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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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But the truth is that It is the Institute of Public Health which published the report 'Inequalities in Health' that actually highlighted the very diffetences in burden of diseases and mortality between Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland.

 

It is the National Cancer Registry of Ireland and Northern Ireland that highlighted the significantly higher incidences of cancer in the Republic, which is fluoridated.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Richard - Regarding Irish health stats, you need to check the official data published by the OECD, EU and the cross-border Institute of Public Health. These indicate better general health in the Republic. Not to mention better oral health.

 

Richard, CarryAnn and other contributors, I am leaving this discussion unless any issues arise re Irish or European research. Nice to chat with you all.

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Regular Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1013 of 1,248

And I'm not willing to toss out the significance of data sets analyzed by Declan Waugh comparing disease incidence in Southern Ireland vs Northern Ireland.

Or the data on hypothyroidism incidence by Peckham.

Or data on ADHD incidence by Malin and Till.

Or data correlating the blood fluoride concentration with degree of IQ lowering.

And it is an absolute certrainty that fluoride accumulates in bone to thousands of ppm, higher than what is in toothpaste, in a nonphysiologic manner where it does not belong, over a chronic period of consumption of about 20 years, all forming bone of poor quality.  

And I stand by my own studies of the effects of fluoridated water on racehorse fatalities in Southern California (Racehorse breakdowns and artificially fluoridated water in Los Angeles, Fluoride 46:170-177, 2013 at:

 https://fluorideinformationaustralia.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/racehorse-breakdowns-and-artificial...

 

.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1014 of 1,248

It's a free country and you can believe what you want. And so can I. I trust the published information I know. Enamel exposed even to 20,000 ppm fluoride does not incorporate fluoride into it. At this level, calcium fluoride globules form on teeth that are readily dissolved with a meal afterward. 

At 0.016 ppm fluoride there is no such precipitation and it is now argued to somehow work by incorporating into dental plaque "to help" toothpaste fluoride (a recent CDC position).

But dentists here request that plaque be removed from teeth regularly. So all the vast literature praising the wonders of fluoride on caries needs to be considered more carefully. There is no actual proof that fluoride has some intrinsic ability to fight caries--other than coating teeth with high levels above the solubility product for calcium phosphate, where  it might act much like a coat of paint would.  But of course 0.016 ppm is far below this level.

The scientific data that is perfectly controlled is with caged mammals where diets were rigorously regulated. Animals given fluoridated water do not have any reduction whatsoever in spontaneous dental caries compared to nonfluoridated water (done in two U.S. labs and one lab in the U.K as reviewed by Yiamouyiannis). These data you can bank on. 

Those who want to fluoridate people though will dismiss this all by arguing that animals are not humans. But I can include it in my analysis because teeth enamel in mammals is similar to that in man.

Many studies claiming benefit report differences that are not outside experimental measruement error, and so many others were not with humans that volunteered to eat exaclty the same foods between fluoride water and no fluoride water groups. It is simply a mess with massive numbers of studies claiming benefit that are not well done. The textbooks by the dentist statistician Sutton are a necessary read for people wanting to see if fluoride added into drinking water can actually affect caries-- It doesn't.  

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Message 1015 of 1,248

Richard - Sorry, but I cannot agree with you. The mechanism for caries prevention is very well understood and the epidemiology around the reduction in decay levels in fluoridated areas is copious. The general health in the Republic of Ireland compares very well with Northern Ireland and with Europe generally. The official comparative data can be accessed on the OECD and EU websites. 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1016 of 1,248

CarryAnn - Thank you for your reply. For the record, I very rarely contribute to online discussions, and I am a public health official making statements that are consistent with WHO and public health bodies generally. I am not sure why that would qualify me as a “troll”! 

 

While I still work as a public health official, I am not directly involved in fluoridation these days. However, I am aware of a lot of work concerning fluoridation and older people within Ireland at present. Perhaps this may be relevant.

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Message 1017 of 1,248

Most all countries of the world reject fluoridation. In India, Dr. Susheela, a scientist who has studeid the effecs of fluoride on the people of India here entire career, cannot believe that the U.S. intentionally adds this non-physiologic substance into water, when India spends vast sums to remove it from contaminated water. In Ireland, the South followed U.S. dentists and fluoridated their country while the North does not. The health disparities between the two countries are atrocious there. Australia fluoridates, and that is about it. Most of Canada is canceling fluoridation and the rest of the world has rejected it.

