Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

[AARPLynne]

Have you experienced age discrimination? Laurie McCann is a Senior Attorney with AARP Foundation Litigation where her principal responsibilities include litigation and amicus curiae (impartial advisor) participation for AARP on a broad range of age discrimination and other employment issues.

Ask AARP Expert Laurie your questions about age discrimination, and share your experience.

[n224188s]

I never give my real birth date on line.  That gives scammers an in to rob you.  I always use my B-day minus 10 years.   By the way what profile were you talking about?

Unfortunately, in my state, Florida, voter registration is public. So even if I hide my age, my name and address, along with all my children's names, are there for the world to see. I once hired an online company to "Delete Me" from lists like PeopleFinder. It took several months and my name disappeared but not the public records so money was wasted. Besides, if you pay the fee to these "people finder" companies, you can still access your records. They check to see if you have a crimininal record and credit status, stuff like that.

I have found many millennials and older to be very competent but highly indifferent and dismissive of older folks. Specially during Interviews. Their attitudes are "you are old and can't adapt to the new" but I make it a point of injecting innuendos such as "you'll get there too, sooner or later" when I feel the interview was a waste of time. 

When I'm asked about gaps, I answer depending on the situation. I can be nice or flippant if I feel the interviewer is just taking me in for short ride. Uusally, it's "I took time off to care for an elderly relative or to raise my children but always kept up with the changing times"... blah blah. 

[vm10947576]

I liked your response.    I started my journey for a position within Admin in Real Estate rather than sales over a year ago.  I am 64 years old now.   And, what I got was this question that depending upon my mood, either worked for or against me.  In the ladder, I really didn't care I guess.  The question was/is "Where do you see yourself in 5- 10 years".  Sometimes, I went along with them with the canned answer that recruiters said to provide.  And, sometimes, I look at the youth in their eyes, firmly and give a smile like, "Really".  If I feel really comfortable, I say, "I hope to be upright."  But, mostly, I say "I want to enjoy what I am doing, I love to work, and hope to do it until I drop."  I guess that is true since, Social Security's magical age is now 66 years old.  Hahahaha.   

[BettyB374802]

I like your responses.

[RonMesnard]

@BettyB374802 , a tip.

If you enter an @ you will get a list of possible recipients.  Without that, there is no way anyone can guess who you are referring to.  There are hunderds of possibilities and the forum doesn't indicate who you were replying to. You need to do that.

[BettyB374802]

Ron mesard.  I’ve unsubscribed. Tired of your criticisms. You don’t need to feel Obligated to tell everyone what they need to do. Hope you have better days.

[RonMesnard]

@BettyB374802, 

Sorry you feel that way. I have received 15 to 20 kudos so some find my suggestions helpful. About a decade ago I almost lost my house due to very poor job hunting skills. I thought I knew what I was doing but really didn’t have a clue as to how to find a job in a hostile job market. I was looking during the period where unemployment was .1% below a depression. Now we are at the lowest unemployment in a half century.   If you think you have it bad try looking when the job market is 4 times tighter. Since the only reason I didn’t lose my house was people gave me needed advice means I feel I have a debt to the community. I haven’t looked for a job in 5 years.  I know very well most seniors will react like you but not EVERYONE. I happen to know one person credited me and my advice for getting a job on this forum.  That was a few years back.

