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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1011 of 1,426

Sorry to keep harping on this, but what you've said in your comment, about time and motion, is entirely new to me.  At your suggestion, ("simplly read the journal of Galilean Electrodynamics where time dilation is repeatedly and routinely proven to be false.") I took a look for it.  I found this review of the periodical itself: 

 

" So let’s say you’ve got a theory. You have decided you cannot keep quiet any longer — you have to expose why Einstein was wrong. (In particular, you think he ties his shoes bass-ackwards.) But no one in the establishment will listen to you, despite your advanced degree in personal finance and that you own a calculator. So how are you going to get your ninety-four page article accepted in the mainstream? . . . 

 

"Just like our friends over at Autodynamics, who founded a society to advance their own theory, the folks at Galilean Electrodynamics founded a journal to publish articles for their friends, and presumably for anyone else who can’t get their theories published in mainstream journals. Cobble together some papers, publish them in your latest journal, and presto biz markie, you can now claim that you’ve been “published in peer-reviewed scientific journals”." 

 

The Journal gets bad marks for "Terrible English," "All science is Wrong," "Irritated, Emotional Language," "One Extremely Long & Ugly Webpage," and "Completely New Definitions."  http://timeblimp.com/?page_id=298

 

I will say this for you, Doctor, your science is consistant.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1012 of 1,426

Dr. Sauerheber, we're a little off topic here, but I find your position on Relativity, interesting, to say the least.  If nothing more, you've given me an excuse to take a second look at the original experiment of the 1970s.  

 

I see that the theory behind the original experiment has been applied time and time again.  All results were consistant with Einstien's predictions.  In 2005 gravitational time dilation was measured from the top of Mt. Rainer over the course of a weekend using HP 5071A cesium beam clocks.  In 2016 the experiment was repeated from the top of Mt. Lemmon.  The results were consistant, and predicted. 

 

In 2010, more precise instrumation allowed time dilation to be measured at speeds below 36 kilometers per hour.  At that speed, velocity time dilation was measured at 10 to the negative 16th power level. 

 

That being possible, I also see that gravitational and velocity effects are incorporated into global positioning systems that we use today. 

 

I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but since the theory has been applied to various experimentation, results have been predicted and confirmed again and again and again, which is what we like to see in science, and the fact that we take advantage of a practical application of that theory to assist modern technology, which I use every day, I have no problem accepting the theory as fact.  In fact, I don't consider it a theory as long as my GPS doesn't get me lost.  

 

By the way, have you considered measuring fluoride levels in a grid pattern upstream and downstream of effluent discharge in the Sacramento River to prove your theory?  CalEPA would, of course, have to confirm the results.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1013 of 1,426

Thank you, Dr. Sauerheber.  This would explain why the new "Planet of the Apes" films didn't start out in the future, but followed a consistant timeline starting in the present.  

 

You've given me something to look into.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1014 of 1,426

The Hafele Keating experiment reported a difference in time measured by atomic clocks under two different sets of conditons that was not outside the measurement error of the clocks. But you need to read the small print to see it. Further, the dilation formula requires the velocity of the moving clocks be known. The planes flew in a circular path and had a velocity (net displacement per second) that was not used in the computation. Instead, ground speed of the plane was used. You might want to examine my published work on the subject in Physics Essays vol. 27(1) pp. 116-125, 2014 and in Optik, International Journal for Light and Electronic Optics, volume 168, pp. 974-986, 2018, or simplly read the journal of Galilean Electrodynamics where time dilation is repeatedly and routinely proven to be false.  Absolute time cannot sense motion of an object, including clocksd and peopole. So traveling in a spececraft does not make one age slower. Absolute time, again, simply marches on regardless of human activity. But the false concept prevails, much like fluoridation prevails in spite of the truth.

Biology teachers use the argument that lightning strikes cause the formation of the first amino acids that would eventually combine to make proten and that over millions of years could form the first RNA molecules capable of self replication and hence life would eventuallhy arise from inanimate matter. Modern colleges and universities are trapped in these views. Common sense high schools, which are not so common, avoid teaching the subject of lilfe's origins. Modern College teachers however use academic freedom to claim the extreme view, that it must be factual because life does indeed exist. The theory of naturalistic macroevolution, including that all liife macroevoled from some premordial bacterial species, is taught routinely as fact, much like fluoridation is taught to be a health benefit in spite of the truth, simply because of endorsements and printed media, etc.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1015 of 1,426

