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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1261 of 1,351

Dr. Slott,

 

Yes I agree with you the court dismissed the cases.  However, I think you will agree that the quote I cut and pasted that fluoridation is a medicine, is accurate. 

 

In the USA we call medicines . . . drugs.   The FDA (Food and Drug Administration) has jurisdiction over drugs in the USA and has not approved the ingestion of fluoride with the intent to prevent dental caries. . . no NDA . . . no drug approval process. 

 

Why have proponents never received FDA approval to ingest the fluoride drug?  FDA has rejected approval because the evidence of efficacy is "incomplete."  The FDA calls unapproved drugs "illegal."   

 

When people attack the messenger, it is a loud statement they don't have the evidence to counter the message.

 

Paul Connett PhD is Director of FAN.  I'm too busy treating patients. . . some with dental fluorosis.  I am Board Chair of the organization (AEHSP) over FAN.  If you want to talk about dentistry, fluoride or other issues, I'm with you.  If you want to attack people, I'm not interested. 

 

You asked about the NTP study.  Good question.  Three steps to their review.  The first part of the NTP review was available animal studies.  The result was "moderate" evidence of developmental neurotoxicity from fluoride. 

 

Second, NTP proposed to do research to fill in one or more gaps in the animal research.  The resulting NTP study is the study you are refering to and I will comment on it below.

 

Third part of the report is a review of the human research.  The human research review was to come out late 2017 and did not.  I contacted NTP and was told Spring of 2018.  We are not past Spring and I expect the report anytime.  Why the delay?  The NTP told me that should the human research also show a "moderate" risk, both animal and human moderates would indicate fluoride is designated as a developmental neurotoxicant. 

 

You ask specifically about the animal study NTP did on animals.  The study has serious limitations, in my opinion.  A big one was the choice of animals.  I don't know of any animal more resistant to the effects of fluoride than the one they chose.  The second item I objected to in their study was the age of the animals tested. 

 

Because the testing was for "developmental neurotoxic" effects, it would seem reasonable to test the effects of fluoride when the neurological system was in its most critical developmental phases.  Avoiding giving fluoride to the animals while during the development of the neurologic system would make no sense.   NTP started the study after the animals were weened.  In other words, prenatal and early development of the neurologic system was not included in the study.  Many children get a huge dose of fluoride when fluoridated water is mixed with formula rather than breast fed (mother's milk contains almost no fluoride.) 

 

The study is not without merit, simply has limitations.  In fact, the results help us focus on the possibility of the most harm happening during early exposure, consistent with the Bashash human study and others.  If we are going to test the effect of fluoride on development, the fluoride should be given during development. . . wouldn't you agree?   And because fluoride affects the genetic systems, a good study would start prior to conception and the development of the sperm and egg in dad and mom. 

 

So much to learn about fluoride which science has not even begun to explore.  Sad that tradition forces people to ingest a medicine with so little research which has had mixed results.

 

I do not give my consent to be medicated with fluoridated water.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1262 of 1,351

Gee, Karen.  So now correcting the patently false claims made by you and your New Zealand antifluoridationist counterparts, is somehow “legal doublespeak”??  

 

Because you fail to understand legal rulings which you garble and misrepresent, does not mean that intelligent readers have the same failing.  

 

Now, in regard to the false claims you have posted in this latest comment:

 

1.  There is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any medical contraindication for consuming optimally fluoridated water, and the only thing “ill-advised” associated with fluoridation is according any credence, whatsoever, to the false claims and misinformation put forth by activists such as you who have no regard for truth and accuracy.

 

2.  The “immoral mandate” is that attempted by antifluoridatinsts who seek to impose their decades-old personal ideology onto entire populations, thereby depriving those citizens of the very valuable dental decay prevention benefitting nearly 75% of the United States.

 

3.  Fluoride ions have  always existed in water.  To suddenly proclaim them to be a drug, is obviously ludicrous.

 

4.  There is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any adverse effect of fluoride build up from optimally fluoridated water, or of any harm to anyone, anywhere who “have consumed it for decades”.

 

5.  Aside from the obvious health danger of so doing, your recklessly dispensing medical recommendations to senior citizens when you have no credentials, knowledge  or qualifications to do so could be considered to be practicing medicine without a license, thereby potentially exposing you to criminal prosecution, and liability claims.  That you are doing so is especially egregious and dangerous given the the recommendations you are providing are contradictiry to accepted medical standard of care.  

 

The reality is that there  is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any adverse effect from optimally fluoridated water on senior citizens, or anyone else, “with arthritis, kidney disease, denentia, thyroid, cancer, IBD, etc”.  It is against the standard of care to recommend against consuming fluoridated water.  

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1263 of 1,351
Say America's pediatricians through the American Academy of Pediatrics: "Fluoride plays a very important role in the prevention of dental caries."

"Water fluoridation is a cost-effective means of preventing dental caries, with the lifetime cost per person equaling less than the cost of 1 dental restoration. In short, fluoridated water is the cheapest and most effective way to deliver anticaries benefits to communities."

America's Internal Medicine specialists whose main mission is the medical care for older people agree. The American Academy of Family Physicians did their own systematic review before deciding to advocate for fluoridation.

Physicians are not stupid lemmings. They only wish the best for their patients. If the views in this "discussion" were the truth the physician's support of fluoridation would evaporate.