The adage “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks”. Is what preventing us from using the latest techniques. Bosses what employees to do things their way not your way. Most seniors are seen as trouble, so no one wants to hire us. Out of 30 seniors I know who were job hunting I and one other got a decent paying job. One of the biggest changes to job hunting is an application weeds out the loser resumes, so the human doesn’t waist their time on losers. It looks for words and phrases. Some are positive for the specific opening and others are a short cut to the trash. Any one looking for a job needs to know what the negative one are. Most negatives are not job specific. @aol.com is one killer. I know 2 persons who had that in their resume. One died jobless after 5 years. The othr jot a piza delivery job after being an IT manager. The first only got 2 face to face interviews in those 5 years but he wouldn’t get a up to date email address.  Luckily he died and his wife got enough insurace to live for another decde.  Thank GOD I wasn’t that pig headed! I started to change my resume even though I had a professional resume writer touch up that resume. Now I know those resume writers wrote resumes for pending contracts. They have no clue what staffing managers will like. That isn’t their market. I needed 5 serious rewrites before I had a resume close to a winner. My original resume was only about 5% right. Now it is 95% right. If I send out 10 resumes to 10 jobs I qualify for, I will get 9 or 10 interviews. That is how you know  you are cooking with gas. When it isn’t right, you will have hundreds of suggestions how to fix it. Half are opposite to the other half. When it is right, everyone agrees it is a great resume. IF SOMEONE REVIEWS YOUR RESUME AND SAYS IT IS LACKING, they are probably right. Their suggestions may not be right. Once you have a decent resume it is down hill from there even if job hunting is always painful. Next you need to work on interview skills. With a good resume you get enough practice to master that skill.

As for having better days… I am 69 and still working. I am making more than I ever have in my life and putting maximum in both my 401k and IRA. I have amassed more than double by financial goal to retire. Better days will be sitting in the Florida keys, on the beach, with a tropical rum drink in my hand. My wife and kids are set. I have a great portfolio manager and accountant.  My finances are all ready on autorun.  I sent the last year on estate planning I have a plan that only the ultra rich had last century. My wealth remains under my control even after I die so there is NO inheritance. If my kids get divorced or go bankrupt no one can touch MY MONEY. They can only use it per my instructions. Still, I am meeting with a financial advisor next week and attended a seminar on the recent tax changes. It takes effort to keep your hard earned money in your pockets and not in Uncle Sam's or some other preditor's.  

[BettyB374802]

Not looking for work, am employed, 

[sherrys21502]

Congratulations, Betty, keep it unless you are abused and micro-managing is abuse!

[RonMesnard]

@sherrys21502, how many jobs have you secured after you became 65?  Since I have had a string of short term jobs since I turned 60, I can tell you it is 4 to 5 times harder to get a job at 65 than 60.  Getting a job at 60 is hard enough or at least used to be when I was 60.  At 66 after an interview, I was told I had by far the best credentials and my interview performance 'hit the ball out of the park' she told me she didn't make the decision but I got the job for sure.  I didn't, they wanted someone younger.   After 65 if they have anyone who might be able to do the job you don't get the job. Age over rides credentials, experiance and even you you are more with it than the other canidates.  Betty is over 65. 

[JulieK260428]

Thank you Betty. I concur.

[RonMesnard]

@n224188s ,  I didn't know that about FL.  That is not all that safe in an age where ID theft is a multi-billion dollar business. I keep my credit scores locked.  I don't apply for credit even once every other year so it isn't a pain. That is better than life lock.  That is usually how the thieves get caught.  The banks are cagy about what happened to your credit score.  I usually warn them before hand but I remember once when I didn't they claimed it was something else but I said No it is locked and I forgot to tell you.  A normal person knows their score is locked if they don't, I suspect the bank tries to lure them into a trap thinking they have a thief.  The banks are who pays for most of the billions of dollars.

That is the curse of the young.  They think they know everything and old people don't know anything.  I see that with my own kids.  They start to wise up by about 30.  It is beyond them that you have been there and done that so you have a real good idea what will happen next.  You learned the hard way and they want to do it the hard way too. 

Well, I still think I know most everything but I have always been imature.

[KrisH182689]

When I left my job of 14 years, they had to hire 4 people to replace me.  I left because 50 out of 52 department jobs were let go or left first., plus a brighter future and more money. Then I was in a car accident,my back was broken.  After I healed I had to start over and gradually got to the top again.

When looking for a job, offer to work for free. Negotiate how long, as a volunteer so they can see just how good you are.  It worked every time for my husband.  The idea is good for all ages looking for work.

.  

[RonMesnard]

I would reapply but not hold my breath.  They might have had budget issues instead of playing games. I wouldn't set my hopes on any job.

