Social Security Fairness Act application

[RobertR580646]

I am 71 years old and worked for the Post Office for over 30 years. I am collecting a government pension and was not eligible for spousal benefits due to GPO.I do have an online SS account and used the online calculator on the site to determine my ineligibility, so I never filed a formal application. Since the SS Fairness Act was passed, should I apply for benefits now, or wait until the SS admin updates the application process for people who only now have become eligible?

[pl23usd]

C-Span will livestream the signing of the Social Security Fairness Act tomorrow.

Click on the picture or copy and paste the link.
https://www.c-span.org/event/white-house-event/president-biden-signs-social-security-fairness-act/42...

Let's assume it will also be streamed at THE WHITE HOUSE - LIVE.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/live/

[iamonewithhim]

It was already signed today at 4pm EST. 

[pl23usd]

Social Security Fairness Act Bill Signing Date/Time Change

The White House has changed the bill signing date to Sunday, January 5, at 4:00 p.m. EST.

Live events at the White House are streamed at https://www.whitehouse.gov/live/. We hope the signing will be live-streamed, so check the site before 4:00 p.m., but give it a minute, as experience informs us that events often don't start on time.

[pl23usd]

IMPORTANT!

The bill signing ceremony has been changed to Sunday, January 5, at 4:00 p.m.

IF YOU OR A FRIEND ARE ATTENDING - YOU MUST REGISTER FOR THE EVENT AGAIN DUE TO THE CHANGE IN DATE AND TIME.

[pl23usd]

[pl23usd]

Social Security Fairness Act Bill Signing Date/Time Change

The White House has changed the bill signing date to Sunday, January 5, at 4:00 p.m. EST.

Live events at the White House are streamed at https://www.whitehouse.gov/live/. We hope the signing will be live-streamed, so check the site before 4:00 p.m., but give it a minute, as experience informs us that events often don't start on time.

[iamonewithhim]

Thank you. You must know someone who is way up there on the totem pole. 

[NP88888888]

I think you should call 800-772-1213 to get an appointment.  I never applied for survivor benefits because of GPO, so on December 17th I called to set up a telephone appointment. None were available. I was told it would take about a week to set up.  I got an e-mail on December 27th with a phone appointment set for January 6th. They're going to be crushed with applicants.  Best to get in the queue ASAP. 

[pl23usd]

IMPORTANT!

The bill signing ceremony has been changed to Sunday, January 5, at 4:00 p.m.

IF YOU OR A FRIEND ARE ATTENDING - YOU MUST REGISTER FOR THE EVENT AGAIN DUE TO THE CHANGE IN DATE AND TIME.

[SDMdM]

I would do everything possible to, as soon as possible, for extra protection against your hard-earned, lifetime savings being taken by greedy, soulless monsters!

[iamonewithhim]

I would suggest you look at the AARP page on this subject to see why AARP did not support the Fairness Act. I hope when the new Congress takes over they fix the disparities created by the Fairness Act. Although I worked 22 years in government positions, only 13 paid into Medicare. From 71-79 worked for Federal Govt. and at that time we didn't pay into SSA or Medicare. So I only have 23 years in SSA and 13 years of municipal which is under WEP. I really don't feel it's fair if someone worked straight SSA for 39 years and made the same salary I did for my 23 SSA and 13 municipal years, to be getting less of a SSA benefit than I get with my municipal and SSA income combined. We want this benefit to be available to all eligible people and I just think they could have worked out a way to equalize the benefits for all after working on this issue for over 40 years. 

[Tonster521]

@iamonewithhim I do not think many of the folks "in line" for the bonus SS Benefit payments will read AARP's position or care about how the SS bonus payments will be funded. Based on your comments and replies, it appears you have knowledge of the SS Program and the mathematical formula for developing the Primary Insurance Amount (PIA) based on 35 years of indexed Earnings in Covered Employment (Average Indexed Monthly Earnings or AIME).

