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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 381 of 1,304

BillO, your quote:  

 

"I answered your question about Dr. Limeback.  

 You are in such a hurry with your bias, that you fail to read the answers to your questions.   

 No sense in responding to you when you don't appear to want to listen."

 

Response:  Please provide the time-stamp reference in this thread where you addressed the deceptive behavior of Dr. Limeback.  I don't see it.  

 

The issue, if you had bothered to read my comment, was that Dr. Limeback allowed a photograph of teeth, which he took, to appear in an article written by attorney Michael Connett.  The teeth were diagnosed by unqualified Mr. Connett as being "Mild Dental Fluorosis."  The most prominent feature of these teeth were orange-brown stains which are believed to be Iron stains.  .  .  .  Please re-read my comment - SLOWLY - so that you can take time to understand what is being said, rather than responding with your classic knee-jerk reaction of trying to establish your superiority.  .  .  Then you may respond to my comment which you said you responded to, but never really did.

 

Your quote:  "You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself.  I can't speak for someone else.  I have not seen the patient.  Looks like dental fluorosis to me and in better light it might be moderate, but certainly mild."


Response.  Looks like dental fluorosis to you.  Since you failed to answer the primary issue, and since you are claiming to be an authority on the issue, let me ask you:  Don't you find it a little deceptive to put a photograph of teeth, whose most noticeable feature are iron stains - which have nothing to do with fluoride - on a website dedicated to abolition of Community Water Fluroidation?   And don't you find it deceptive to put these iron-stained teeth on this Website --- When These Teeth Have Even Never Touched Optimally Fluoridated Water?  


Your quote again:  ""You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself."

Response:  Dr. Limeback refused to engage me when I caught him in a second lie. 

 

He had said, "And there are no studies to show fluoridation has any benefit for adults or seniors.”

 07-24-2018 09:37 PM of this thread - https://community.aarp.org/t5/Brain-Health/Support-for-AARP-to-take-action-on-Fluoridation/td-p/2021...

I pointed his attention to two studies, one by Professor Gary Slade of Adelaide University.  The other demonstrating the benefits of fluoride toothpaste on adults & seniors. 

 

To that, he responded, “This study . .  was a cross-sectional ecological study and not a randomized clinical trial. It stopped at about 40 years of exposure and found only one tooth difference between fluoride and non-fluoride exposed.”

 

To be clear, when he said, “And there are no studies to show fluoridation has any benefit for adults or seniors,” he was fully aware of at least one study which did show benefit to adults & seniors.  Because, how could he explain how he could not be aware of a study and truthfully say that there were no studies of this kind; yet comment on the merits of that study.

In that Limeback lie, there were two logical solutions to the obvious paradox that I caught him in:   1.) Either he was not truthful in his first comment -- He was aware of that study while saying no such study existed; or 2.) he was truthful, he hadn't been aware of the study, and yet he commented on the merits of this study about which he had no knowledge. 

 

It seems that, like most of those in the anti-water-fluoridation fringe group, when his comments are put under scrutiny, Dr. Limeback refuses to engage in discussion and sees the futility of defending what he has said. 

 

  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 382 of 1,304

David,

 

I answered your question about Dr. Limeback.  

 

You are in such a hurry with your bias, that you fail to read the answers to your questions.   

 

No sense in responding to you when you don't appear to want to listen.

 

David, why don't you present your definition of mild dental fluorosis and what you think the patient has?   

 

You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself.  I can't speak for someone else.  I have not seen the patient.  Looks like dental fluorosis to me and in better light it might be moderate, but certainly mild.  

 

Hardy wrote the best dental school text book on preventive dental care and is the worlds authority on dental fluorosis.   You need to be very slow and confident to dispute Hardy.

 

I don't think you have the credentials, experience, or references to dispute Hardy or anyone else on these comments.

 

Bottom line, too many are ingesting too much fluoride.  

 

Dean JA (10 August 2015). McDonald and Avery's Dentistry for the Child and Adolescent (10th ed.). Elsevier Health Sciences. p. 132. ISBN 978-0-323-28746-3.  is reasonably consistent with others in defining the degrees of dental fluorosis. 

 

Dental fluorosis is discoloration inside the tooth and in some cases, actual physical damage to the teeth.  Severity is dependent on the age, dose, duration, of the individual during the exposure.

