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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 251 of 1,424

“Industry has learned that debating the science is much easier and more effective than debating the policy. In field after field, year after year, conclusions that might support regulation are always disputed. Animal data are deemed not relevant, human data not representative, and exposure data not reliable.” - David Michaels, Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health, in “Doubt Is Their Product” (2008)

 

I am happy to engage in a good faith scientific discussion, but that isn't possible with the troop of fluoride trolls who have overwhelmed this site with rhetorical deceits and attempts to bait opponents into endless bickering in order to create a fog of doubt in the minds of decision makers. For whatever reasons, their goals are to puff themselves up with perceptions of personal power and preserve profitable policies instead of protect public health. I've encountered them already in othe venues. Click here and here for my recent AARP responses. I also like SIRPAC's recent entry on this topic. 

 

Also, debating prenatal studies and diagnoses of dental fluorosis in children isn't particulary on topic for an AARP forum and agricultural scientist KenP's dismissal of Bashash et al. 2017 isn't really worth the effort. For the record, that was the first of three reports published by a multi-million dollar NIH sponsored research project conducted by reknowned experts at world class U.S. and Canadian research universities such as the very pro-fluoride University of Michigan and Harvard School of Public Health, as well as the University of Toronto, McGill University, Indiana University School of Dentistry, and Mount Sinai School of Medicine. All three reports documented significant and sobering neurological damage from low dose prenatal exposure to fluoride

 

If KenP, who I still maintain has no business on the AARP site where his purpose is to disrupt conversations with vitriol, rather look to universities in his homeland of New Zealand, I suggest the two Sept 2018 presentations by Irish scientists at Otago University are breathtaking. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 252 of 1,424

I apologise BillO538145. I always seem to mix you up with Hardy Limeback - who did recently block me.

So a heartfelt apology - especially as at one stage you did agree to participate in an uncensored good faith exchange with me on the scientific issues related to community water fluoridation. I referred to the possibility here:

https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2017/10/12/do-we-need-a-new-fluoride-debate/

We actually got started - you sent me a 55-page document which we were discussing with an aim to shorten before posting when you backed out. See

https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2017/10/25/new-fluoride-debate-falters/

At the time you were the director of the Fluoride Action Network (FAN) and told me you had changed your mind after pressure from your FAN colleagues.

 

You claim "Instead of focusing on science, you attack individuals." I think readers can make up their own mind from the discussion here  where I have even been called a "demon," have been personally attacked by you Richard and CarryAnne." All because I have been presenting and discussing science.

Neither you nor CarryAnne responded to my objective consideration of the Bashash et al studies.

So, sorry for the mix-up. My incorrect attitude was determined by mistaken identity. So go ahead. I welcome your input to discussing the scientific analysis I gave on the Bashash et al (2018) study in response to CarryAnne's claim and citation.

Please reread my contribution and respond to it here.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 253 of 1,424

CarryAnne - you say:

"I have read all the studies I've referenced and have both the training and intelligence to understand them."

Great. Then you should be capable of discussing the science related to the Bashash et al (2018) study you cited and made claims about. Yet you refused to. Why is that? Surely you can understand that it is logical for me to assume that whichever of the claims you make and citations you use that I respond to the response will be the same.

In other words, you refuse to discuss the science. You wish only to make your own claims and will not enter into a discussion of them.

Might I suggest that your refusal to interact with a discussion partner and use of long lists of claim and citations which you refuse to discuss is actually a "Propaganda technique?"

As for "ad hominem attacks" - isn't that what you did with me when I entered the discussion here - attempting to suggest I was hiding my identity, had no right to participate in the discussion and had been involved in research on "pesticides" and "development of high fluoride fertilisers." The last claim was an outright porkie and you later apologised for it.

You clearly are not interested in an uncensored good-faith scientific exchange - yet you continue even now to make claims and link to citations. Claims and citations we know from experience you will refuse to discuss.