[RonMesnard]

@robinsjr, sorry to hear but I am not at all surprised.  What you are experiancing is normal.  If you can't wow them off their feet the next best younger person gets the position.  There is a strong adversion to older persons.  You actually have the best chance in a super challanging position where the employer can't afford to have the wrong person in that position.  The trouble is you need to appear unbelievably tallented in areas they can't find competency. You need to have an amazing resme.  You seem to have that since you get interviews.  Then you need to blow them away at the interview.  Still, you are a long shot.

You have to convince them that it would be a huge mistake to let you go.  You have to ask the right questions as well as answer all yours spot on.  It is probing questions that shake them up in a good way.  Most canadates are just trying not to screw up while I try to show I can make a positive difference in their company.  I take extensive notes on each meeting which are complete before I leave the parking lot.  I am a programmer with expertise is several languages.  My notes for questions asked for my best language is 35 pages.  I have 15-20 pages for other languages. I rewiew these several times before the interview. They did want me and tried to shoe horn me into several spots.  I bring them to the interview.  Once I learned the technical part of the inretview was over the phone and I was left alone with all my notes.  I impressed the hell out of them, I still didn't get that job because there was a change of funding. I had a few job interviews with tests for the technical part.  Again, I was left alone. I also have about 6 pages of questions.  I have the different responces to those questions.  The ones that  provide the most excitement are at the top of my list or bolded.  Some times you need several set up questions before hitting them with your big guns.  You need to see their strenghts and weaknesses in an area you can influence then propose how your strengths might help them out.

[JulieK260428]

Lynne & Laurie:  Another poster wrote: "There are no rules which say an employer cannot ask your birthday."

Is this true? 

[lmccann58]

Unfortunately, the EEOC regulations state that it is not "per se" illegal for an employer to ask for an applicant's date of birth but that such requests would be closely scrutinized to ensure that they were for a valid reason.  There are few instances - only those where age was a bona fide occupational qualification for the job where such a request would be valid.  AARP believes employers should prohibited from requesting dates of birth and has urged the EEOC to change their regulations accordingly.

[RonMesnard]

By law they need to report that information to the dept of labor when you are hired so they are required to ask that information.

[JulieK260428]

@RonMesnard wrote: 

>By law they need to report that information to the dept of labor when you are hired so they are required to >ask that information.

What/whose statement are you responding to?

It's sometimes hard to follow conversations in these threads because I can't see the text that posters are responding to.

[RonMesnard]

@JulieK260428,

I was responding to a few.  Someone asked if it was illegal for an employer to ask your age.  AARP clarified it was not. 

I suspect age discrimination is strong during the hiring process but not after you are hired.  I am sure the addage 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' is true. I try to make sure I don't slip into this natural state.  I have known several senior job hunter who successfuly sabotoged their job hunt by not changing with the times.  I maintained contact with 2 for many years.  They both saw removing negative information from their resume is pandering and they wouldn't want to work for a company where that made a difference. One died jobless after 4 years they other became a pizza delivery boy.  Both never removed information that is usually in keyword search.  That is as bad as sitting on a railroad track waiting for a train to run you over. These were high level managers who were very smart but just had very bad additudes.   I never underestimate the level of stupidity seniors can exibit.  They make me look bad just because I am old. 

[JulieK260428]

OK. What follows is a typical example for y'all from a job ad posted today. It's listed under the heading: EDUCATION, TRAINING, AND PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE

Can you spot the discriminatory language?

Three (3) to five (5) years of experience developing regulated enrollee materials for a managed care organization or health insurance company is highly preferred.

Source: https://tinyurl.com/y929mkfe

Now just how many people are out there with exactly "3-5 years of experience" in any sort of work. I'd think that's a mighty small pool.  Or are they typically able to easily find just such an animal? 

Have any companies gotten in trouble for posting this sort of requirement, given that it's thinly veiled ageism?

[lmccann58]

Those ads are common and AARP agrees that they deter older workers from applying.  AARP Foundation Litigation has challenged in court a similar ad that stated 5 to 7 years of experience but which also stated "nor more than 7 years of experience." We argue that such ads have a "disparate impact" - a facially neutral policy that has a more significant adverse impact on a protected group - because it screens out the majority of older applicants.  That case is currently pending in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.