 

The "very mild" form of fluorosis, has small, opaque, paper white usually lateral streaks or areas scattered irregularly over the tooth, covering less than 25% of the clinical crown.  

 

In the "mild" form of the disease, these mottled patches can involve up to half of the surface area of the teeth.

 

In the "moderate" more than half of the tooth and all surfaces are affected and teeth may be ground down and/or brown stains frequently "disfigure" the teeth.

 

"Severe" fluorosis is characterized by brown discoloration and discrete or confluent pitting; brown stains are widespread and teeth often present a corroded-looking appearance.

 

Diagnosis coding of the disease Is, ICD-9-cm 520.3, ICD-10 K00.3  (ICD is International Classification of Disease)  

 

Does the picture look like more than 25% of the tooth has white lines? I think so. . . at least mild.

 

Does the picture look like more than 50%.  With careful evaluation of the patient, dry the teeth, get the light good and we might see more than 50% of the tooth showing white lines and that would be moderate.

 

I would rule out very mild or severe dental fluorosis for that patient based on the picture.

 

However, not all teeth fit thedefinition.   For example, I have see mild dental fluorosis with pitting and brown stains in just a small area.  Because it is so small, I would call it mild instead of moderate.  And just saw a patient last week where another dentist called the patient's dental fluorosis mild and she did not have brown stains but significant pitting.  

 

You have fixated on something you are not competent to argue, simply in an attempt to discredit and argue.

 

Have a happy holiday and relax.  Ponder on why 60% of children have dental fluorosis and why?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 383 of 1,304

David,

 

I answered your question about Dr. Limeback.  

 

You are in such a hurry with your bias, that you fail to read the answers to your questions.   

 

No sense in responding to you when you don't appear to want to listen.

 

David, why don't you present your definition of mild dental fluorosis and what you think the patient has?   

 

You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself.  I can't speak for someone else.  I have not seen the patient.  Looks like dental fluorosis to me and in better light it might be moderate, but certainly mild.  

 

Hardy wrote the best dental school text book on preventive dental care and is the worlds authority on dental fluorosis.   You need to be very slow and confident to dispute Hardy.

 

I don't think you have the credentials, experience, or references to dispute Hardy or anyone else on these comments.

 

Bottom line, too many are ingesting too much fluoride.  

 

Dean JA (10 August 2015). McDonald and Avery's Dentistry for the Child and Adolescent (10th ed.). Elsevier Health Sciences. p. 132. ISBN 978-0-323-28746-3.  is reasonably consistent with others in defining the degrees of dental fluorosis. 

 

Dental fluorosis is discoloration inside the tooth and in some cases, actual physical damage to the teeth.  Severity is dependent on the age, dose, duration, of the individual during the exposure.

 

The "very mild" form of fluorosis, has small, opaque, paper white usually lateral streaks or areas scattered irregularly over the tooth, covering less than 25% of the clinical crown.  

 

In the "mild" form of the disease, these mottled patches can involve up to half of the surface area of the teeth.

 

In the "moderate" more than half of the tooth and all surfaces are affected and teeth may be ground down and/or brown stains frequently "disfigure" the teeth.

 

"Severe" fluorosis is characterized by brown discoloration and discrete or confluent pitting; brown stains are widespread and teeth often present a corroded-looking appearance.

 

Diagnosis coding of the disease Is, ICD-9-cm 520.3, ICD-10 K00.3  (ICD is International Classification of Disease)  

 

However, not all teeth fit that definition.   For example, I have see mild dental fluorosis with pitting and brown stains in just a small area.  Because it is so small, I would call it mild instead of moderate.  And just saw a patient last week where another dentist called the patient's dental fluorosis mild and she did not have brown stains but significant pitting.  

 

You have fixated on something you are not competent to argue, simply in an attempt to discredit and argue.

 

Have a happy holiday and relax.  Ponder on why 60% of children have dental fluorosis and why?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 384 of 1,304

"CarrieAnne" says, "I'm losing count of how many times DavidF copies and pastes the same character attack in this thread on Dr. Hardy Limeback"

Response:  It's not a character attack if it's true.  If there is anything I have said about anti-water-fluoride leader Dr. Limeback that is incorrect or untrue, please point it out to me and I will be happy to apologize and retract it.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 385 of 1,304

The egregious dishonesty and deception I see is from those who demand water be tainted with industrial fluoride, a toxic calcium chelater in a program that is the bone fluoridation of masses of people without consent.