As you know, SS is a self funding system (FICA Taxes). The total benefits it pays cannot exceed the FICA taxes that Participants/Employers contribute. If SS gives unintended bonus payments to some households via repeal of WEP and GPO, that money comes straight from other participants. The SS Program has been drawing down SS Trust Fund reserves from 2021 in order to cover the SS benefit payroll which is approx. $1.2 Trillion per year and growing. The SS Trust reserve is there to support benefit payments when unemployment is high and FICA taxes low. We have had essentially "full employment" since 2021/2022 after Covid; and, yet, we will continue to draw down the SS Trust reserves until depleted unless Congress creates a solution. Their decision to repeal WEP and GPO will now deplete the reserve sooner. The best estimate is approx. $200 Billion which in time means about 6 months sooner. So, maybe 3 million folks will receive SS bonus payments at the expense of approx. 50 -55  million other folks, many of them low benefit folks who do not have a "gold plated" Government Pension or any kind of pension. It is sad that Congress voted to repeal WEP and GPO rather than reform such provisions. WEP  which was created by the National Commission on Social Security Reform (aka Greenspan Commission) in January 1983.was developed to stop overpaying SS Benefits to folks who had non-covered earnings that were not included in the SS System. Many folks appeared to the SS System as long term low wage workers living near the poverty level. Their PIA would provide 90% at the first bend point. At any rate, I am including a link to information from the Subcommittee on Social Security House Ways and Means Committee in April 2024  https://www.congress.gov/event/118th-congress/house-event/LC73221/text It is an interesting read. The testimony from Jason Fichtner VP/Chief Economist Bipartisan Policy Center and former Chief Economist for the SSA  provides a solution for reforming the WEP and GPO instead of a repeal. Others provided the sound financial reasoning for keeping equity and parity. It appears that advice fell on deaf ears and Congress repealed WEP and GPO which reinstates SS Benefit overpayments to workers with non-covered earnings. Congress did not provide a solution for paying for such SS Benefit overpayments. That is reckless as well as capricious and arbitrary. I suggest reading the National Commission report issued in January 1983. At that time, many changes were developed to avoid the SS Trust reaching zero by August 1983. The National Commission estimated that all changes which included the WEP would provide approx. 66.7% of the needed revenue through FICA increases and SS Benefit reductions. The remaining 33.3%  to complete the 75 year funding plan would come from a FICA increase of about a half percent (0.046%) in 2010 for both employee and employer. That increase was not implemented. Just think about the math and time estimated by the National Commission or 66.7% of 75 year which is about 50 years. That gets the SS System from 1984 to 2034 which was the projected SS Trust depletion date. With no approx. 1% FICA increase in 2010 and the repeal of WEP and DPO , it looks like the SS Trust will deplete earlier with SS Benefit cuts of approx. 17% to 20% for everyone. Moreover, there is no solution in sight. 

[iamonewithhim]

I don't know why people think workers receiving non-SSA pensions make so much money. First we got lower wages when working compared to corporate workers. Yes we hot a nice vacation and sick leave pto and health insurance costs were good, but salary was always a problem. While the executives got superior raises, the regular staff was lucky if the got 3% yearly. That's why I feel sorry for fire and police workers. If they didn't take another job or work unreasonable overtime, they wouldn't be able to make it especially with a family. My pension is almost the same as my SSA   because of WEP and also having to retire early due to illness

[Tonster521]

@iamonewithhim This is a follow up to my earlier reply regarding Non-covered Earnings (i.e., essentially government employment such as State, County, Municipal, School District, maybe some Federal CSRS participants, etc.). I found an easy to read article regarding the cost of benefits which can vary from approx. 30% to 40% of wages/salaries. https://www.getbenepass.com/blog/what-is-the-average-cost-of-benefits-per-employee-the-complete-guid.... You also may click on the link in the article and be directed to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). FYI, each year, the BLS surveys employers in the USA to develop the statistics that they publish. Having worked for 31 years in Benefits and Compensation for a Manufacturer with coast to coast operations, I recall completing such BLS Surveys. The article is easier ti read.  

[pl23usd]

IMPORTANT!

The bill signing ceremony has been changed to Sunday, January 5, at 4:00 p.m.

IF YOU OR A FRIEND ARE ATTENDING - YOU MUST REGISTER FOR THE EVENT AGAIN DUE TO THE CHANGE IN DATE AND TIME.

[Tonster521]

@iamonewithhim Your statement regarding lower wages for Non-covered Employment (i.e., government workers, etc.) is incorrect. I would like to read/see your source of that information. When evaluating jobs (public vs.private), you need to use competitive measurements. There is more to it than just comparing job titles. Also, there are factors that will vary by geographic location, industry, and government entity as well as economic and environmental concerns. I will provide you with one example of a thousand. Lets use the job title, Electrician. You can be an Electrician for a governmental building such as a school district or an Electrician working on the wiring of a newly constructed government building exposed to the elements. I do not know where you live, but today it is 21 degrees, only 7 degrees with the wind chill. 

