sociopaths motivated by power, prestige and paychecks.

 

Here's a link to a 1988 special report issue of Chemical Engineering that speaks to the inconsistencies between policy & scientific data. It includes some financial data: 

http://www.nofluoride.com/Chemical_&_Engr_News.cfm  

EXCERPTIn a similar vein, the economic benefits of fluoridation appear to have been exaggerated. NIDR states that every dollar spent on fluoridation, which costs only 20 to 50 cents per person per year, reduces dental costs $50. NIDR assumes that fluoridation reduces cavities some fixed percent, such as 40%, and then multiplies the total number of cavities theoretically prevented by the average cost of filling one cavity. But when the actual costs of dental care delivered in similar cities are compared, residents of fluoridated cities seem to reap no economic benefit from fluoridation. In one study, reported in a February 1972 article in the Journal of the American Dental Association, the cost of dental care in five unfluoridated cities in Illinois was compared with costs in five similar cities with naturally fluoridated water. Even though dentists’ fees and the nature of treatments in the two groups of cities did not differ significantly, the cost per patient and the average number of visits to the dentist per year were greater in the fluoridated communities.

Screen Shot 2018-08-30 at 10.59.11 AM.png

 

FWIW: A 21st century innovation to get around the inconvenient financial facts regarding fluoriation is to use computer simulations and questionable input data that substitutes Medicaid codes as proxies for cavities. Again, I'm not accusing all dentists of being dishonest, but dental Medicaid fraud has been identified as a multi-million dollar problem in multiple states and has been the topic of several whistleblower cases. 

 

2014 in New York - 40% of claims are fraudulant

http://www.forbes.com/sites/merrillmatthews/2014/01/13/government-programs-have-become-one-big-scamm...

2015 in Indiana -  94 dentists defrauded Medicaid of $30.5 million

http://wishtv.com/2015/05/12/indiana-dentists-accused-of-overtreating-patients-overbilling-medicaid/...

Trusted Contributor

CarryAnne – First, let me apologize for interpreting your 08-22-2018 06:59 AM statement, “Willful blindness and financial benefit affect both organizations and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt” as “greedy, willfully blind”.  I have corrected the error in Q5 below.

 

Explain how my asking you a series of questions designed to examine your publically posted statements and positions and my requests for clarifications can, in any way, be defined as “A straw man fallacy” where “statements and positions are misrepresented by opponents(08-30-2018 07:46 AM)?  I am requesting that you explain more clearly your statements and positions so I don’t misrepresent them.  Specifically:

 

Q1)  Do you accept the fact that the support of CWF by virtually all nationally and internationally recognized science and health organizations constitutes the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective – YES or NO – and the related sub-questions.

 

Q2) Do you accept as true Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim about the CDC, ADA and AAP, “Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They do not protect the public.  They are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust”?  And do you believe that is applies it to the other 100+ organizations that do not publically denounce fluoridation and their hundreds of thousands of representatives?

 

Q3) Since you have gone out of your way to bring vaccination into the fluoridation conversation, do you also believe vaccination policies (to use your 08-24-2018 10:07 AM language) are also “an immoral medical mandate that forces contaminated product into bodies of convenient consumers regardless of impact on individuals in vulnerable populations who include senior citizens”?  Or do you accept the scientific consensus that the benefits of vaccination far outweigh any risks?

 

Q4A) You still have not addressed my 08-21-2018 01:00 PM correction to your blatant misrepresentation of the precautionary principle.

 

Q4B) You also did not provide an answer to my question, “If your claim ‘The evidence of harm caused by fluoridation is substantial and definitive’ is even remotely valid, how can you possibly explain the fact, which has been brought up and ignored by FOs  numerous times, that all of the major science and health organizations continue to publically recognize the scientific consensus that community water fluoridation is safe and effective and that there are no such organizations that support the anti-F agenda.

 

Q5) Did you actually describe in your comments (08-22-2018 06:59 AM), (08-19-2018 01:05 PM), (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) & (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) the ADA, EPA and ATA and their members as (corrected version) -- “[affected by] financial benefit, ignorant, willful blindness, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopathsNote: I corrected my original use of the term greedy.  If I am still misrepresenting your statements, please explain what you actually meant by those comments.

 

Update:  It is interesting to observe that in your “correction” comment 08-30-2018 11:03 AM, you don’t reference or highlight your 08-22-2018 06:59 comment “Willful blindness and financial benefit affect both organizations [ADA & EPA] and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt.

Instead you reference your 08-19-2018 01:05 PM post in which you only accuse some dentists who “intentionally support fluoridation for this purpose [financial benefit]” and continue with “Most are either ignorant or willfully blind. Others are either cowed into silence per my previous comments or are indeed sociopaths motivated by power, prestige and paychecks.

 

Q6) Do you also extend your description of fluoridation supporters in Q5 to all the hundreds of thousands of professionals who are members of all the other science and health care organizations that continue to recognize the benefits of CWF and have not publically denounced CWF?  Or do you have another explanation for why those professional health care providers choose to remain silent – or publically support the practice?

 

Q7) Another of my questions (08-21-2018 09:36 PM) I don’t remember you answering: ”By your ‘logic’ those who demand that drinking water chlorination be halted because chlorine has been used as an immoral chemical weapon (and creates a toxic brew of disinfection byproducts which have not been proven by randomized controlled trials to be completely safe) have a legitimate argument.  Do you believe that even if disinfection does help prevent diseases, disinfection policy is immoral mass poisoning because toxic chemicals are used and there may be health risks from overexposure to disinfection byproducts?”

 

You are still dodging my questions and providing additional irrelevant comments opinions and conclusions.

 

You still have not provided a rational explanation of why, if fluoridation opponents actually have legitimate scientific evidence to support their claims of harm, the scientific consensus that fluoridation is a safe and effective public health measure has not changed in over 70 years.  Or, if you believe the scientific consensus on fluoridation is irrelevant, you have not explained what your alternative would be.  It appears your alternative is to do whatever it takes to convince the public to blindly trust and accept fear-based, minority, outlier opinions.

 

Also, you have not provided a rational explanation of why you would trust or accept any claims made by any health professionals who supported or did not denounce CWF:

  1. If, as Dr. Osmunson’s apparently believes, those professionals who accept the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.
  2. And, as you apparently believe, they are “[affected by] financial benefit, ignorant, willful blindness, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths"

Q8 - New) Are all these science and health professionals selectively lemmings, willfully blind, greedy (sorry, [affected by] financial benefit), corrupt, etc., only when it comes to their understanding of the science related to fluoridation?  
If so, how would Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim “Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation” be even remotely justifiable?