Chlorine is NOT added to treat human tissue. It is added to kill pathogens that commonlyl exist in water supplies. Caustic soda is added to remove organic matter from water, to purify the water. Aluminum is added to ;purify materials in the water.  Fluoride does not need to be added to any water system because it does NOT sanitize or purify the water. Fluoride is added for the specific purpose of elevating the fluoride level in the bloodstream of human consumers with the intent to alter the structure of teeth. But the program backfired and should be referred to as a bone altering fluoridation program. After 70 years of use in the water supply in Grand Rapids, MI we still have no controlled human clinical trials to determine if it is effective and if it is harmless. In fact, we now have massive publsihed work including controlled studies with animals and detailed broad epidemiologic studies and observational studies that prove that the program is ineffective and abnormal.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1016 of 1,426

Regardless of what the CDC or the ADA claim, they have no science to support the practice of water fluoridation. On the contrary. In comparison, in Europe, the only country that fluoridates their water supply to a greater decree is the Republic of Ireland, where Northern Ireland dos not fluoridate their water. The Republic of Ireland has one of the worst dental health in Europe, whereas Northern Ireland does not. So what has all the fluoridation done for the Irish dental and overall health? It has decreased it and damaged the brains, teeth, and bones of the Irish. 

 

Also, in addition to the Gulags in the former Soviet Union, Stalin used to fluoridate East Germany, which was under the iron curtain before the wall went down in 1989. Since the wall went down, East Germany ceased water fluoridation, 16.11 million people, with the  result of both dental and overall health significantly improving after water fluoridation was stopped. Thus, the ADA or the CDC have very little credibility. See:

 

Abstract

In contrast to the anticipated increase in dental caries following the cessation of water fluoridation in the cities Chemnitz (formerly Karl-Marx-Stadt) and Plauen, a significant fall in caries prevalence was observed. This trend corresponded to the national caries decline and appeared to be a new population-wide phenomenon. Additional surveys (N=1017) carried out in the formerly-fluoridated towns of Spremberg (N=9042) and Zittau (N=6232) were carried out in order to support this unexpected epidemiological finding. Pupils from these towns, aged 8/9-, 12/13- and 15/16-years, have been examined repeatedly over the last 20 years using standardised caries-methodological procedures. While the data provided additional support for the established fact of a caries reduction brought about by the fluoridation of drinking water (48% on average), it has also provided further support for the contention that caries prevalence may continue to fall after the reduction of fluoride concentration in the water supply from about 1 ppm to below 0.2 ppm F. Caries levels for the 12-year-olds of both towns significantly decreased during the years 1993-96, following the cessation of water fluoridation. In Spremberg, DMFT fell from 2.36 to 1.45 (38.5%) and in Zittau from 2.47 to 1.96 (20.6%). These findings have therefore supported the previously observed change in the caries trend of Chemnitz and Plauen. The mean of 1.81 DMFT for the 12-year-olds, computed from data of the four towns, is the lowest observed in East Germany during the past 40 years. The causes for the changed caries trend were seen on the one hand in improvements in attitudes towards oral health behaviour and, on the other hand, to the broader availability and application of preventive measures (F-salt, F-toothpastes, fissure sealants etc.). There is, however, still no definitive explanation for the current pattern and further analysis of future caries trends in the formerly fluoridated towns would therefore seem to be necessary.

 

Reference Information:

Künzel, W., Fischer, T., Lorenz, R., Brühmann, S. (2000). Decline of caries prevalence after the cessation of water fluoridation in the former East Germany. Community Dental Oral Epidemiology, 28(5):382-9. doi: 10.1034/j.1600-0528.2000.028005382.x 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11014515/

or 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pubmed/11014515-decline-of-caries-prevalence-after-the-cessation-o...

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1017 of 1,426

Dr. Sauerheber, an interesting comment on known and verifiable science.  You say, "There are many concepts that are false and yet are assumed true by those considered to be in mainstream science."

 

Regarding your 3 examples, and with all due respect:  

 

1.)  Did life spontaneously occur from non-life?  It's not my area of expertise, however, I believe this was a debate that ended over 150 years ago, with the answer being No:  Biology texts do not teach it as though it were fact. 

 

"The debate over spontaneous generation continued well into the nineteenth century, with scientists serving as proponents of both sides."  .  .  and .  .  "Spontaneous generation refers to an obsolete body of thought on the ordinary formation of living organisms without descent from similar organisms. The theory of spontaneous generation held that living creatures could arise from nonliving matter and that such processes were commonplace and regular."

 

2.)  RS:   "Time does not slow down or dilate due to motion as is believed by physicists since the idea was proposed in 1905 in special relativity theory. Time dilation has been disproven theoretically, mathematically, and experimentally . ."