With regard to Fire and Police Officers, large urban locations will provide higher compensation than smaller urban locations. Rural locations including some suburbs of larger locations may use volunteer fire fighters paid per shift or per diem and part time police officers. In my younger days, I knew some folks that used such approach to obtain a full time job with a municipality with a competitive salary and outstanding benefits.

Without knowing the amounts of your government pension which may use only three (3) or five (5) years of Earnings as compared to SS Benefits which uses 35 years of Covered Earnings which, in your case, many of those years (approximately 12 years) are calculated at zero, is hard to do. I can state that if your amount of SS Benefits for 23 years of Covered Earnings and your amount of government pension for only 13 years are just about the same (50% each), your government pension pays you almost twice the amount based on time worked. Your Covered Employment represents about 63.9% (23 years of 36 years) and your Non-covered (government) Employment represents about 36.1% (13 years of 36 years). This is why people think and know workers with government pensions make more money. Although this may not be your situation, many of the government pension start paying full pension benefits at ages 50 to 55 versus SS Benefits payable from ages 66 to 67 (unless accepting an actuarial reduced SS Benefit at age 62) unless disabled. On a present value basis, full government pensions at ages 50 to 55 (depending on time worked or pension accruals) can be $1 million or more.

Lastly, your SS Benefit calculation was affected more from 12 years of Non-covered Earnings at zero ($0.00) than WEP. I only used 12 years because you had 23 years of Covered Earnings (need 35 years for SS Benefits). As Gail1 suggested, simply pay the FICA taxes due on all Earnings and WEP will no longer be applicable. That means you need to pay 12.4% of your Earnings because I am sure the government entity that employed you is not going to pay an additional 6.2% on top of a very generous pension. So, that means if you earned $500,000 for the 12 or 13 years of Non-covered Employment, you owe about $62,000 in FICA taxes. I am sure you do not want to pay back FICA taxes on your Non-covered Earnings. 

[coffinec]

OK wouldn't be fair if:  SS refunded him the taxes plus interest he and his employer paid for the 23 years of cover employment? Then everyone is even.

[GailL1]

@iamonewithhim 

It doesn’t have anything to do with the amount - the UNFAIRNESS is the way the formula works in figuring the benefits - a person that worked both within and outside of the Social Security system during a substantial number of working years is getting the benefit of the 1st bend point in the benefits Social Security formula, when they should not because this is a true bonus for them, which is not correct.    That was the whole reason that the WEP / GPO was there in the 1st place to correct the benefits formula because people in this situation are outliers of the benefits formula.

Read @Tonster521 ‘s link to the Ways and Means Committee’s testimony on this subject.

https://www.congress.gov/event/118th-congress/house-event/LC73221/text 

WE here who are trying to explain this are asking for a new formula in place of the WEP/GPO to rectify this situation rather than just eliminating the WEP/GPO and start again with the regular benefits formula which is in error when this situation occurs.  

I am not against getting something which you did work for but NOT A BONUS OVER EVERYBODY ELSE’S benefit computation.

[Tonster521]

@GailL1 Thanks for your positive replies to my posts. I believe you are clever enough to know that I am writing from a fiduciary perspective and not my personal opinion. There is no logical reason or fiduciary reason to bonus/overpay retired government pensioners with SS Benefits due to a formula that was corrected by a Bipartisan National Committee in 1983. It was one recommendation among many to save the SS Program from depletion in August 1983. There ts an expression that states, "When you are in a hole, quit digging". Congress, at their whim, has elected to start digging the hole deeper. The SS Program was estimated to have an unfunded liability of  approx. $20 to $22 Trillion (75 year Plan) and Congress has just added more liability and did not even FICA tax the folks that will be receiving SS Benefit bonus payments. This is better than buying Microsoft in their 1986 IPO.

[GailL1]

@Tonster521 

So is it that we don’t have anybody smart enough to design and implement (via legislation) a correct benefits formula for these individuals or couples?  

Or is it that they lack the where with all to explain it to the multitudes that THINK they have been treated unjustly?  

I am sick of this method of constantly taking and taking from the system, this is but one example, yet not replacing it with a just income stream. 

I can only hope that this bounty which they seem to be going to get will help them move into other categories of beneficiaries that pull some back from them - like paying some or more taxes on benefits or maybe an added amount for Part B premiums (IRMAA),  

What would it take to create a correct benefits formula so that these individuals would reap a correct amount burt not more that that?  Because most of them are NOT low income workers but yet are being treated as such under the current (normal) benefits formula.  

At the very lease, the Federal Government should mandate that ALL earners be included in the SS system - that means ALL state and local governments - PAY UP starting NOW.