 

As noted elsewhere, the IAOMT Position Paper Against Fluoride Use with “over 500 citations”, your lists of studies and articles FOs have interpreted as supporting their cause, dozens of opinions from other FOs, and what you accept as “inconsistencies between policy & scientific data” are completely irrelevant to any scientific discussion of the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective.  These tactics are nothing more than marketing strategies designed and implemented to try and scare the public (most of who are not trained and experienced in science or medicine) into believing the anti-F arguments and interpretations of the evidence have some legitimate credibility.  If their “evidence” was even remotely legitimate and credible, FOs would have been able to change the scientific consensus in discussions with relevant experts.  

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A straw man fallacy is when statements and positions are misrepresented by opponents in order to mount politically biased and invalid rhetorical attacks. Other logical fallacies used by fluoridationists DavidF, RandyJ and members of the fluoridation advocacy group on this thread and elsewhere are  circular reasoning, appeals to authority, ad hominem attacks, etc. All the logical fallacies are popular with fluoridationists and social media trolls. 

 

The irony is that the fluoridationists claim the fluoride opponents are using 'gish gallop' with our science based and ethical arguments, when it is they who like creationist Duane Gish, PhD (1921-2013) are trying to manipulate public opinion with lengthy rambles filled with flawed reasoning.  Gish was a wordy creationist and orator who repeatedly 'proved' that evolution theory is false and that the Bible creation story is historical fact. (Randy's comments are frequently 2,000- 2,500 words while DavidF prefers making multiple comments one after the other for his delivery of fallacies.) 

 

In particular, let me point out that it is totally illogical to use the rubber stamp endorsements of the CDC for its own fluoridation policy and the Amercian Dental Association (ADA) which is a trade association with financial ties to the fluoride industry as proof of anything while denying the validity in the reasoned opposition to fluoridation in the 2017 Position Paper Against Fluoride Use with over 500 citations by the Internationational Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology (IAMOT). The IAOMT is an international group with professional membership in all 50 states. The IAOMT is governed by a science board and was founded in 1984 with a scientific mission that includes funding independent peer-reviewed research regarding non-toxic oral medicine and educating medical professionals and public in dental and oral medicine. 

 

But we digress. As an opponent of fluoridation, I prefer science and ethics. For your clicking convenience, here are the 8 scientific citations which were in fact removed via flagging when posted on another online platform in reply to RandyJ's taunt of lack of science: 

 

“The effects of fluoride intake pose risks of various diseases in the asthmatic-skeletal, neurological, endocrine and skin systems… avoid the fluoridation of drinking water and fluoridation of milk in all regions of the country.” - Romero et al. 2017 

  • The impact of tap water fluoridation on human health. Verena Romero, Frances J. Norris, Juvenal A. Ríos, Isel Cortés, Andrea González, Leonardo Gaete, Andrei N. Tchernitchin. Rev. méd. Chile vol.145 no.2 Santiago Feb. 2017.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28453591 

 

“This study provides evidence that chronic oxidative and inflammatory stress may be associated with the fluoride-induced impediment in osteoblast differentiation and bone development.” - Gandhi et al. 2017 

 

“In conclusion, prolonged fluoride intake at chosen concentrations caused imbalance of the cellular oxidative state, affected DNA and disrupted cellular homeostasis. It is recommended that fluoride supplementation requires a fresh consideration in light of the current study.” - Campos-Pereira et al. 2017 

  • F.D. Campos-Pereira, L. Lopes-Aguiar, F.L. Renosto, et al. Genotoxic effect and rat hepatocyte death occurred after oxidative stress induction and antioxidant gene downregulation caused by long term fluoride exposure. Chem Biol Interact. 2017 Feb 25;264:25-33. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28089781 

 

“The finding supports the epidemiological results that water fluoridation might be responsible for the increasing rate of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women.” - Kakei et al. 2016 

 

“Last is the question of whether in issues of uncertainty it is appropriate to determine broad-based policies intended to mandate public health measures.” - Gesser-Edelsburg & Shir-Raz 2016 

  • Anat Gesser-Edelsburg and Yaffa Shir-Raz. Communicating risk for issues that involve 'uncertainty bias': what can the Israeli case of water fluoridation teach us? Journal of Risk Research · August 2016. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305985332 

 

“We found that practices located in the West Midlands (a wholly fluoridated area) are nearly twice as likely to report high hypothyroidism prevalence in comparison to Greater Manchester (non-fluoridated area).” - Peckham  et al.  2015

  • S. Peckham, D Lowery, S Spencer. Are fluoride levels in drinking water associated with hypothyroidism prevalence in England? A large observational study of GP practice data and fluoride levels in drinking water. J Epidemiol Community Health. 24 February 2015. http://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2015/02/09/jech-2014-204971 

 

“In summary, this study has empirically demonstrated an association between more widespread exposure to fluoridated water and increased ADHD prevalence in U.S. children and adolescents, even after controlling for SES. The findings suggest that fluoridated water may be an environmental risk factor for ADHD.” - Malin & Till 2015

 

“Such contaminant content (in fluoridation chemicals) creates a regulatory blind spot that jeopardizes any safe use of fluoride additives.” - Mullenix 2014

Bronze Conversationalist

Carry Anne, you say:  “A straw man fallacy is when statements and positions are misrepresented by opponents in order to mount politically biased and invalid rhetorical attacks. Other logical fallacies used by fluoridationists DavidF,”

 

Response:  I don’t get it.  I have been trying to focus on something Dr. Sauerheber said, that water fluoridation caused the salmon collapse in Sacramento.  It would never occur to me to even think that.  But that is what he said.  This is his exact quote:

 

 RS:  the salmon industry was decimated in Sacramento when the city began fluoridation.”  07-27-2018 07:19 PM

 

When I presented evidence from environmental experts who blamed the salmon collapse on drought, the building of dams, and over-fishing, he changed his story to this:

 

RS:  "This does not detract from the claim that fluoride discharges were a final straw that completed the approximately 90% collapse in the first place”   08-27-2018 08:06 PM

 

And then, when we looked at the actual increase in salmon numbers after fluoridation began in Sacramento, which totally debunked his original claim, his story changed again:

 

 RS:  “And as stated before, it may be that salmon can adjust and imprint the chemical conditions that prevail and grow in number again.”    08-28-2018 07:07 PM

 

So, when you say I am misrepresenting him in some way, could you please explain that?  I think his comments speak for themselves.  They seem to "evolve" as more evidence is presented to him.  You would think he would have looked at all the evidence before making the outrageous claim in the first place.