The reason I mentioned the Teotia study (a 30 year examination) and the  Ziegelbecker and Yiamouyiannis studies is that they are so much more thorough and comprehensive than studies published widely iln dental journals.  Moreoever, there is no mechanism by which fluoride from drinking water can decreases caries in the first place. Fluoride cannot penetrate into the enamel matrix. it is simply too hard and a different structure than the hydroxyapatite in bone which readily accumulates fluoride. The level in saliva from drinking fluoridated water that continuously bathes teeth is only 0.016 ppm (NRC, 2006)  This is 93,750 times less concentrated than fluoride in toothpaste (1,500 ppm).  And the CDC already realizes and published that systemic fluoride does not affect caries. So people are scrambling to invent a new mechanism to explain what they have long accepted, that somehow drinking fluoride in water decereases decay. But it does not, which is consistent with the above facts.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1018 of 1,248

Joe -

 

While I agree your response to me was a more subtle put down, I suggest you read what Chuck, David, Steven & Johnny have been writing about Dr. Bill Osmunson, Dr. Sauerheber, SIRPAC and me since 6/27. Their choice of language is trully abusive. 

 

But yes - I feel and expressed some righteous indignation that the AFS  imported an Irishman to weigh in on this American website whose membership is supposed to be American, not international. I've already had plenty of dealings with abusive trolls from the southern hemisphere on my small town newspaper, but I only found out they weren't local by digging into their online identities - so I now dig into everyone who seems not to belong. Other AARP members might not have been tipped off by the referenc to SCHER and the BDS post-nomial, but I knew it meant you might not be an American. 

 

Joe, read my posts about my experience which has nothing to do with cancer - a distraction from the purpose of this thread which chugged along unmolested for three years with about 60 posts until 6/27. Chuck and David jumped on the passing reference to cancer to derail the conversation, which it has with your help, while he and company denigrate me and belittle my testimony of harm. 

 

For the record: Einstein wasn't hailed as a brilliant hero from the get go. He up ended lots of 'consensus' - which is a political construct without scientific basis. See what a former fluoridationist had to say about so called fluoridation consensus;   

 “I now realize that what my colleagues and I were doing was what the history of science shows all professionals do when their pet theory is confronted by disconcerting new evidence: they bend over backwards to explain away the new evidence. They try very hard to keep their theory intact — especially so if their own professional reputations depend on maintaining that theory.”  - Dr. John Colquhoun BDS, PhD, former Chief Dental Officer of Auckland, New Zealand and leading proponent turned opponent (1998)

 

Speaking about consensus, here are just a few professional American organizations who are on record opposing fluoridation in teh 21st century. I'm sure there are a few in Ireland, too: 

 

  1. IAOMT 2017 Position Paper with 500+ citations AGAINST any fluoride use:  https://iaomt.org/wp-content/uploads/IAOMT-Fluoride-Position-Paper.pdf  

  2. AAEM 2015 cosigner of letter with Erin Brockovich et alhttps://www.aaemonline.org/pdf/LetterIOM_2015.04.27.pdf 

  3. CHEJ 2015 Position of Lois Gibbs, Nobel Prize nominee and environmentalist: http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/gibbs-2015.pdf 

  4. Sierra Club 2008 on damage to environment: http://www.sierraclub.org/policy/policy-fluoride-drinking-water

  5. EWG in 2011 to HHS on evidence of harm: https://www.ewg.org/news/testimony-official-correspondence/proposed-federal-fluoride-cap-too-high   

  6. LULAC 2011 Resolution on Medical Consent & Environmental Justice: http://lulac.org/advocacy/resolutions/2011/resolution_Civil_Rights_Violation_Regarding_Forced_Medica...

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1019 of 1,248

Richard - I don’t work in the area of fluoridation any longer but I did spend the best part of 20 years in this area, particularly in regards to dental public health. I did take the time to read every text I could access which opposed fluoridation because I felt that this public health policy did require justification and needed to be questioned constantly. While I came to disagree with them, I have always recognized that anti-fluoride advocates were utterly sincere in their opposition. What was obvious is that there are an enormous number of relevant studies out there - I think the York Review identified over 3000 as far back as 2000. In such a situation we have to rely on a synthesis of all the evidence by competent experts rather than selecting bits and pieces of individual studies. This has been carried out now on many occasions in many countries. Thus, I accept this consensus.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1020 of 1,248

CarryAnn - that’s a bit abusive isn’t it? You do realize that this discussion is online and can be viewed from anywhere? If you simply resort to insulting people who have a different view to yours it tends to devalue your own arguments.

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