From what I understand it was the Fed Government that gave them this choice years ago.

SSA.gov- PERSPECTIVES: Pensions for State and Local Government Workers Not Covered by Social Securit... 

I don’t care if their pension system meets the federal standard or not - they all need to be within the SS system.

I personally know of several people who worked their whole career at a state or local job and paid into a pension fund - but their salary and thus benefits were calculated so low that they get a very low pension return - SO LOW, that now being aged, they also are able to get a benefit from the Supplemental Security Income program (welfare) - where as if they had had both pension and Social Security benefits, they would not be eligible for the SSI welfare and would get more in benefits in total.

Plus Social Security does offer more protections too than the government pension - like extended survivors benefits to dependent adult children and divorced spouses that meet the eligibility guidelines.  There may be other too.

What could we do to legislate:

(1) a correct benefits formula for these people?  

(2) to mandate that ALL state and local government be bound to cover their employees under the Social Security system?

Got any suggestions?  Anybody?

[Tonster521]

@GailL1 I will try to answer your questions. As you know, the SS Program is complex and for many folks (including some members of Congress) difficult to understand. The formula for the PIA as well as the mathematical methods for developing Average Indexed Monthly Earnings require a numerical aptitude as well as knowledge of the rules that govern increasing nominal earnings to real earnings due to inflation over possibly 35 years. We do have folks that are skilled in this area. However, it is questionable if you may find such individuals in Congress. Jason Fichtner former Chief Economist for the SSA provided a solution to the Ways and Means Committee in April 2024. That solution fell on deaf ears. Were members of Congress subject to party pressure, back room deals, pork barrel politics, etc.? I do know that if you do not know about a subject, you seek expert help and information about such subject. That expert help and information was provided to members of Congress who elected to not use it . What a shame for the members of Congress and the lack of representation for the 50 to 55 million folks who may loose SS Benefits to cover the cost of overpaying certain government pensioners with windfall SS Benefits and double survivor benefits. The answer is to vote the current folks out of office. IOW, fire them. I know that is a huge undertaking. However, support term limits to get certain members out of office especially when they do not represent the best interest of folks who work their entire careers pursuant to the FICA and pay the required FICA taxes. I agree that all workers should be covered by the FICA and pay the appropriate FICA taxes. 

[iamonewithhim]

Let's not forget all the money from SSA that was given to the Ukraine immigrants when the Ukraine/Russia war started. I believe they were given 7 years of SSI benefits for younger people and those eligible will receive SSI as pensions based on state between 900-1300 for life. They keep saying SSA is going broke and it's not because of WEP/WPO, as they haven't told us the billions of dollars they have given away to immigrants who have never worked or contributed to our system. If you want to give them money, I understand that as how are they supposed to make it especially with being in a new country and no jobs. But pass a bill giving them money from the Treasury Department, not SSA. That should only be for those of us who worked for it. 

[pl23usd]

IMPORTANT!

The bill signing ceremony has been changed to Sunday, January 5, at 4:00 p.m.

IF YOU OR A FRIEND ARE ATTENDING - YOU MUST REGISTER FOR THE EVENT AGAIN DUE TO THE CHANGE IN DATE AND TIME.

[GailL1]

@iamonewithhim 

LOL - what the heck are you talking about ???? A link to your source would be nice - 

You clearly do not understand how the Social Security System works - the Old Age part, the Disability part and the Survivors part.  

Like @WebWiseWoman said - Social Security and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) are two DIFFERENT PROGRAMS - they are just both administered by the Social Security Administration.

Social Security is an EARNED BENEFIT - and

Supplemental Security Income (SSI) is WELFARE for the aged, the blind and the disabled - for those who don’t have an earned benefit of Social Security or only earn a very minimal amount from it because their work history is very low in pay or in time worked.

[iamonewithhim]

Thank you 

[WebWiseWoman]

"Supplemental Security Income (SSI) is funded by general revenues of the U.S. Treasury, which includes taxes such as personal income taxes and corporate taxes. SSI is administered by the Social Security Administration (SSA). 

SSI is different from Social Security, which is funded by payroll taxes collected through the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) and the Self-Employment Contributions Act (SECA)."

[iamonewithhim]

My point was that the immigrants come over, don't pay taxes or FICA, yet are given benefits which should go to our people first. I wonder how many older people who need financial help as they never worked, need SSI, but our government does a poor job of getting the info out to the people. Thanks for the info. 

[coolmaine]

 Has the President signed the bill? I haven't heard anything today.

[pl23usd]