[RonMesnard]

@lmccann58,

There a a big difference between the 2 postings.  If the posting has "nor more than 7 years of experience."  that is discriminating.   They are looking for someone above entry level but not so experianced that they can't be shaped.  It is less age discriminary than you would think.  Tecnnically they should pick a 65 yr old with that exact level of experiance but I doubt that is what they are looking for.  I didn't apply to postings I didn't fit.

My advice to seniors is different than yours.  I say few seniors are in demand.  However, if you can show the employer you have something they want they will hire you.  I have been hired 6 times since I was 60 so it is possible.  Granted all but the one I am on now were short term 3 - 12 months long.  That was all that was availble to an old guy.  As the economy loosened up I landed a 5 year contract. 

My message has been finding a job after 60 isn't easy but is doable if you have the skills and the courage to give it everything you have. I don't think saying it is useless is helpful or even truthful.  I am in an industry where people start burning out in their 40s and I am the only coder I personally know who programs after 60.  I faced more discrimination than most of our members will face and got a high paying jobs even if it was only for a few months.

I had/have a unique resume.  It breaks most of the rules of thumb.  I developed it with the help of head hunters.  It  is a hybrid between functional and chronological.  Because it is over 4 pages long I win the key word scan.  Head hunters love it because within 2-3 seconds they know if I have the skills they need.  Once they have a 'live one', they don't mind taking the time, a few more seconds, to review my chronology.  They distrust resumes without a chronology.  They often hide big problems.  Once my resume gets to IT cheating the key word search is very much appreciated.  We are all about winning/getting the problem solved. By having more pages, I will have more of the needed key words than a 2 page resume. That insures a human will review my resume. Most of the qualified resumes don't get that far. If you are a job hunter and don't understand what I am talking about you need to understand this if you expect to land a job.

[KimC575863]

Statistics:

There are 108.7 million folks age 50-plus. This includes 76.4 million boomers (born 1946-64), compared with 49 million Gen Xers and 82 million millennials. Moreover, people 50-plus will continue to grow over the next decade to the tune of 19 million, vs. a growth of only 6 million for the 18-49 population.

OK, lets walk this logic thru.  Please feel free to chime in here.  A large subset of this 108.7 million 50+ age group finds obtaining employment increasing difficult (if not impossible) therefore, many throw in the towel, retire early (for less income) and stop paying into the social security system, and INSTEAD, become (prematurely) the recipients of it.  Over time, isn't this trend going to come back and bite the younger generation?  Because it means that a gigantic portion of the SS benefits are going to the 50+ generation much earlier than many of us expected (certainly ME, for sure), when in fact this reality is being forced on so many of us.  Many would prefer to keep working until the day we die, but if these choices are being taken from us.  Over time this is going to hurt the younger generation JUST as much (if not more) then it is hurting us.  Am I wrong here, or is it not in the best interests of everyone (young and old) that older workers remain employed? 

[RonMesnard]

@KimC575863, believing you are god's gift to business will prevent you from ever finding a job even as a Walmart greeter.  Your experiance will not be useful if no one wants to listen to you.  I am an old senior and because I can see this throgh objective eyes, we have more detractions than plusses.  To be useful I make sure no one ever sees my detractors and I am super successful at quickly finishing my tasks with no mistakes so far.  (3 years)

Look at yourself!  Instead of trying to discover what you are doing wrong you spend your energy convincing yourself that everyone is a fool for not hiring you.  I sure wouldn't because you have a harmful view of things that too many seniors share.  They are less than worthless!

I am not trying to be a downer but you are thinking pretty much like those other 3 who never found real jobs because of a terrible  additude. It will likely come through in your resume, cover letter and interviews. Unless you are a diety, you can't change their additude but you can change yours

to something more attractive.

How many how to find a job articles have you read?  I have read hundreds. Most seniors assume they know it all but instead they know nothing.  I have 20 pages of notes copying useful thoughts and opservations. How successful was I?  It took me 3 months to get the job I have now.  I went to less than 5 interviews. I got about 19 responces to 20 resumes sent.

Job hunting is completely about skill in job hunting not so much in your qualifications.  That is great for the poorly qualified.  They get the interview because all the better qualified canidates had their resumes in the trash due to 1 or 2 stupid mistakes.