Under your own definition aren't you just employing a "propaganda technique" - on a forum which is meant for discussion, not propaganda?

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 254 of 1,424

Ken,

 

How much fluoride is good (dosage, tooth concentration, urine concentration,  and/or blood concentration) and how much fluoride is harmful dosage, tooth concentration, urine concentration,  and/or blood concentration for all diseases and side effects?

 

In the context of a lack of consent for the patient, certainly public health officials and promoters should have those basic simple numbers at your finger tips. hierarchical evidence is a house of cards and the fluoridation house of cards is marketed on assumptions and estimates and guessing.  

 

The most fundamental scientific questions which for two years you refuse to discuss or provide any evidence.

 

Instead of focusing on science, you attack individuals.  

 

I never blocked you on social media.  I don't know how to block someone other than my cell phone for telemarketing scam.  True, I quit responding to you because you failed to discuss science but I have never blocked you.

 

You are assuming and guessing and simply wrong about Carry Anne and me.   Attacking someone is simply unprofessional and proves you do not have basic science evidence on fluoridation.  Focus on the message rather than the messenger.  Fluoridation is not a sparing or debate contest but rather health and disease (for some, life and death.)

 

You claim to present facts, but this last post as most of yours, does not have one reference or scientific fact or scientific concept.  All about attacking people because you don't have the science.

 

It appears you want a private conversation with Carry Anne in a public forum.  Of course other people can jump in, and when you attack people, I may jump in if I have time.  

 

I understand you are frustrated with Carry Anne because she provides so many references and you cannot go into detail on each one.  You would like to "divide and conquer" each study.  And yes, every study has limitation.  Use the same critical thinking on both sides of the controversy.  

 

And remember, the proof of benefit should have much higher quality research than the proof of harm.  We can have RCT studies on benefit but we cannot have RTC studies on harm. . . simply unethical.  

 

Now, get back to the basic questions, dosage for efficacy and harm.  

 

Dosage.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 255 of 1,424

”Fluoridation is against all modern principles of pharmacology… If you drink it, you are running the risk of all kinds of toxic actions… Nations who are using fluoridation should feel ashamed.” - Dr. Arvid Carlsson, neuropharmacologist. 2000 Nobel Laureate in Medicine and official scientific advisor to the Swedish Government (1923-2018)

 

For the record, I have read all the studies I've referenced and have both the training and intelligence to understand them. From my study, I agree with Dr. Carlsson quoted above. I also understand the propaganda techniques that make heavy use of ad hominem attacks and other logical fallacies in order to promote an agenda, techniques which are favored by fluoridationists, bloggers and trolls. I have also given honest testimony to my own health experiences which are consistent with fluoride poisoning. I speak for myself. Over 20 other seniors made similar reports about their own health experiences on this AARP thread before it was overwhelmed by fluoride trolls in June 2018. 

 

My preference is to discuss data and ethics rather than argue opinions on specific scientific minutea or personalities. To that end, consider that 2018 reports from US NHANES data document that over half of American teens have experienced fluoride overdose during early childhood evidenced by dental fluorosis in permanent teeth (Wiener et al. 2018). Also consider that American reports publishd in peer-reviewed scientific sources validate that at least 37% of American babies exceed the upper tolerable level of fluoride exposure assumed safe (Harriehausen et al. 2018) plus all the other studies I've summarized in this forum thread that have been ignored by the fluoridationists or selectively & spuriously dismissed. 

 

Then consider the suggestions of scientists that doctors should educate parents not to use too much fluoridated water in prepared cereals, etc. for their young children because of risk of fluoride overdose (Zohoori et al. 2012) and pro-fluoride scientists contorted efforts that argue in favor of fluoridated tap water because cavities are a more immediate threat than lead poisoning to children (Sanders & Slade 2017). Really?!

 

I suggest it's those who promote fluoridation who are intellectually challenged when they can't see, as does Nobel Laureate Dr. Arvid Carlsson, that adding a drug to water that renders water unsafe for many consumers as well as increasing the lead exposure for all consumers is an immoral & shameful action.