 

Carry Anne, you also say, “The irony is that the fluoridationists claim the fluoride opponents are using 'gish gallop' with our science based and ethical arguments, when it is they who like creationist Duane Gish, PhD (1921-2013) are trying to manipulate public opinion with lengthy rambles filled with flawed reasoning.”

 

Response:  Gish galloping.  I’m glad you brought that up, because while I have been trying to focus on the Doctor’s original claim about salmon, he’s been trying to get off into the SDWA, the FDA, the EPA, and Einstein’s Theory of Relativity (and I admit, I did make some comments about that).  Are you sure we are looking at the same comments, or am I making one of those straw man arguments again?

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So now it sounds like it is acceptable for fluoridation opponents to speak out againt it because indeed they truly believe and have evidence for the fact that fluoridation is harmful and ineffective. So that's great.

As far as describing why some professionals agree with fluoridation, I can't determine that without discussing that with each person. I would guess that indeed most, being uninvolved in fluoridation research themselves, simply accept what dental officials at the CDC state. Why should they disbelieve it since they don't do their own research on it?

All doctors who I know do not intentionally subject patients to fluoridated  water and really could care less whether patients want to drink it or not. Most don't object to it either because it is widely believed to be a Federal policy. But this of course is incorrect for reasons listed previously. When discussing the issue with physicians over the years kmost accept that fluoridation is not useful after evidence is presented to them indicating that. I don't know any  who actually endorse or promote fluoridation in the face of evidence describing its ineffectiveness.


Early in my research career I had no reason to disagree with the use of the commonly prescribed diabetic drugs to treat type II diabetes. But after conducting experiments on the issue it became clear that these drugs should not be prescribed. Most are derivatives of beta cell harming substances that release insulin in an abnormal way and the real issue in type II is not insulin lack anyway, it is overnutrition that is correctable without drugs. So with fluoridation the same events are common, where people generally accept it on faith from word of mouth and only reverse position when discovering definitive data that indicate eating fluoride is ineffective.

It is not hard to understand this, where dentists are taught in dental schools that fluoride is good and ingesting it reduces dental decay. This was a stance that was agreed upoin by dental school deans in the 60's and the country is now paying the price for that.

It's not that complicated.  Unproven correlations can do much long lasting damage to the health community.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard Sauerheber – Your statement suggesting that I implied, “So now it sounds like it is acceptable for fluoridation opponents to speak out againt it because indeed they truly believe and have evidence for the fact that fluoridation is harmful and ineffective. So that's great.” is a perfect example of how anti-science activists (ASAs) change topics and “adjust” reality and the context of statements to fit their agenda.

 

To be very clear, I never stated or claimed or implied that I believe that it is “acceptable for FOs to speak out against it”, particularly employing the tactics I and others have highlighted, regardless of whether they ”truly believe” or think they have legitimate supporting evidence.

 

I actually stated, “If someone saw a glow in the theater and really believed there was a fire that was endangering them and others they would certainly be within their legal rights to scream Fire!” “Within their legal rights” does not translate to “acceptable”.  If you can find anything in my comments to suggest I believe the conduct of ASAs is acceptable, please feel free to cite it.

 

I am stating that it is irresponsible to yell Fire! if the body of evidence (as interpreted by the majority of relevant experts) supports the conclusion that the fear-causing glow is from a cell phone – or perhaps a flashlight.

 

I actually agree with your statement, “It's not that complicated.  Unproven correlations can do much long lasting damage to the health community.”  That is precisely why many “medical treatments”, like homeopathy, that depend entirely on anecdotal correlations for evidence of effectiveness have the potential for harm.  However, support for CWF is not based on “unproven correlations” except in the over-excited imaginations of fluoridation opponents. 

 

The fact is that the medical community accepts the evaluation of the 70-year body of evidence that the benefits of CWF far outweigh any currently known risks.  If fluoridation opponents have legitimate evidence to support their apparently paranoid fears, it is their responsibility to convince the medical and scientific communities their fears are legitimate instead of continuing to yell Fire! for over 70 years with no legitimate, reproducible supporting evidence.

 

If the findings of legitimate research supported the conclusion that specific diabetic drugs caused more harm than benefits, and the results were published and confirmed by additional research the drugs should have been taken off the market.  If additional risks were discovered, but the benefits in many cases outweighed those risks, the drugs would probably be kept on the market with additional warnings.

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Wrong again. First, there are many doctors and other health professionals who do no research themsleves on fluoridation or fluoride toxicology and who accept the false tenets promoted by fluoridatinoists, while at the same time those same professionals understand other health issues very well. In fact it is the rule rather than the exception that doctors understand many issues better than others while some issues are not understood well.  Doctors are humans.

 

Second, the NRC concluded that the current EPA MCL's for fluoride in water are not fully protective of human health.and should be lowered.  The committee also admitted that much more research is needed because many questions remain unanswered. in othe words, fluoridationists put the cart before the horse and went ahead long ago and began fluoridating people without full knowledge of whether it would be safe or not. We now know it is not harmless to all consumers and the program should be halted and never should have begun in the first place. it is not FDA approved. And only the FDA (not the CDC, EPA, or ADA) has Congressional authority to regulate minerals claimed to have health benefit when ingested..   

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Now I've heard everything. Telling the truth, that eating and drinking fluoride ion does not and cannot reduce dental caries, is regarded as "yelling fire in a crowded room"?  The latter is illegal and a violation of free speech rights. The former is simply being a patriotic whistleblower. 

 

Eating/drinkng fluoride from water infused with fluosilicic acid, caustic soda, and the other contaminants of fluoridation does not reduce dental decay and never has. The oringal observation with natural calcium fluoride that appeared to be associated with reduced caries was a false correlation that Ziegelbercker disproved by examining all the data, not just selected data that appeared to show the correlation. There is no effect on caries of drinking F water at levels all the way to 6 ppm, but of course the incidence of dental fluorosis increases progressively as a function of water fluoride concentration. Fluorosis increases in incidence in every artificially fluoridated city and there are no exceptions. Even fluoridationist Pollick has published this fact.