And here we have one such person, complaining about "deception" from innocent people who merely want clean water not intentionally infused with an EPA contaminant.

Totally nuts.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 386 of 1,304

“Compared to dentists, a growing and well-informed public is far more educated about the scientific facts of fluoride and fluoridation. These knowledgeable folks are the same ones the ADA instructs its dentists to denigrate.” - James Maxey, DDS

 

I'm losing count of how many times DavidF copies and pastes the same character attack in this thread on Dr. Hardy Limeback BSc, DDS, PhD, recently retired head of Preventative Dentistry at the University of Toronto. This is consistent with the tactics of fluoridationists and social media trolls who use  denigration as an emotional ploy in order to sow discord and disrupt conversations

 

I suggest Dr. Limeback can speak for himself. See his December 2018 interview wih an FBI analyst about his experience:  https://www.gallico.co/episode-1-hardy-limeback

 

Then there is the position of the IAOMT whose 2017 heavily cited paper can be downloaded from its website. The IAOMT membership is among the thousands of dentists, doctors and scientists opposed to fluoridation based on scientific evidence of harm. Like Dr. Limeback, the IAOMT demonstrates discipline, integrity and courage:  https://iaomt.org/resources/fluoride-facts

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 387 of 1,304

"CarryAnne" says:   "This AARP forum . . . is about the harm caused to senior citizens due to chronic exposure . . . It is also about the hubris of self-proclaimed experts who deny the evidence of harm and disregard the ethics . . "

Response:  It is also about the dishonesty and deception of anti-water-fluoridation folks.  For example, i
n another thread on this AARP website I asked your own anti-fluoride spokesman, Dr. Hardy Limeback: 

 

“This is a link to an article which can be found on the Fluoride Action Network webpage, written by Michael Connett which features a photograph taken by you.  http://fluoridealert.org/studies/dental_fluorosis04b/

“Beneath the second photograph it says, ““Mild” Fluorosis — Photograph by Hardy Limeback, DDS, PhD”

 

“Will you publicly go on the record now and state that your diagnosis of these teeth is that they have Mild Dental Fluorosis, as the article says they do?”  End quote.

 

Now this is important because Mild Dental Fluorosis can be associated with water fluoridation.  The second photograph on that link, by Dr. Limeback, shows discolored, brown or orange, teeth which is not characteristic of Mild fluorosis. 

 

Mild fluorosis is characterized by barely noticeable white spots; so unnoticeable that teeth are dried and put under special lighting for the condition to be photographed.  And these teeth are healthier and more resistant to decay.  Mild fluorosis does not diminish quality of life.   

 

So the implication from Dr. Limeback’s photo is:  This is what happens from drinking optimally fluoridated water. 

 

Dr. Limeback’s first response was that he didn’t use the widely accepted Dean’s Index Scale but instead used his own “VAS.”

 

He also said, “There is a history behind that case to which you refer on the Fluorideaction.net website. That young man had fluoride supplements because he grew up in a non-fluoridated area. He may have used toothpaste as a toddler and swallowed some but he had no recollection of that. That's all the fluoride exposure he had.  . . .  BTW, no one as yet has determined what the orange colour represents. My expert opinion is that it is extra iron incorporation into the enamel (Canadian beavers and many rodents have iron in their teeth and the teeth have orange 'stains'- that has nothing to do with fluoride). I hope that answers your concerns. Dr. Hardy Limeback”  https://community.aarp.org/t5/Brain-Health/Support-for-AARP-to-take-action-on-Fluoridation/m-p/20407...

In other words, these brown-orange teeth had never touched optimally fluoridated water.  Dr. Limeback believed the orange stains - the most distinguishing features of those teeth - were Iron, and had nothing to do with fluoride exposure.   And this photo was being used to represent a case of Mild Dental Fluorosis. 