 

  • See Sandy, Utah news for a current example of what can go wrong with fluoridation. 

 

  • See image below for a demonstration of how inappropriate it is to assume there is any dose control over a drug added to water supplies. 

 

DoseQuiz.jpegDose Quiz

 

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 256 of 1,424

Come on Bill, make up your mind. You block me on social media and think you now have the right to intervene in a discussion here with someone else. I am sure you and CarryAnne are colleagues - but why do you not let her speak for herself.

It has been me who has presented facts and have not employed a single arrow, character assassination or personal abuse, as you do. Nor do I block people or run away because I am losing an argument - If I am wrong I usually say so, apologise, and move on. I think that is the ethically correct response for a scientist

1: You admit CarryAnne harvests citations. And she does this in an extreme way - a long list of claims and citations she is completely unwilling to discuss.

2: I do not know if CarryAnne understands them or not - but her complete unwillingness to discuss her claims does suggest she has no confidence in her claims. This is a problem I find with many anti-fluoride activists who use barrages of citations. They can't discuss them because they have never read them. In many cases, they haven't even read the abstracts.

3: CarryAnne is the one who refused to have a reasonable scientific exchange on her claims. She refused my offer of a good faith, uncensored, exchange along the lines of the one I had with Paul Connett. And she refused to respond by discussing the one citation I did comment on - chosen as an example as one can have a reasonable discussion about one study but not a long list in forums like this. She just opted out saying this was not the place for such a discussion - which underlines that her citation harvesting and presenting a long list of claims had nothing to do with science or discussion, anyway.

4: I have not attacked this woman - I have simply asked for a discussion and pointed out she refused. To the extent she appears to have disappeared from this forum.

Pease, Bill, you need to stop interfering in other's discussions. It is up to CarryAnne whether she interacts with me, whether she takes up my offer of a good faith scientific exchange on even one of the claims she made. You haven't even bothered to enter into that exchange on her behalf - simply attacked me without any basis.

 

If I was CarryAnne I would consider your actions rude, intrusive and sexist. If she has the credibility to list a series of claims and citations then she should have the understanding to represent herself in a good faith scientific exchange. 

Has she asked you to speak for her or have you just rudely pushed in and taken it on yourself?

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Stop fluoridation

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Message 257 of 1,424

Come on Ken.  Do you really want to shoot arrows into people or talk facts?

 

I have read many, many of Carry Anne's posts and indeed she "brings some very good evidence which has not been refuted."   

 

Do you want to go over the list of good evidence?   If I started, you would fail to respond.  Instead you try to do a character assassination.  Be professional.   You can be better than that if you try. . . I've seen you do better.

 

You criticize her for harvesting citations.  Indeed, so does everyone.  Every good researcher relies on other researchers.  You want discussion from her, but you fail to provide discussion on my questions.  

 

Part of the problem both sides have is the many many studies.  Low to moderate quality, but many studies.  For that very reason, fluoridation should stop until we know dosage, exposure, benefit and risks at that exposure.  We don't know what we don't know and should not force medicate when we don't know (or even if we do know.).   

 

I keep asking for your empirical evidence for dosage or even opinion and I have not seen any response for a couple years.  Because no one has that basic information.  Proponents talk about concentration rather than dosage because we don't know dosage.  Dosage has not really been studdied well.  

 

You say she does not understand the citations and this is not a place to discuss them in detail.    How do you know she does not understand?  Are you a mind reader?  Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't, but I know for sure, none of us fully understands all the studies and aspects of administering the fluoride contaminant as a medication/drug with the intent to prevent disease (probably due in part to excess sugar intake) to each person without their consent.  

 

Instead of a personal attack, attack the message with good evidence.

 

After all, it is you who wants to take away my freedom of choice and have me ingest more fluoride.  How do you know I need more fluoride?  You don't even know if I have teeth.  So how much more fluoride should each person ingest, at what stage of life is a benefit, and how much is a risk?  And what are the synergistic chemicals of harm and benefit.   Yes, caries is affected by other elements such as calcium in the water.   Prevention of caries is a complex issue.