 

Read the textbooks by dentist statistician Phillip Sutton. Read the text by John Yiamouyiannis. Read the detailed published 30-year studies by Teotia and Teotia. 

 

This is not yelling fire in a crowd that incites death and injury. This is just the opposite. It is correctring a long-standing myth from a false correlation dating back to the 1930's. The ADA reversed its original stance from the 1950's against fluoridation, and now promotes it. Were they crying fire in a crowded room when they opposed it? Are the correct now and wrong then? or are they wrong now and correct then?  We now know they were correct then and are wrong now, and the truth needs to be told (without alarming people to cause dangerous runs for cover).

 

There is nothing dangerous about avoiding consumption of artificially fluoridated water. In fact, most people I know in fluoridated cities do not drink city water. They buy gallon jugs of water for drinking. They haven't killed themselves or others by avoiding fluoridated water. In fact, they are protecting the health of their bony skeleton.

 

Bones carry out funcitons far more importrant than simply helping you stand straight up to walk down the road. Bone is a live tissue that is the repository for calcium ion in the bloodstream when dietary calcium is insufficient. Blood calcium is necessary to support the beating heart. Heart muscle has no SR to store its own calcium like skeletal muscle has. It is dependent on extracellular blood calcium to mediate muscle contraction subsequent to electrical excitation of the cell. Bones are crucial to support the functioning beating heart. Every time the heart contracts, it is because extracellulaur calcium diffuses into the heart cell, and when it relaxes it is because calcium ion is pumped back out of the cell. Lub-dub sounds occur after calcium going in then calcium coming back out. If the blood calcium level drops below physiologic range about 2 mM, then the beating heart stops. This is precisely what happend to the U.S. Coastguardsman in Hooper Bay, Alaska from fluoride overdose. There is no need for alarm! Just don't drink water that is overfluoridated.

 

There is cause for concern and action though, to protect bones and to allow bone to be fully responsive to blood calcium ion needs. Don't drink fluoridated water your whole life, because doing so converts normal bone into non-resorbable bone -- the more fluoride accumulates, the more abnormal bone one has. 

 

Again, one doesn't need to run for the hills to avoid a fire. You need to drink clean water long-term that is not fluoridated. If one is in the desert and no other water is available, of course one drinks the fluoridated water to avoid dehydration. But one doesn't go looking for fluoridated water when clean water is available. F water does not reduce dental caries but it does cause F to accumulate in bone.  Plain and simple, except for some people fluoridated water is the only water available and avoiding it becomes more difficuilt. RO units in sinks are costly but necessary if bottled water or distilled water or hauled clean water are not available. Bone char (used to clean raw sugar to make white sugar) can filter water to remove fluoride, but bone char is now scarce.    .

The best thing for a city to do is simly to halt adding fluoridation chemicals into water supplies. Don't halt adding chlorine becuse this serves a health purpose of sterilizing the water to kill  pathogens. Fluoride though provides no physioogic functional purpose whatsoever and in fact water fluoridation needs to be properly named for what it causes, it is a bone fluoridation program that was hoped to be an oral ingestible caries-fighting decay preventive chemical, but it isn't. . 

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration correctly labels fluoride additions into water as an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug. Fluoride ingestion is not and never has been FDA approved. The FDA is not "crying fire in a crowded room", but most certainly properly determines the safety and effectiveness of drugs, minerals, and supplements. Listen to them.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard Sauerheber – My observation has nothing to do with being “illegal and a violation of free speech rights” If the person yelling FIRE! had a severe paranoia and actually believed themselves and everyone else in the theater to be in immediate danger – perhaps the person saw a frightening glow from several locations.  If they had no knowledge of what cell phones looked like in the dark they could easily jump to conclusions, employ the precautionary principle and try to warn everyone.  Everyone else in the theater would accept the consensus that cell phones did not represent a significant danger and ignore the glow. Although the more paranoid might demand that cell phones and other battery-powered devices be banned from public places because of the known risk of batteries catching fire.

 

The bottom line is that, despite all of the alleged “evidence” you and other fluoridation opponents present in support of your allegations that CWF is harmful and ineffective, the consensus of relevant science and health experts that fluoridation is safe and effective continues.  Explain that fact.

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So opponent's of fluoridation have legal rights to speak out against it. That is great. And so we do. The Cochrane review found no credible evidence that swallowing fluoride has any ability to affect dental caries. And how could it in the first place? Teeth enamel is a hard crystalline matrix of calcium phosphate and does not contain fluoride in it.

Sadly ablood fluoride is readily incorporated into bone and accumulates there where it dies not belong,, altering the crystal structure of bone and is essentially permanent since ithete is no biochemical mechanism designed to resorb it.

Again, these correct facts are fully legal for me to proclaim. OK? 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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But screaming fire in a crowded room when there is no fire, imagined or otherwise, is illegal. It is not protected by free speech rights.Those opposed to mandatory fluoridation of people against their will are not screaming any such thing and in fact are trying to protect the rights people are supposed to have to access fresh drinking water without added agents designed to treat human tissue (that do not work in the first place).

Claiming that opposing fluoridation is like screaming fire when there is no fire is an assertion that such opposing speech is illegal. it is not.  Whistleblowing is protected by first amendment free speech rights. This is the United States of America and in this country we are protected by the U.S. Constitution and have full rights of free speech on the issue of fluoridation of people against their free will.

Intimidation and threats of such protesters being illegal are unAmerican.

Protecting the rights of people to have access to clean fresh drinking water is also a right that is guaranteed by the United Nations. Forced fluoridation of populations en masse in cities is a violation of such rights and a violation of the prescription process since fluoride tablets cannot be prescribed in cities where water fluoride levels exceed 0.6 ppm and cannot be prescribed to children under three.  Fluoridated water promoters do not believe fluoride is a medicine and that these statements are irrelevant but that is false. The FDA ruled that fluoride added into water is an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug. Is the FDA screamilng fire and mongering fear by making this ruling? Of course not. if you want to change the policy of the FDA land the pescription process and regulations for pescribing fluoride for ingestion go ahead and talk to them. 

But until then I preach what the FDA rules.

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard Sauerheber – If someone saw a glow in the theater and really believed there was a fire that was endangering them and others they would certainly be within their legal rights to scream Fire! – even though it was a false positive.  One of humanities most important survival skills is to pay very close attention to and avoid perceived risks – real, imagined or fabricated.

  

If someone actually believed they and others were in danger, how can you conclude that "screaming fire in a crowded room when there is no fire, imagined or otherwise, is illegal"? 

