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Frequent Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 61 of 1,448

CarryAnne, the incomplete recovery of data from the graph is not an "epic mistake," it is a simple fact of digital extraction. In this case, I do not believe all the data was included in the graphs. I managed to extract a few more points than Adam but find it hard to believe that so many points are hidden.

However, I guess only the authors will be able to tell us if they omitted 20% of the data points - and they are not responding to critiques.

With the points, I extracted I managed to produce almost the same value as the authors for mean IQ values and the comparison of fluoridated and unfluoridated areas. Here are my values of mean IQ with those of Green et al in brackets:

All children: 106.6 (107.2); nonfluoridated: 108.3 (108.1); fluoridated:108.8 (108.2)
Boys: 104.0 (104.6)
Girls: 109.6 (109.6).

The fact you use the emotional "epic mistake" for a recognised and acknowledged problem of digital extraction (especially where authors do not include all their data points) and ignore these vey close values says something about your desire to avoid facing up to problems with this paper.

Extremely close and confirming their result that there was no statistically significant difference in mena IQs of children for mothers from fluoridated and unfluoridated areas.


 

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Conversationalist
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 62 of 1,448

Mr. Johnson,

"Thou protesteth too much, me thinks."  A reasonable person without an agenda would be pleased for new research and request/encourage even more.

 

Should a 'pill' be offered to increase IQ of the children, I bet many would ask for it.  If there is some idea or suspicion that something may decrease IQ of the children, that is equally worth attention as well as alarm or avoidance.

 

See what this Medical Doctor has to say about the study. https://youtu.be/oSTTQKo6jxc

 

I wonder why you protest so much and so strongly.

 

A registered nurse.

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Bronze Conversationalist
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 63 of 1,448

Yes, do listen closely.....  The Editor and editorial are severely lacking in dental expertise. 

 

Further, the Editor, a physician, has spoken openly in "print" media that he would not have his wife drink fluoridated water based on this study.  REALLY?  Like depending on one study on immunizations by Andrew Wakefield???  

 

Then, the Editor even mentioned Wakefield in the Podcast.  Yah, go listen.  Then he does exactly the same thing and makes a recommendation based on ONE study.  And he says that he'd recommend that pediatricians questioned on it recommend this too.  He'd have them drink bottled or filtered water.  He doesn't state which bottled water or filters.  That is poor.  Bottled water can contain up to twice or more fluoride than tap water and isn't labeled on the bottle's contents.  You know this I'm sure.  But for the readers here that really want to know, this information can be found by calling the phone number on the bottle, or on the International Bottled Water Association's website, IBWA.org.

 

Filters:  Which filters?  We know it is reverse osmosis and whole house carbon filters, don't we?  Of course we do.  We've spoken about this in other forums.  Don't try to decieve the folks here.  I'm an AARP member and won't let you scare them or their children/grandchildren who may be pregnant.

 

Nearly 75 year of credibly conducted scientific research that's been published in peer-reviewed, credibly recognized scientific journals has repeatedly shown water fluoridation to be effective and safe for everyone.  Over 6,500 articles are listed on Pubmed when the word fluoridation is entered.  One study does not reverse the overwhelming body of evidence on water fluoridation.  Neither do 3-4 which have not been repeated.  If and when something changes, the scientific community will be the first to announce it, not you and others who oppose fluoride in water at any level, even the natural levels that are in all water in the world.

 

Johnny Johnson, Jr., DMD, MS

Pediatric Dentist

Life Fellow, American Academy of Pediatric Dentistry

Diplomate, American Board of Pediatric Dentistry

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 64 of 1,448

Omitting 20% of the data points isn't epic enough for you, KenP? 

 

I cited JAMA Pediatrics per NYSCOF's Twitter response to Adam, not myself.

 

Listen to JAMA Pediatrics podcast with the editors and notice the bit about the "shift in the curve" as being quite important. Also that Green did sensitivity analysis and used individual level data in  "a very good cohort study." Plus the editors who are medical doctors noted that gender differences of neurodevelopment in humans and animals are well known. The editors also noted that systemic fluoride could still be harmful to infants and young children after birth because brains are still developing after birth. Dr. Christakis said JAMA Pediatrics had "several" stats reviews before publishing.  https://edhub.ama-assn.org/jn-learning/audio-player/17802991 

 

epic.jpg

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 65 of 1,448

CarryAnne - you claim that Adam Kruchten made "epic mistakes" in his analyses and that he more or less admitted this.

Could you please let us know what those "epic mistakes" were? (I couldn't see any) and provide a link to his admission?

I have seen extremely little of Adam  Krutchen's analysis on social media - I don't think many people are even aware of it.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 66 of 1,448

CarryAnne I see you cite yourself regarding the claim that "JAMA had two professional statisticians review the research. "

I think we need something more authentic. Could you please let us know where you got this from? Did JAMA announce this? Have you seen the statisticians' reports, etc?

it would be highly unusual to include 2 statisticians in a review panel (I have never experienced more than 1), but this may be because of arguments over the statistics used - that has been widely criticised by independent experts for this paper.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 67 of 1,448

"JAMA had two professional statisticians review the research. Adam only used 407 points because he couldn't find them all, leaving out 100 data points. Not good, scientific or accurate." - NYSCOF, August 21, 2019

 

This is too good not to share. Statistics student Adam Kruchten was one of a couple of quick-draw fluoridation apologists who were lionized on social media for sloppy attempts to discredit the recent MIREC study published in JAMA Pediatrics on August 19, 2019. 