 

Stick to facts and quit avoiding and evading responding to me by attacking Carry Anne.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 258 of 1,424

Come on Ken.  Do you really want to shoot arrows into people or talk facts?

 

I have read many, many of Carry Anne's posts and indeed she "brings some very good evidence which has not been refuted."   

 

Do you want to go over the list of good evidence?   If I started, you would fail to respond.  Instead you try to do a character assassination.  Be professional.   You can be better than that if you try. . . I've seen you do better.

 

You criticize her for harvesting citations.  Indeed, so does everyone.  Every good researcher relies on other researchers.  You want discussion from her, but you fail to provide discussion on my questions.  

 

Part of the problem both sides have is the many many studies.  Low to moderate quality, but many studies.  For that very reason, fluoridation should stop until we know dosage, exposure, benefit and risks at that exposure.  We don't know what we don't know and should not force medicate when we don't know (or even if we do know.).   

 

I keep asking for your empirical evidence for dosage or even opinion and I have not seen any response for a couple years.  Because no one has that basic information.  Proponents talk about concentration rather than dosage because we don't know dosage.  Dosage has not really been studdied well.  

 

You say she does not understand the citations and this is not a place to discuss them in detail.    How do you know she does not understand?  Are you a mind reader?  Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't, but I know for sure, none of us fully understands all the studies and aspects of administering the fluoride contaminant as a medication/drug with the intent to prevent disease (probably due in part to excess sugar intake) to each person without their consent.  

 

Instead of a personal attack, attack the message with good evidence.

 

After all, it is you who wants to take away my freedom of choice and have me ingest more fluoride.  How do you know I need more fluoride?  You don't even know if I have teeth.  So how much more fluoride should each person ingest, at what stage of life is a benefit, and how much is a risk?  And what are the synergistic chemicals of harm and benefit.   Yes, caries is affected by other elements such as calcium in the water.   Prevention of caries is a complex issue.

 

Stick to facts and quit avoiding and evading responding to me by attacking Carry Anne.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 259 of 1,424

 you claim Carry Anne " brings some very good evidence which has not been refuted." But this is patently untrue.

What she does is harvest the literature for citations and then throw them out in forums like this. She possibly has not even read the papers cited - but she is certainly unable to discuss them.

After one of these bouts of citation throwing from her, I offered to provide space for her to discuss these in good faith scientific exchange - she refused.

Obviously, this is not the place to discuss in detail the screeds of citations she throws out but I did offer a scientific analysis on one she cited. She then withdrew -claiming this is not the place to discuss science and ran away. We haven't seen her since.

She is typical of a number of anti-fluoride activists who harvest the literature for citations and throw them out without understanding them.

Scientists are aware that all studies have their strengths and weaknesses so we don't simply accept studies (or more naively citations) as "proof" of anything. We analyse the studies intelligently and critically. Extract their positive features and become aware of their negative ones. This leads to a greater understanding of the science.

But scientific understanding is the last thing anti-fluoride trolls want.


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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 260 of 1,424

Randy,

 

Focus on the facts, the science, rather than shooting arrows in other people's backs such as Carry Anne.

 

She brings some very good evidence which has not been refuted.  

 

Focus on facts.  Present your scientific research, prospective randomized controlled trials rather than consensus of those without jurisdiction.

 

For example, Dr. Chuck and I agree the EPA regulates the fluoride contaminant in water.  Do you agree?

 

We agree the CDC promotes increasing the fluoride concentration in public water but does not evaluate the risks.

 

We agree local water purveyors decide whether to fluoridation or not.  

 

Do you know of any water district that has reviewed both sides of the scientific literature by unbiased competent scientists and chosen to add more contaminant to their water?  What scientific evidence do they provide for dosage, efficacy and safety for all individuals?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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