 

Actually, time does slow down with motion, and actually, it has been proven experimentally.  I direct your attention to the Hafele-Keating Experiment.  http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Relativ/airtim.html

 

3.)  Water fluoridation.  That's what this is all about.  

 

I hope you don't consider the fact that I pointed out the inaccuracies of your comment to be a "personal attack."  

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Skanen says, "As a chemist formerly with the Army Corps of Engineers and whistleblower on lead in drinking water, I appreciate chemistry professor Dr. Sauerheber’s contribution to fluoride science  and am disgusted with DavidF’s personal attacks on this forum."

 

Skanen, if you can point out where I made "personal attacks" against Dr. Sauerheber on this forum, I will be happy to apologize to him.  Please show me the quotes along with timestamps.  If you are unable to provide such evidence, I will be forced to conclude that your comment is an unjustified personal attack against me.  We are, after all, evidence based in our worldviews aren't we?  

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CONFIRMATION BIAS: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1019 of 1,426

“I now realize that what my colleagues and I were doing was what the history of science shows all professionals do when their pet theory is confronted by disconcerting new evidence: they bend over backwards to explain away the new evidence. They try very hard to keep their theory intact — especially so if their own professional reputations depend on maintaining that theory.”  - Dr. John Colquhoun BDS, PhD, former Chief Dental Officer of Auckland, New Zealand and leading proponent turned opponent (1998)

 

It took over 70 years and the dogged persistence of Clair Patterson to get the lead out of gasoline. Leaded gasoline, like asbestos and fluoridaton, was defended by the Kettering Institute under the direction of Robert Kehoe for whom the infamous Kehoe Paradigm was named. I already referenced over a dozen credible organizations with scientific, environmental or human rights missions who oppose fluoridation in the 21st century and provided links to several documents from EPA scientist unions likewise opposed to fluoridation and the politically set EPA MCL/MCLG. 

 

I've also quoted dozens of individual doctors, dentists and scientists who have studied emerging scientific data and changed their minds - a few of whom have openly opposed fluoridation on this forum. Many more, like several in my home town and even some sitting on boards of medical organizations, admit that they know fluoridation is ineffective and harmful to some consumers but they won't speak publicly because of fear of retalitation from abusive fluoride trolls, their rabidly pro-fluoride peers, and even their patients. A lawyer I know called me this week to tell me that another lawyer is threatening to file charges against him with the bar if he continues to openly oppose fluoridation. Dentists are even more vulnerable to this sort of bullying as the ADA will revoke their membership if they persist and the ADA provides financial business benefits to dentists just as fluoride interests provide financial benefits to the ADA. Bullying is effective - but only for so long

 

Willful blindness and financial benefit affect both organizations and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt. I provided a quote from Dr. David Michaels, author of "Doubt Is their Product" and referenced the $289 million award last week to a man with cancer that unveiled the duplicitous deceit by vested interests that involved collusion between Monsanto with professional liars for hire and the EPA. I also provided a link to a relatively recent revelation that the sugar industry subverted dental authorities from pursuing sugar as a cause of cavities by diverting their attention to  fluoridation; here's another that straignt out says that public health officials should recognize the sugar industry as an adversary. I also provided scads of links to modern science documenting harm, a number of which actually include words to the effect of 'in light of these findings, we suggest municipal fluoridation schemes require a fresh re-examination' and a few of which are more blunt 'avoid the fluoridation of drinking water.' 

 

Emerging modern science, evolving medical opinion and the persistant voices of victims will end fluoridation. I'm doing my part to protect people & planet, just as vested interests are doing their part to protect a profitable program that causes misery to millions. 

 

2016: Uncertainty Bias & Agnotology 

2014: Controversy Manual

Agnotology.jpgAgnotology

 AARP - Your voice as an advocate with lobbying power matters. Oppose fluoridation! 

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NO CONSENSUS OF HARM: Fluoridation is a safe and effective public health initiative

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Message 1020 of 1,426

CarryAnne – You still have provided no rational explanation for why community water fluoridation (CWF) opponents have been unable to change the scientific consensus.  Why would rational, unbiased individuals choose to accept the consensus of a small minority of outlier experts and their non-expert followers instead of the consensus accepted by the majority of relevant experts?  Accusations that “fluoridation, like fluoridation promotion, is profitable to many vested interests” is simply another unsupported, libelous claim that fluoridation supporters conjure up when they lack legitimate evidence to convince the scientific/health communities their opinions have merit.

 

Your philosophical bias is evident when you arbitrarily claim that “even if fluoride did prevent cavities and did not cause dental fluorosis, fluoridation policy is still immoral medication“, and your statement highlights the importance of personal, non-scientific beliefs to anti-science activists when evaluating and interpreting the evidence.