When you achieve that level of success you will know what you are doing.

[KimC575863]

Thank you for your candor.  I do realize that things are different now.  My resume is long, too long I'm sure.  I have had interviews, but recently, I had 2 interviews scheduled where both cancelled at the very last minute (the night before).  One of these, they didn't even bother (or the recruiter didn't) to cancel the 2 hour phone interview they signed me up for and then just didn't call.  That's my other pet peeve, contract shops...

To be honest, living in a place where there is so much competition in my field, I would be more than happy to transition to something different or at the very least...go somewhere else to do it. Ironically, the only thing I ever WANTED to do in college was music and songwriting.  I was an honors English creative writing nerd, so to speak.  Somewhere along that path, circumstances demanded that I put my shoulder into whatever I could find and do it.  And I did.  And I forged a lucrative career as a right-brained woman in a left-brained world.  

Song writing ability only exercised to write weird Al Yankovich songs about crappy IT systems. 😉

Hey, it got a laugh (mostly). lol

What I enjoyed tremendously and was passionate about in IT was designing business workflow process applications.  Especially when they really did shorten product development time, improve communication across platforms, and even landed me in several countries in Asia gathering requirements and training.  

[RonMesnard]

@KimC575863, actually job hunting is a completely different world.  It is quite inferior to 20-30 years ago.  They used to try for the most qualified but that is too much work.  How they settle for a qualified person.  If you don't completely understand key word search for resumes you need to.  That is what selects whos resume goes into the trash which is 90-95% of them.  I remember listening to just how bad key word searches can go.  A company was looking to fill an extreme math position.  The guy who invented that math and got the Noble Prize applied but didn't get an interview.  The keyword search trashed his resume.  Being the world's expert he called them up and asked why he didn't get an interview.  He was kicked out because he didn't mention algabra in his resume.  Longer resumes often get better key word scores. Mine is 4 pages long.  Longer resumes need to be scannable, If it takes them more than a second or 2 to find what they want your resume gets trashed.  If you are not getting at least a phone interview it is because your resume isn't good enough.  If your resume isn't right you will be clueless because it always winds up in the trash. No one will ever call you to say how poor it is you just never get a job or an interview.  My resume startd with a professional rewrite then it needed 5 more revisions before I started to get at least phone interviews.  I would always ask about my resume, was it good enough.  Once you are getting calls it is much easier to fine tune your resume. There is huge stratigies for fine tuning your resume.  The first 1/4 page of your 1st page needs to indicate you are a bonified canidate.  The rest of the resume backs that up.  The formatting should make it easy to scan.  A well constructed resume begs an interview.  Only smart persons have that killer resume.  That is who you want working for you.

[sm5972]

Legislation is needed to remove all implications of age in hiring: 

NO video interviews (determines age, race, sex)

NO video submissions

NO electronic forms requiring dates of employment

NO more than 10 years of history required.

NO requirement of graduation dates on electronic forms 

I was able to find another engineering job at 56 after layoff and 9 months of unemployment - no severance from previous employer (most engineering companies operate this way). Although I had Younged-up the resume, there were so many electronic forms that required full dates, that there was no way to avoid them.  Complete fodder for discrimination.  AARP - there is the platform; just need some support.  

[JulieK260428]

 Yes, AArP. You've got your work cut out for you.

[RonMesnard]

@sm5972,  I forgot a few things.

1 An employer has the right to see if you have a bone through your nose..

2. 9 months is short for someone over 50.  The average is over a year but you are an engineer. The average hunt time was 3-5 years for someone over 60.  The economy is a lot better but you really can't gage until you are job hunting.  Then reality crashes in like a ton of bricks.   Think of those persons who have been hunting for over 5 years. They are retired but are too stupid to figure that out.

You figured out how to play the game.  You opt how much history is in your resume.

I thought unemployment only lasted 6 months.  I must be out of touch after handing a perment job at 67. This is my last job.  I don't need to work anymore.  I don't mind working but I hate job hunting after 65, it gets very discriminatory. 

[BettyB374802]

Surprised you would say someone is too stupid to figure that out. Condescending.