 

When I see this kind of deception, which is WAY past not being science, it tells me immediately that these are the folks who aren’t telling the truth because of some agenda they are pushing.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 388 of 1,304

 “As a summary of our research, we are now convinced that fluoridation of the water supplies causes a low grade intoxication of the whole population, with only the approximately 5% most sensitive persons showing acute symptoms. The whole population being subjected to low grade poisoning means that their immune systems are constantly overtaxed. With all the other poisonous influences in our environment, this can hasten health calamities.”  - Dr. Hans Moolenburgh, MD (1993)

 

This AARP forum is not about the diagnoses of fluorosis in children's teeth. It is about the harm caused to senior citizens due to chronic exposure of decades duration which includes damage to immune systems, thyroids, kidneys, guts, bones and brains. It is also about the hubris of self-proclaimed experts who deny the evidence of harm and disregard the ethics relevant to individual medical consent, the human right to bodily integrity and the failure of AARP to advocate for its constituency.

 

See image and videos for why only about 2% of Europe fluoridates and that's mostly in the Republic of Ireland where citizens are protesting in the streets against the national mandate. Fluoridated salt is a choice in a handful of European countries that perhaps reaches another 10% of the population, although most of that salt is actually used in institutional settings, i.e. military and prisons. 

 

2018 Interview with Eli Dahi, PhD: 

https://youtu.be/fwukipamdxQ 

2014 Interview with Hans Moolenburgh, MD: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw3xbtS4vpM 

 Dutch.jpgDutch Deliberations

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 389 of 1,304

Bill O, 

 

This comment is addressed to you.  It begins with your name.  You may chime in on this:

 

Allow me to illustrate the type of deceptive behavior that anti-fluoridation folks employ.  In another thread on this AARP website I asked your own Dr. Hardy Limeback: 

 

“This is a link to an article which can be found on the Fluoride Action Network webpage, written by Michael Connett which features a photograph taken by you.  http://fluoridealert.org/studies/dental_fluorosis04b/

“Beneath the second photograph it says, ““Mild” Fluorosis — Photograph by Hardy Limeback, DDS, PhD”

 

“Will you publicly go on the record now and state that your diagnosis of these teeth is that they have Mild Dental Fluorosis, as the article says they do?”  End quote.

 

Now this is important because Mild Dental Fluorosis can be associated with water fluoridation.  The second photograph on that link, by Dr. Limeback, shows discolored, brown or orange, teeth which is not characteristic of Mild fluorosis. 

 

Mild fluorosis is characterized by barely noticeable white spots; so unnoticeable that teeth are dried and put under special lighting for the condition to be photographed.  And these teeth are healthier and more resistant to decay.  Mild fluorosis does not diminish quality of life.   

 

So the implication from Dr. Limeback’s photo is:  This is what happens from drinking optimally fluoridated water. 

 

Dr. Limeback’s first response was that he didn’t use the widely accepted Dean’s Index Scale but instead used his own “VAS.”

 

He also said, “There is a history behind that case to which you refer on the Fluorideaction.net website. That young man had fluoride supplements because he grew up in a non-fluoridated area. He may have used toothpaste as a toddler and swallowed some but he had no recollection of that. That's all the fluoride exposure he had.  . . .  BTW, no one as yet has determined what the orange colour represents. My expert opinion is that it is extra iron incorporation into the enamel (Canadian beavers and many rodents have iron in their teeth and the teeth have orange 'stains'- that has nothing to do with fluoride). I hope that answers your concerns. Dr. Hardy Limeback”  https://community.aarp.org/t5/Brain-Health/Support-for-AARP-to-take-action-on-Fluoridation/m-p/20407...

In other words, these brown-orange teeth had never touched optimally fluoridated water.  Dr. Limeback believed the orange stains - the most distinguishing features of those teeth - were Iron, and had nothing to do with fluoride exposure.   And this photo was being used to represent a case of Mild Dental Fluorosis. 

 

When I see this kind of deception, which is WAY past not being science, it tells me immediately that these are the folks who aren’t telling the truth because of some agenda they are pushing.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 390 of 1,304

The sarcasm is mistaken. The two articles describing experiments disproving time dilation were published in physics essays and in optics. The idea has been disproven theoretically, mathematically and,experimentally. This ,was brought up to remind readers that even regarded  experts make mistakes. 

But continuing with a mistake, such as fluoridation, in the,face of facts proving so, is harmful bias.

Einstein was a scientist who today would correct the idea.  Unfortunately CDC fluoridationists teject facts and refuse to correct their problem. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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