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Frequent Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1 of 1,372

Yes, Ken.  I understand and disagree with your opinion on the Green data.

 

Do you understand my question on total fluoride exposure?  

 

Too many are ingesting too much fluoride.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 2 of 1,372

Ken,

 

You seem to object to the concept of "forced fluoridation" or forced increased exposure to fluoride.

 

If a water purveyor does not fluoridate, a person can ingest fluoride from other sources, such as toothpaste.

 

If a water purveyor fluoridates, a resident cannot avoid the fluoridated water.  Restaurants and food service use the water for food processing, showers, beverages, etc.

 

Certainly you should agree a resident is "forced "to pay for it in their water bill, if they continue to live in that city.  And those chemically sensitive are usually in a low income because their health is compromised and can't afford to move; although, I know of one family who has moved twice.

 

I have not seen your evidence on exposure.  Too many are ingesting too much fluoride even without fluoridation.  Why add more?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

  

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Regular Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Rubbish? Fluoridation in the U.S. is a police action and is indeed forced. The city of San Diego voted twice against fluoridation and yet citizens are forced to accept it and they must pay for it in their municipal supply that is also required to be purchased. 

Even if a city were stupid enough to vote for the fluoridation of peoples' skeletons, then the rest of the city who opposes it are also thus forced to accept the mistakes of others.

The irony is that I guarantee you that if I see kids next door in a nonfluoridated city that I deem should be fluoridated, and I plumb a fluoridation feed system into my neighbor's plumbing against his wishes because I deem that it is "good for his kids", then I would and should br arrested.  But when the city does it to everyone, it is not only allowed, it is a forced, nonDemocratic police action.

A democracy is a system where the majority looks out for the minority, and doesn't trample over it because they "won" an election.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 4 of 1,372

The purpose of this AARP forum is to empower Americans over age 50 to live their best lifes. The purpose of JAMA Pediatrics is to advance the health and well-being of infants, children, and adolescents. 

 

JAMA Pediatrics is the oldest and top ranked pediatric journal in the world. It subjected the MIREC study by Green et al. to extensive scrutiny from expert scientists, including a number who support fluoridation policy. JAMA Pediatrics also subjected this study to two independent statistical analyses - all because the editors wanted to believe the myth of fluoride instead of the science. However, those medical professionals had the integrity to admit that this study is very high quality with sound findings and conclusions that deserve to be published. The editors also noted that science is iterative and consequently changes with new information. 

 

If you want to continue to believe that consuming fluoride provides some dental benefit, this study has no opinion on that.... but even if fluoridation did prevent cavities (the best evidence finds it doesn't, or at least not by much), there is substantial evidence including the evidence in this study that finds fluoridation and low dose exposure to fluoride causes subtle brain damage. Since that brain damage manifests as lowered IQ in the very young, the best modern recommendations are that pregnant women avoid fluoride and fluoridated water during pregnancy. Other studies recommend the same for families with preschoolers because of evidence of unsafe fluoride overdoses from diet. Researchers in fluoride and neurodegenerative diseases like dementia recommend the same thing for seniors

 

Students of statistics and anyone else with time on their hands are welcome to play with the numbers themselves, but, in my opinion, persistent use of this forum in an attempt to deny valid published science based on amateur evaluations of data that differ from the expert analyses  contradicts the purposes of AARP and JAMA Pediatrics. 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 5 of 1,372

Ross, I don't know what your purpose in this discussion is.

The Green et al paper had been discussed extensively here and I have written about it in my article If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help.

I have also written extensively on the Bashash et al and similar studies - here are some articles.

Criticisms of these studies could be made related to methodology (eg you should know the inadequacies of spot urine tests used in these studies if you have truly read the WHO document you refer to. I covered these in my article Anti-fluoridation campaigner, Stan Litras, misrepresents WHO. However, this is hardly worth it because the reported relationships are so weak as to be meaningless. This is the point you should be engaging with - not citing studies without understanding their meaning.


As for calcified tissue adsorbing reactive ions like fluoride, phosphate, citrate, etc. Simple chemistry - not a cause of calcification.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 6 of 1,372

Ross, you still seem to be saying that "reliance on a referendum or poll" to resolve a democratic issue is quaint. That is just silly. And you did use the word "forced."

You use it again saying "referendum forced over 11,000 citizens to receive unmonitored doses of a neurotoxin in their tap water against both their collective and individual consents."

That is absolute rubbish. I live in Hamilton and I have yet to see any evidence anyone being held down and administered with anything, let alone a toxicant. No one is forced.

The great thing about a democratic decision like this is that everyone gets a say. The decision is determined by the majority and the minority still get to do what they want. It's a win-win situation.

All the local anti-fluoride people I have talked to use alternatives - either the publicly supplied non-fluoridated water, a filter or another source. Absolutely no one has been forced to drink anything against their will. I think the people who make such outrageous claims are just upset that they are prevented from intervening in the health of others - paritcualry children who cannto defend themselves and who suffer the most from painful tooth decay.

No, of course, the best treatment is not determined by a vote - it's determined by science and logical thinking. That is why the sensible person voting in such referenda listens to what the real experts say rather than either flipping a coin or listening to the crazy next door neighbor.

You claim "Scotland’s Childsmile programme . . .functions successfully without a fluoridation" but seem oblivious to the fact that an essential component of the programme is regular fluoride varnish treatments for the young children

Elements of the Childsmile programme and similar programmes are also used in New Zealand. Sensible health experts use what works and is appropriate for their situation (Yes, CWF is just not suitable for some situations independently of whether the community desire it or not).