 

I am just stating the fact that fluoridation, like noticing cell phones glowing in dark public areas, is recognized by most individuals who understand modern science as safe – that is the definition of a consensus.  There are some, however, who believe there are dangers and yell Fire!

 

Fluoridation opponents are within their legal rights, protected by free speech, to promote their opinions - for example those by CarryAnne:

(08-22-2018 06:59 AM) Willful blindness and financial benefit affect both organizations [ADA and EPA] and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt and vested interests are doing their part to protect a profitable program that causes misery to millions and Agnotology: Culturally induced ignorance or willful blindness, particularly the promotion of misleading scientific data and anecdotes by a biased group

You also claim (08-19-2018 01:05 PM) that, “Most [dentists] are either ignorant or willfully blind. Others are either cowed into silence per my previous comments or are indeed sociopaths motivated by power, prestige and paychecks” 

(07-25-2018 11:30 PM)the malignant medical myth of fluoridation persists because not only is there a profitable business model built on fluoridation, fluoridation promotion is profitable to many advocates
(07-03-2018 07:35 AM)I have it on good authority that they [American Thyroid Association] don't want to provoke a political storm with other groups - cowards.

 

And comments To Dr. Johnson by Dr. Osmunson (07-09-2018 09:09 PM):

"CDC references the ADA and AAP,  and the ADA and AAP reference each other and the CDC.  Circular referencing."
"Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They do not protect the publicThey are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust."
"I do not call those organizations following the herd scientificlly credible, when it comes to fluoridation.  Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation."

"Joining the herd is much easier than spending the time to critically evaluate the science and stand on the science rather than endorsements/popular opinion."

 

Do you accept CarryAnne's and Dr. Osmunson's specific claims against the organizations they referenced and also, as I have asked them, against all members of the 100+ respected (except by anti-science activists) organizations and their representatives who have not publically embraced the anti-F opinions?

 

If you answer yes, explain how you can trust any science or health conclusion or procedures accepted by anyone in those organizations?  If all professionals who support community water fluoridation are mindless lemmings who are willfully or ignorantly blind when it comes to the issue of fluoridation – and are willfully or ignorantly subjecting their patients to the allegedly obvious and damaging harm from fluoridation, how on earth can they be trusted to make any beneficial decisions?

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“A wide variety of plants are sensitive to fluoride toxicity… Fluoride is an accumulative poison in plant foliage. Accumulation may be gradual over time… Avoid fluoridated water.” - in  “Fluorine Toxicity in Plants” (2018)

 

“fluoride concentration as low as 0.5 mg F-/l can adversely affect invertebrates and fishes, safe levels below this fluoride/l concentration are recommended in order to protect freshwater animals from fluoride pollution.”  - in "Fluoride toxicity to aquatic organisms: a review" (2003)

 

But the focus of this thread and the AARP is the adverse impact of fluoridation policy on Senior Health which includes the immorality of using municipal water supplies to dose the population with a substance which is known to be medically contraindicated for many with inflammatory, immune system, thyroid and kidney disease

 

Moreover, fluoride accumulates in bodies, brains and bones over time where it is known to cause or worsen conditions including arthritis, brittle bones, kidney disease and dementia. Baby boomers are the first generation that has been subjected to long term chronic low dose exposure. 

 

See today's press release that mentions 5 fluoride studies presented this month at an international conference of scientists addressing issues in environmental exposure and health. Those studies again validate the adverse health impact of low dose exposure to fluoride. The press release also includes a quote from Attorney Paul Beeber on the political manipulation of fluoridationists who attempt to influence decision makers with distraction. 

 

Click here to go to the first February 2015 comment and use PREVIOUS button in order to advance through the 60 comments from about 20 seniors prior to the troop of fluoride trolls trashing this forum with long off topic and frequently abusive comments. 

 

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CarryAnne – I was about to submit the observations and questions below when you posted your most recent comment and opinions, “the focus of this thread and the AARP is the adverse impact of fluoridation policy on Senior Health which includes the immorality of using municipal water supplies to dose the population with a substance which is known to be medically contraindicated for many with inflammatory, immune system, thyroid and kidney disease.”  It is remarkable that you seem to believe your thread, the sole intent of which is to present unconfirmed speculations about the allegedly serious and obvious risks of harm from community water fluoridation (CWF), should somehow be immune to challenges from those who accept the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective. 

 

My goal is to expose your tactics of attempting to bypass the processes of scientific review and consensus to scare members of the public into joining your fear-based crusade.  Most readers of your propaganda will never read – and have not been trained to evaluate – the studies you select for your press releases and “lists of evidence” – but they will respond to fear.  The primary issue I continue to stress is why, if you have legitimate evidence to prove CWF is harmful &/or ineffective, fluoridation opponents (FOs) have been completely unable to change the scientific consensus. 

 

Even if I understood nothing of how to interpret and understand scientific studies, and I was unable to detect the manipulations of conclusions and other tactics employed by FOs, I would not accept your libelous accusations I challenged earlier (08-26-2018 05:47 PM) that the ADA and EPA and ATA and any members who don’t support the anti-F agenda are "greedy, ignorant, willfully blind, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths, or Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim about the CDC, ADA and AAP, “All the so called "scientific" organizations were all pupets of each other with fluoridation.” 

 

Back to my original observations & questions:
If you have indeed answered my specific questions (08-21-2018 09:36 PM, 08-21-2018 02:47 PM, 08-21-2018 01:00 PM) as you claimed (08-26-2018 05:58 PM), then simply provide a date-time reference to each of your specific answers (for example, Q1 answered - 8/??/2018, Q2 - answered 8/??/2018, etc.), I’ll go look them up.  If they were in fact answered, I will apologize – and probably request additional clarification.  I have not “attacked [you] and every other opponent” on this thread or in any of the online comments you have posted.  I have simply pointed out that this thread was never intended to be an impartial discussion of the benefits and risks of community water fluoridation (CWF), quoted some of your comments, and requested that you explain them in the context of the scientific consensus and the majority of organizations and professionals who accept it. 

 

If you are accusing me of deleting a list of your citations after one of my challenges to James Reeves, your specific accusation, “Suppression of Science & Silencing of Dissent: Trolls are Treacherous ––– Within hours of the above challenging commentary [my comment to JR], I replied with the following eight citations, but the unscrupulous troop of fluoride trolls which seems to include the infamous vanity clum ‘American Fluoridation Society’ managed to delete it from that social media thread by tag team flagging it even more quickl.” is as false as your other complaints.  