 

By your “logic” those who demand that drinking water chlorination be halted because chlorine has been used as an immoral chemical weapon (and creates a toxic brew of disinfection byproducts which have not been proven by randomized controlled trials to be completely safe) have a legitimate argument.  Do you believe that even if disinfection does help prevent diseases, disinfection policy is immoral poisoning??

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/chlorine-a-dangerous-addition-to-everyday-life/

https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/anti-chlorine-activists-hope-politics-will-trump-science

 

Stating that there are “substantial objections of leading scientists and over a dozen organizations “ does not make those “objections” scientifically validated. 

 

I am not, as you claim, “dismissing hundreds of reproducible studies proving harm”, I am stating that CWF opponents have selectively extracted and misrepresented those studies from the thousands conducted and published over the last 70+ years which can be used to try and support their strongly-held opinions.  When one actually reads those cited studies, it is obvious that by, the time fluoridation opponents have presented them to the public, this “evidence” will have one or more of the following characteristics: 1) The study will have nothing to do with drinking optimally fluoridated water (OFW); 2) The study will deal with exposure to fluoride ions at far higher levels than found in OFW; 3) Actual conclusions have been deliberately distorted/misused/misstated to fit anti-F propaganda; 4) Conclusions will only suggest a possible correlation without proper adjustment for other potential causes, and they are proof of nothing; 5) The study will be unrepeatable; 6) the study will be demonstrably flawed &/or 7) The claim will be a complete fabrication.

 

The misrepresentation and fabrication of evidence is one of the reasons the reputable science and health organizations mentioned/listed (and their representatives) have not accepted the anti-F opinions and continue to publically recognize the benefits and safety of CWF. 

 

I would like to bring attention to another of Dr. Osmunson’s comments on 07-09-2018; “Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They [CDC, ADA and AAP] do not protect the public.  They are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust.  Those allegedly ‘credible scientific organizations promoting fluoridation at 1 ppm have not and did not review the science and follow the science.  They all waited for someone else to stand out from the herd and protect the public.  I do not call those organizations following the herd scientifically credible, when it comes to fluoridation.  Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation.  Change is very slow when following the herd.  Change is faster when following science.”

 

So, the CDC, ADA and AAP, are according to Dr. Osmunson, “so called ‘scientific’ organizations” – Really???  Do you accept his claims as valid?   How about the rest of the organizations that recognize the benefits of CWF – do you believe they are all “lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists” as well???

 

Dr. Osmunson seems to be trying to make an arbitrary and absurd distinction between organizations and the members and representatives of those organizations.  Do you believe that “they are the best in their field and experts” in everything non-fluorine-related, yet they are completely ignorant, don't protect the public and are unable to recognize and correctly interpret legitimate scientific evidence when it has anything to do with CWF?

 

I would also like to see Dr. Osmunson justify and prove his claims about all the science and health organizations (and presumably their members) that accept the scientific consensus on CWF.

 

Since 2000, there have been a number of scientific literature reviews that have concluded that CWF reduces dental decay, and none of these reviews reported any health risks from drinking optimally fluoridated water, only an increased risk of very mild to mild dental fluorosis.  They include: the 2018 Water Fluoridation and Dental Caries in U.S. Children and Adolescents review; the 2018 Water Fluoridation Health Monitoring Report for England; the 2018 Food Safety Authority of Ireland Fluoride Report; the 2017 Swedish report, Effects of Fluoride in the Drinking Water; the 2016 World Health Organization report: Fluoride and Oral Health; the 2016 Australia’s National Health and Medical Research Council Fluoridation Report; the 2015 Manual of Dental Practices, Council of European Dentists; the 2015 U.S. Public Health Service Recommendation for Fluoride Concentration in Drinking Water for the Prevention of Dental Caries; the 2015 Cochrane Water Fluoridation Review; the 2014 Royal Society of New Zealand, Health effects of water fluoridation: A review of the scientific evidence; the 2013 Congressional Research Service, Fluoride in Drinking Water Review: and the 2000 York Water Fluoridation Review; the 2000 Community Preventive Services Task Force, Preventing Dental Caries: Community Water Fluoridation – not to mention the 2018 National Toxicity Program fluoride study.

 

Again, if the alleged health risks alleged to be caused by drinking optimally fluoridated water have been proven valid, how do you explain the fact that 100+ science and health organizations listed elsewhere (and their many thousands of members) have gone against all scientific and health principles and not accepted this evidence?  The only explanation that makes sense is that the evidence, in fact, does not prove there are significant health risks of CWF, and the evidence actually confirms the benefits of reducing tooth decay (which do have real, well documented health risks) far outweigh any alleged risks.

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