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 7 of 1,372

Ken , you say that my contribution to discussion here relies on activist ideology and unsupported attacks on science.
So if I quote Basic methods for assessment of renal fluoride excretion in community prevention programmes for oral health, World Health Organisation, 2014, where it is stated that ingested fluoride from all sources, whether deliberately or unintentionally ingested, is excreted primarily in the urine. Thus, studies of urinary fluoride levels are ideal for assessing the total intake of fluoride in populations and, more particularly, such studies also provide a basis for decisions on the use of fluoride for caries prevention and that the report also clearly states that public health administrators should assess the total fluoride exposure of a population before introducing any additional fluoridation or supplementation programmes for caries prevention - is that activist ideology and an unsupported attack on science?
And then if I refer to the major National Research Council report Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards (2006) which provides evidence that:
• Endocrine systems and thyroid functions are impaired at exposure levels to fluoride below the consumption levels expected from drinking what is described as optimally fluoridated water,
• kidney patients and diabetics are susceptible subpopulations that are particularly vulnerable to harm from ingested fluorides and that this is relevant to fluoridated water as low as 1ppm concentration, and
• as a calcifying tissue that is exposed to a high volume of blood flow, the pineal gland is a major target for fluoride accumulation in humans with the calcified parts of the pineal gland containing the highest fluoride concentrations in the human body - higher than either bone or teeth and that fluoride is likely to cause decreased melatonin production and to have other effects on normal pineal function, which in turn could contribute to a variety of effects in humans - is that activist ideology and an unsupported attack on science?
Both Bashash et al. Prenatal Fluoride Exposure and Cognitive Outcomes in Children at 4 and 6–12 Years of Age in Mexico and Green et al. Association Between Maternal Fluoride Exposure During Pregnancy and IQ Scores in Offspring in Canada find an association between prenatal exposure to fluoride and cognitive development disorders in children and that these studies’ findings, combined with evidence from existing animal and human studies, reinforce the need for additional research on potential adverse effects of fluoride, particularly in pregnant women and children, and to ensure that the benefits of population-level fluoride supplementation outweigh any potential risks. So if I advocate application of the precautionary principle to public policy is that activist ideology and an unsupported attack on science?
If ever there was a need for the precautionary principle to apply it is now.
That principle states that if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public domain (affecting general health or the environment globally), the action should not be taken in the absence of scientific near-certainty about its safety.
Under these conditions, the burden of proof about absence of harm falls on those proposing an action (like CWF) not those opposing it.
The precautionary principle is intended to deal with uncertainty and risk in cases where the absence of evidence and the incompleteness of scientific knowledge carries potentially serious implications for society. (See: Taleb et al., The Precautionary Principle: Fragility and Black Swans from Policy Actions, University of East Anglia, 2014)

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 8 of 1,372

Ken, just to change your current tack a little, in an earlier posting I did not say that the democratic process is quaint. I was asserting that your reliance on a referendum or poll to resolve a CWF issue as quaint and I did not imply that democratic expressions must be "forced" from people such that you should apply the word ‘obscene’ to my comments.
The real obscenity in your city, Hamilton NZ, was that the outcome of a non-binding referendum forced over 11,000 citizens to receive unmonitored doses of a neurotoxin in their tap water against both their collective and individual consents.
Clear majorities of voters in a referendum should not determine that the rest are forced against their will to take a health-affecting toxin, at any concentration, in their drinking water.
I’m sure, Ken, that if you become ill and attend a medical centre, you don’t revert to asking assembled strangers in the centre’s reception area to vote on suggested treatments for your condition so why should fluoride in community water supplies be any different?
Those who believe in ingested fluoride treatment for dental health care can have it clinically prescribed by a physician so to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number fluoridation should be abandoned world-wide.
You asked me to present evidence that there are viable oral health alternatives to CWF which have been demonstrated in several countries, including New Zealand.
I know you are well aware of Scotland’s Childsmile programme which functions successfully without a fluoridation overlay. There are similar approaches to children’s oral health in parts of the UK and Denmark.
For a New Zealand model I refer to Ellen Clark’s June, 2017, thesis submitted in fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Master of Community Dentistry at the University of Otago, Dunedin, titled ‘Supervised tooth brushing in Northland’ (New Zealand). Northland is not fluoridated.
This thesis was supervised by Associate Professor Lyndie Foster Page and Professor W. Murray Thomson of the Otago dental school.
The results were far better than hoped with children who were brushing teeth at school having a mean number of 11.7 tooth surfaces that improved. In comparison, children not brushing had 8.6 tooth surfaces that deteriorated over the year which was regarded as quite profound.
The author said that the beauty of the study was that it removed the usual inequalities in oral health caused by poverty and that the results had prompted interest from overseas and from district health boards around New Zealand.
The author had expected it would be several years before such significant results were seen.
These results were achieved with brushes and toothpaste, children spitting into towels, rinsing brushes at a water fountain and the cost of a teacher aid for an hour daily.
This low-tech intervention could do the same for New Zealand as whole, at a relatively low cost, compared with the tens of millions of dollars that would be involved in installing infrastructure with legislatively imposed nation-wide CWF which on its own would have little , if any, effect on improving children’s dental health.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 9 of 1,372

Bill, did you read my explanation of the statistical analysis in Green et al's paper? Did you understand it?

Do you agree the observed correlation is extremely flimsy?

Perhaps more could be said about the MUF analysis for boys. The residual plot suggests the assumptions inherent in a linear regression are suspect. The residuals are improved by a log transformation but I think this just adds to my point that this reported association is meaningless.

 

male residuals.jpg

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 10 of 1,372

Ken,

 

Do you know of any human studies on the toxicity of lead which you accept as quality and up to your standards?  Or do you consider lead to be safe to ingest?

 

Is there any study reporting harm to humans of any substance which meets your requirements?

 

And when are you going to respond to the total fluoride exposure excess?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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