 

 I certainly have never tried to have any of your comments removed from this or any comment page, and I suspect no other fluoridation supporter would either – there is no reason to.  It is far more effective to leave your comments intact, challenge your interpretations and conclusions, request clarification of what appear to be illogical statements – as I am doing here – and let others evaluate the legitimacy of your strongly presented opinions.  The fact is, the scientific and health communities have overwhelmingly dismissed your unsubstantiated claims.

 

You have a specific agenda of posting only the “evidence” you and other FOs believe support your agenda to “Demand AARP Take Actionand oppose CWF – a public health measure the scientific consensus accepts as safe and beneficial – one that the major national and international science and health organizations recognize as a safe and effective initiative to reduce dental decay, which can actually cause significant health problems, not to mention treatment costs.  

 

My agenda, and those of the other science-supporters, is to point out that tactics of anti-science activists (ASAs) –– trying to bypass the scientific review and consensus processes by influencing the public with fear-based attacks on the credibility of science –– are dangerous, not only for individual health and science-based initiatives, but they also generate an overall distrust of science and provide fodder for various conspiracy theories.  As Dr. Johnson stated (07-07-2018 03:39 PM), “I will be busy again for several days working to unscare communities where you and your groups have scared families with unsubstantiated claims.  It is more difficult to unscare people than it is to scare them.

 

Listing dozens of studies in a public forum that you believe prove anti-F agenda legitimate is irrelevant – I can list hundreds of studies experts have used to establish and confirm the consensus that CWF is safe and effective.  I suspect few if any readers will read any of the abstracts, and even fewer will read or have the training and experience to understand the entire study.  That is precisely why, if FOs have any legitimate scientific evidence to support their opinions, they should take it up with those experts who can understand and evaluate it.  I understand why the “evidence” presented by FOs to date has been rejected as sufficient to change the scientific consensus.  Although I am not a relevant expert, I can recognize flaws and limitations of the studies FOs promote as “proving harm”. 

 

On the other hand, making the unsupported and libelous claims I highlighted on my previous post (the one you have allegedly answered?), where you accuses the ADA and EPA and ATA and any members who don’t support the anti-F agenda as "greedy, ignorant, willfully blind, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopathsis not a scientific dialogue – it is fear-mongering – not to mention attacks on the professional integrity of thousands of health professionals

 

If you and other ASAs are able to convince the public that your agenda is valid, your mission is successful and you don’t have to experience the inconvenience (and with current “evidence”, impossibility) of convincing the scientific and health communities your opinions are legitimate – the public will respond (and has responded) to the fear of the alleged significant risks of possible Cancer, Lowered IQ, Diabetes, Hypothyroidism, GI Effects, Arthritis, Hypersensitivity, Kidney Disease, ADHD, Brittle Bones, etc., exercise their democratic privileges, and vote to end CWF – against the advice of the scientific and health communities.  The tactics of ASAs are akin to yelling FIRE! In a crowded theater when they see the glow from a cell phone – the Precautionary Principle according to ASAs. 

 

Q7) Another of my questions (08-21-2018 09:36 PM) I don’t remember you answering: ”By your ‘logic’ those who demand that drinking water chlorination be halted because chlorine has been used as an immoral chemical weapon (and creates a toxic brew of disinfection byproducts which have not been proven by randomized controlled trials to be completely safe) have a legitimate argument.  Do you believe that even if disinfection does help prevent diseases, disinfection policy is immoral mass poisoning because toxic chemicals are used and there may be health risks from overexposure to disinfection byproducts?? ”

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/chlorine-a-dangerous-addition-to-everyday-life/

https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/anti-chlorine-activists-hope-politics-will-trump-science

 

If both disinfection and fluoridation are implemented by adding known poisons (at sufficiently high exposure levels) to the water, and both are effective in protecting the health of citizens, why on earth does it matter whether one protective method strengthens and repairs dental enamel and the other poisons pathogens?  Does chlorine gas exposure or the ingestion of sodium hypochlorite and disinfection byproducts have any proven beneficial health effects?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

 

A side note: On (01-24-2017 04:35 PM) you claimed, “As part of the "better living through chemistry" model promoted by our government, we started fluoridating our water, generously spraying poisons on our food and in our neighborhoods, and pushing drugs starting with the polio vaccine that provided an income to the government. Today, the CDC holds 56 vaccine and adjuvant patents and therefore makes money on every administration of these drugs.

With regard to your CDC patent accusation, read: CDC vaccine patents – Robert F Kennedy Jr. gets this one wrong too:

 

One of the reasons it is difficult to counter all the “Gish Gallop” accusations ASAs is that a single sentence and accusation can take nearly 3,000 words to adequately address and refute.  The article referenced below, which refutes your CDC accusation, concludes, “Whatever money the CDC gets from vaccine licenses is not used to line the hallways of the CDC with gold bars. It’s used to perform more research in more areas of diseases that kill too many people.”  FOs excel at adjusting, fabricating and presenting “facts” to fit their agenda.

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/cdc-vaccine-patents-robert-f-kennedy-jr-wron...

 

I contacted the EPA scientist union that FOs allege arelikewise opposed to fluoridation and the politically set EPA MCL/MCLG (08-22-2018 06:59 AM).”  In July 2017 I wrote Chapter 280 of the National Treasury Employees Union, the organization which FOs claim supported the anti-F agenda.  The response from the current Senior Vice President was clear, “We do not support a public position of fluoridation.”  Also, the entire union never signed off on the original statement – check your facts before posting.

https://www.in.gov/isdh/24525.htm

https://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/fluoride-cancer-quackery/

 

To quote Dr. Haynie, MD (06-27-2018 06:30 PM) ”If they wish to change positions on fluoridation, Dr. Limeback and others have an obligation to make their case before legitimate scientific forums and not simply bring arguments to lay audiences that have been rejected by experts.