 

Adam has removed all his tweets about this study and his critique because he had the good sense to be ashamed of his epic mistakes. Unfortunately, the repetition of those mistakes that were shared on other platforms outside of Adam's control will live on because not all fluoridationists have the integrity to admit a mistake. Consequently, those flawed amateur analyses will be cited again and again. Just refer back to the actual MIREC study by Green et al., the JAMA Pediatrics podcast, and Bellinger's opinion. Here's another useful summary by an investigative reporter. This isn't a matter of choosing sides, it's a matter of scientific truth and integrity. 

 

The image is from a cached screenshot of one of Adam's Twitter threads. 

Kruchten tweets on Green removed, Cached.jpgCached Tweets

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 68 of 1,448

How do we know lack of fluoride does not cause dental caries? Easy. Read and read more. And remember that on the world stage fluoridation only started 75 years ago and people had lived for millennia and many still had normal teeth.

 

1. The Ziegelbecker extensive data set on natural fluoride in water supplies proved no link whatsoever with caries incidence and F level even up to 6 ppm F. This includced the Dean data set that was found to be mere scatter in the 1 ppm F level area.

2. The Yiamouyiannis extensive analyses that included most major U.S. cities both before and after artificial fluoridation began showed no effect whatsoever iln anyh age group on dental careis incidence.

3.The Teotia and Teotia 30 year extensive world wide analysis of careis incidence and the levesl of calicum and f in water which showed that the highest careis incidccne occurred in areas with high flujoride an low calcium ahd the lowest incicence occurred in ares with low F and high calicum. This is becuae calicum builds storng teeth, not F.

4. The Phillip Sutton extensive analysis of all fluoridaotn traisl that proved all claims of effectiveness were from "studies" that were notr controlled properly. Talk about lies abounding--wow.

5.And of course the NRC data which show that F does not actually incorporate into the enamel matrix.. CaF2 globules on teeth from brushing with F'd toothpaste is readily dissolved upon eating/drinking and the F is swallowed and incorporated into bone, not teeth.

 

Dental caries are caused by acids formed by bacteria feeding on sugar in the oral cavity.

Personal testimony from trusted sources are also valuable. For example, my WWII 101st Airborne Uncle who learned how to care for teeth in the Army. He never had a single cavity his entire 85 years of life . He did not use F'd toohtapse or f'd water and lived on a farm in IN that had spring water without F. He was spared because he brushed with baking soda daily which neutralizes any bacterial acids before any damage can be done. He brushed after eating sweets.

Good dental care, which is made easiest when one has had a good level of dietary calcium during the teeth-forming years, is how to prevent caries. F has nothing to do with it and was a false correlation made on a limited set of data that led to the deceptive story told to the Public Health Service.

There you have it.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Avoiding Fluoride Ain't Easy

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Message 69 of 1,448

Some of my students have F reactions on skin when showering which began when fluoridation began. The way they cope with the red rashes is to use calcium gel on their skin during bathing. 

The F anion is the same size as the water molecule except the ion is spherical. So yes a traditional filter has no ability to remove F from treated water. Some properly made bone char (baked bone hydroxyapatite) can remove it, and modern RO membranes under pressure can remove it well. But only thise who can afford very expensive whole house RO which wastes much water could treat their home water supply.

All this remember is not accompanied with any effect on teeth.  Lack of F does not cause dental cavities. 

Amazing, no?

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Avoiding Fluoride Ain't Easy

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Message 70 of 1,448

Fluoridation is ordered into water by Boards of Health in the US using their police powers. This happens despite the fact that if any wants to consume fluoridated water, it's cheap and easy to do so while the water 'filters' that actually reduce fluoride are expensive and generally ineffective.

 

I depended on a high quality water filter for drinking water for decades. It may have reduced the fluoride a little, but it did not eliminate the fluoride and was insufficient to protect my health. I accepted diagnoses of arthritis, IBS, chronic fatigue syndrome, etc. not realizing I was being fluoride poisoned. Those decades of misery ended quite quickly when I switched to bottled water, even to brush my teeth. 

 

Moreover, some people shouldn't even shower in fluoriated water as liquids that go on the skin, also go in the skin. I know of people who have spent thousands on whole house systems only to find them ineffective for their needs. I know of others who have rigged up complex systems for bathing and still need to time their showers and change their filters much more often than recommended in order to prevent their symptoms of fluoride poisoning. 

 

There are obstetricians, pediatricians, thyroid doctors, kidney doctors and oncologists who recommend their patients avoid fluoridated water. Hence, artifical fluoridation of water supplies is a immoral medical mandate that harms many consumers, especially the poor.

 

Water, like air, is necessary to life. Safe water, like safe air, should be safe for the most vulnerable among us. Therefore, the appropriate government model should be the one adopted in many places that ban public smoking. 

 

ShowerSetUpRO.jpgShower Setup to avoid fluoride

 

 

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