 

I showed several health professionals your specific charges outlined above and asked for their observations.  Their replies:

 

The ADA is a professional organization governed by its member dentists.  Dentists direct and control the ADA, not the other way around, as you seem to believe.  Neither the ADA, nor its governing Board of Trustees would ever attempt to stifle the free speech of anyone, certainly including its member dental professionals.  If it did, not only does it have no power to “enforce” any such unconstitutional activity, it would likely result in widespread, mass resignation of its membership, which the ADA certainly does not desire, nor can afford. “ 

 

There are no repercussions [for challenging ADA policy].  If you are practicing techniques outside of acceptable dental care, like claiming mercury issues and ripping out silver fillings to replace them with white fillings, then yes, you can be called out for not meeting the standard of care. That is typically under a state dental association’s purview. No believing in CWF? They might be approached by the state dental Association to try to educate them. But there are no repercussions. And you don’t lose your license

 

Claims like these promote the fairy tale that only dentists and the ADA understand CWF's benefits.   For reasons I don't entirely understand the anti's allegations of malfeasance and worse stick a bit to dentists in these public debates. But dentists are but a small sliver of the overwhelming professional and scientific consensus that CWF prevents cavities, is important and safe.  It is simply crackpottery to argue that fluoridation enjoys the favorable judgement of such a spectrum and number of legitimate professionals only because of social pressure from the fear of "loosing" ADA membership.”

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The enviorrmental effects of fluoridation are not limited to potential effects on salmon and other species of fish. The effect reminds me of what happened to avocado ranchers in Escondido after fluoridiaotn began there in 2005. The sodium content of the water surged past 100 ppm which causes saline intolerant avocado trees to developo leaf blight with dried leaves and low fruit production. I was criticized by fluoridation promoters who claimed it was not due to fluoridation becaue most of the total saline came from industries along the Colorado River and only a small fraction of hte toal was due to fluosilicic acid plus sodium hydroxide infusions required to neutralize the fluoridaiton chemicals. But these individuals failed to grasp that the last saline infusions that wre responsible for exceeding the tolerable limit for avocados of 100 ppm was the sodium from fluoridation. 

The effect was so substantial that farmers objected so strongly here locally that the Escondido water district had no choice but to respond. But instead of halting fluoridation (where the water district operator there actually believes fluoride is a food and is harmless at all times to everyone) the city decided to build a multi million dollar separate pipeline for the avocado orchards that is reverse osmosis treated to remove the saline (and fluoride). 

Tax;payers of course have to pay for all thiseven though the real solution  was to halt fluoridation wihcih doesn't reduce dental caries anyway. But no, the city went with the new constuirction to save the trees from saline blight.

The salmon industry in Sacrameno is a similar situation.  Many things contributed to the decline in salmon runs over the years including a large drought one year. But fluoridation remains and droughts come and go, all while salmon populations up the river itself remain far below normal. What does this all tell you?

If fluoridationists had their own way and argued to the EPA that fluoride discharges into rivers where salmon spawn have absolutely no effect on salmon migration or populations, then fluoridation may as well spread to all the cities along the Sacramento river where salmon spawn and all the tributaries and other rivers where salmon spawn as well.  All fluoridation of rivers and people of course though is abolutely useless.

If we are going to discuss good scientists vs bad scientists, let's talk about the Kumar data which were thought good enough to publish, and yet that data was a grossly misinterpreted to affect public policy for everyone in the country. The mean difference between fluorotic teeth and control teeth was not significantly outside experimental error. The claim that fluorotic teeth experience less dental decay is wrong and made no sense in the first place  since enamel hypoplasia is a more accurate term for it, where thinned enamel does not protect teeth dentin as well as normal. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
Bronze Conversationalist

I don't give up anything I have stated. None of the tributaries are fluoridated. Only the main stem is. And the salmon levels remain far below normal there and the river there remains fluoridated. And as stated before, it may be that salmon can adjust and imprint the chemical conditions that prevail and grow in number again. But why is this necessary in the first place? There are many contributors to salmon population reduction and fluoride is known to be one of them. And fluoridation of spawning  grounds continues in spite of salmon population problems that have occurred.

You believe what you want. And I believe fluoridation of the river is wrong. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
Trusted Contributor

Obviously there is no concern for the dental health of salmon. Thus, artificial fluoridation of the Sacramento river, or any other body of water, is truly about dumping of toxic industrial waste with the pretense that humans, salmon, or any other species have some negligible benefit. This is truly worse than ridiculous!

There is no science proving any benefit of ingesting industrial waste, such as fluorine compounds. These are labeled by law as “category 6 toxic industrial waste”. Just telling the masses, and some venally interested entities, that there is “some benefit” does not pass the evidential burden that speaks for itself, regardless of all the opinions and dilution of damage claims  by authoritative bodies.

Obviously the motto holds true that, “the solution to pollution is dilution”, and the masses serve as filters due to wide spread gullibility!  Again, all fluorides are toxic componds of fluorine (F) gas, not meant for consumption: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0046.html

Bronze Conversationalist

The EPA does not regulate community water fluoridation. The agency prevents cities from infusing fluoride to a level exceeding the MCL's--that's it. They do not monitor caries effects of water fluoridation and they take no responsiblilty or liability for any city that decides to fluoridate its people for assumed dental effect.

Likewise the EPA did not know beforehand that discharging fluoridated water into the Sacramento river, or any other river where salmon need to swim to spawn, would be totally harmless to fish. The EPA didn't even consider this concern before fluridation was allowed (not prohibited) by the agency. 

This mirrors what happened in 1945 when fluoridation was argued to be a success in decreasing dental caries, without considering what happened to the bones of residents. It was later found that the presence of thickened bones seen only on Xray examination by experts, increased in incidence in fluoridated consumers compared to non-fluoridated. And decay after several years when all tooth erupt is the same in control and F treated cities.

Fluoridation has been ongoing without proof of safety for 70 years now, all to the detriment of those who freely drink it. We now have an epidemic of hip fractures in the elderly with 1/3 million cases annually, and of hip, knee, and elbow replacement surgeries. And why would you expect anything else when 70% of U.S. water districts fluoridate the bones of their customers without permission? 

The EPA, CDC or anyone else did not prove that fluoridation of people would have no effects on brain or brain development either before the policy was instituted.  

The CDC now admits that systemic fluoride from the blood has no ablity to decrease dental decay. And topical fluoride from water at 0.7 ppm is 2,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste with no ability to decrease dental decay, and saliva fluoride which bathes teeth continuously at 0.016 ppm in a 1 ppm fluoridated city, 94,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste, is also worthless. Fluoridated water is useless, harmful, illegal, and its promotion is a false policy. The problem is difficult to overcome becaue of false beliefs that are widespread, but neverthtless deserves to be overcome.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
Bronze Conversationalist

We've already gone over this. There is no media report that blames the collapse on fluoride discharges that occurred prior to it. I made the claim, not the news media. The news once tried to claim that it is not the fluoridoatn of the water becasue the collapse occurred before fluoridaiotn, but htis is false. The south section of the city began fluoridating before the event that caused the complete collapse of the fishing industry on the river.  The public was not told about fluoridating until the rest of the city did so nearlya year later.

In the 1970's and 80's the salmon leaving the mainstream River routienly numbered 100,000. The number began to decline in 2007 because of, it is argued, a severe drought. This is probably ture among other factors as well. But notice that since Sacramento became fluoridated with a fluoridated water discharge pipe in the river, the number in the main stream has remained dismal until 2017, at or less than 10,000 per season. This is a 90% collapse of the fish that caused a 100% collapse in the fishing industry with loss of thousands of jobs.  This is reported in:  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586 but the authors do not know anything about fluoridation or when it began so it is not discussed of course.

We only have an incomplete view of what actually goes on because so many variables are in play, but the point is that it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon in the face of the Univ. of Oregon data, and flatly false to claim that fluoridation only happened after the complete collapse. And it is absurd to continue fluoridation of the river when the salmon industry has been so destroyed.

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
Bronze Conversationalist

Dr. Sauerheber,

 

Now you are down to, "it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon," from your original claim that fluoridation was responsible for the collapse.  

 

You have a theory that effluent with some amount of fluoride in it (now it's) in part was responsible for this.  You have no idea what the average daily discharge is into the river.  You have no idea what the flow of the river is at the point of discharge.  You have no idea what the amount of fluoride is in the effluent, because it's never been measured.  This is important, fundamental data.  

 

You said that fluoridation began in 2010.  

 

Thank you for your link http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586  .  On it we see a bar graph which confirms what I already said.  Chinook salmon returns hit an all time low in 2009.  In 2010, the same year that fluoridation began, salmon abundance improved.  And, as I previously said, it improved until 2013.  Take a look at the bar graph.

 

You have no knowledge of even the most fundamental data required to make such an outrageous claim.  Moreover, historical trends of salmon runs completely debunk the idea.  

 

There is nothing left to be said about it.  

Bronze Conversationalist

I'm looking at the bar graph. There are there categories in each bar and the mainstream category of salmon returns is what was decimated and remained so all through the years reported, to 2017, just as I said.

The city of Sacramento fluoridates all water supplies to the city, not just some of the water. Just like all other cities that fluoridate, the wastewater contains the same concentration of fluoride as what was put into it at the fluoridation facililty. All discharged water from municipal pipes comes from comercial and residential users that is fully fluoridated. There is no other water source to dilute it. The 1 ppm fluuoridated waste water is discharged directly into the river because the sanitizing treatment is not able to remove fluoride. Fluoride ion is a sphere, the same size as a water molecule, and cannot be filtered.  I don't need to travel by boat to the discharge output point and take a sample of the discharge water to know that it is fluoridated. 

No one can say or has said that only fluoridation is entirely responsible for the full collapse of the salmon fishing industry in Sacramento, and that includes me. Fluoride discharges into the river where they spawn contributed its share to the collapse. It was the last obviously added contributor before the collapse became complete.  Fluoridation began many months before, not during or after, the discovered total collapse. My memory recalls the collapse being full and reported by fishermen and Pacific Fisheries and the news media in late 2010. The fluoridation of Sacramento had already begun many months prior to this, and if I recall in early 2010. The point is that fluoridation was ongoing prior to the reported full collapse.

Fluoridation is still ongoing and those who conduct it care less about the fact that salmon are adversely affected by low level fluoride in water and that Sacramento River salmon are abnormally reduced in number.  Fluoridation promoters appear so gravely concerned about caries reduction that documented effects on human bone (and any effects the discharged wastewater may have on  salmon popoulations) are not a concern.

But eating and drinking fluoride in any amount do not lead to lowered incidence of caries, and adverse effects on human health as well as environmental issues for the treated wastewater are indeed the concern. Fluoridation is unnecessary, harmful, and must be halted.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Bronze Conversationalist

Richard, your quote:  "I'm looking at the bar graph. There are there categories in each bar and the mainstream category of salmon returns is what was decimated and remained so all through the years reported, to 2017, just as I said."

 

Response:  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586%C2%A0

 

The Bar Graph is entitled "Figure 1."  There are three categories in each bar.  1.)  Hatcheries, 2.) Mainstem (not mainstream), and 3.) Tributaries.  

 

All three categories showed improvement after 2009.  I invite all readers of this thread to look at the graph and judge this for themselves.  

 

You said water fluoridation began in 2010. You also said water fluoridation was responsible for the collapse of the salmon industry in the Sacramento River.  The evidence does not support your outrageous theory.  There is no evidence for it.  Indeed, the evidence debunks your claims. 

 

Give it up, Richard.  You are embarrassing yourself.  You call yourself a scientist, yet you are unable to accept empirical evidence, the foundation of all science, when it disagrees with your agenda.   

Bronze Conversationalist

Excuse me? I explained the truth, which is beng ignored by fluoridation promoters. 1 ppm fluoricated water lifetime causes bone fluoride to accumulate  to thousands of mg/kg in bone, higher than in fluoridated toothpaste, where it does not belong and where it alters the crystal structure of bone. The NRC data proved that levels above this increase hip fractures compared to the incidence at 1 ppm. This does not translate into the idea that no increased fractures occur at 1 ppm. Thatl is absurd. The NRC did not look at exposures less than 1 ppm. So the clakin that Dr. Osmunson is somehow flawed is incorrect.

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
Bronze Conversationalist

I see a report from a salmon fishing tour boat company that now after 8 years since the collapse salmon appear to be increasing in number. But how much of this is advertising to attract more customers I don't know. It is not a scientific assessment but let's hope it is real. This is in the Red Bluff area which is north of Sacramento. So this is good news but again it is possible, as stated before, that those salmon that could spawn in water at levels between 0.2 and 1 ppm (due to fluoridated water discharges) could imprint at this newer set point to be able to return to that water again later..

This does not detract from the claim that fluoride discharges were a final straw that completed the approximately 90% collapse in the first place that the news media reported which caused salmon fishing industries to shut down.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
Bronze Conversationalist

RS:  "This does not detract from the claim that fluoride discharges were a final straw that completed the approximately 90% collapse in the first place that the news media reported which caused salmon fishing industries to shut down."

 

Response:  Please provide a link to a news media report which stated this.