These arguments well illustrates that fluoridation opponents actually believe that somehow state and federal health agencies, aided by these many expert scientific communities are lying and helping to poison over 2000 million Americans.

This is pure crackpottery.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1264 of 1,351
Appeal and Supreme Courts across the US have ruled that fluoridation is not mass medication, forced or otherwise. Three of the reasons are:
1. No one is forced to consume tap water.
2. Fluoride ions are naturally present in tap water. Fluoridation is the adjustment of a naturally occurring mineral.
3. Fluoride is an approved water additive regulated in the same manner as all the some 45 others.
4. There is no constitutionally guaranteed individual right to choose the chemical composition of tap water.
5. Water providers have a right and obligation to determine the composition of their product within the standards defined by law.

Here are some representative quotes from the Oregon Supreme Court.
BAER v. CITY OF BEND

"the fluoridation measure passes the test of reasonableness."

(fluoridation is) "no more practicing medicine or dentistry or manufacturing, preparing, compounding or selling a drug, than a mother would be who furnishes her children a well-balanced diet."

"But the liberty secured by the Constitution ..does not import an absolute right in each person to be ..wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good."

"Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy."

"Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own regardless of the injury that may be done to others."
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1265 of 1,351

Neither legal doublespeak nor argument over the quality of specific studies has anything to do with the purpose of the AARP forum or this thread. 

 

  1. Fluoridation is medically contraindicated for many, ill advised for others and an immoral medical mandate.
  2. Fluoride is an inflammatory drug that builds up in bodies, brains and bones, making it particularly harmful to Baby Boomers who have consumed it for decades. 

Senior citizens with arthritis, kidney disease, dementia, thyroid disease, cancer, IBD, etc. should not be consuming fluoridated water. Period

 

 P.S. Also immaterial is whether someone is a member of an advocacy group like AFS or an activist group like FAN. Integrity on the other hand is material.
AARP - where do you stand?  

 

 

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Message 1266 of 1,351

Bill, as a point of clarification, while you may claim to be a “former fluoride promoter” at some point in the past,  the fact is that you are the former Director of the New York antifluoridationist faction, FAN.

 

Yes, there were two decisions, by the NZ Supreme Court.  I have, of course, seen both, and understand, as apparently you do not, that both rulings rejected the arguments of the antifluoridationists, and upheld the lower rulings that:

 

1.  The Tanaki Council did, indeed, have the authority to fluoridate its water system,

 

2.  That the fluoridation substances are not medicine under the Medicine Act.  

 

What you have posted here are out-of-context opinions of justices, not their ruling.  You have also conveniently omitted the opinion of the other justice which differred from them.  However, none of them  “confirm” anythng, and are simply opinions expressed to explain their reasoning in reaching a final ruling against the antifluoridationists.  The following is the summary in complete and proper context:

 

“After a series of cases that have been running since 2014, the Supreme Court has released two decisions dismissing New Health New Zealand Inc's various challenges to drinking-water fluoridation.

The Court dealt with the claims in two separate judgments. In the first judgment the Court addressed New Health's challenge to South Taranaki District Council's decision to fluoridate drinking-water supplies in Patea and Waverley. In particular, the Court addressed New Health's claims:

  • That the Council did not have the necessary statutory powers to fluoridate drinking-water supplies
  • That mass water fluoridation breached the right to refuse medical treatment, as set out in section 11 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA).

Although their reasoning sometimes differed, all of the Justices except Elias CJ agreed that the Council did have the necessary statutory powers to fluoridate drinking-water supplies.

On the BORA point, the analysis was complex. William Young J agreed with the Court of Appeal's finding that water fluoridation is not a medical treatment for the purpose of section 11. In contrast, the other Justices found that drinking-water fluoridation is a medical treatment. However, O'Regan and France JJ concluded that, despite engaging section 11: "the provisions authorising the fluoridation of drinking water limit the s 11 right only to an extent that is demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society for the purposes of s 5 of [the BORA]". Glazebrook J also agreed section 11 was engaged, but in contrast, noted that satisfaction of section 5 would depend on local conditions and declined to analyse the point further. Overall, while the Justices were divided in their reasoning, the majority agreed that the appeal must be dismissed. Elias CJ differed, giving a minority judgment which concluded that "an interpretation of the legislation which recognises an implied power to add fluoride to water is inconsistent with s 11 of the [BORA]".

In the second judgment, the Court addressed New Health's challenge to the validity of the Medicines Amendment Regulations 2015, which had declared that fluoridating agents for use in water supply were not medicines for the purposes of the Medicines Act. The Court was united in dismissing this appeal, finding, in essence, that because the Regulations were made for a lawful purpose (clarity) and were prospective in nature, they were valid. The Court also agreed with the Court of Appeal that New Health's other challenges to the Medicines Act were moot, and the appeal was dismissed.”

 

 

Now, with that settled, Bill, do you care to comment on the recently released results of the National Toxicology Program study which you, yourself, instigated, and which your FAN promoted and pledged to closely monitor?  It’s probably no coincidence that FAN has chosen to remain deafeningly silent on these results, given that they reject, in no uncertain terms, the claims of FAN. 

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1267 of 1,351

Dr. Johnson

 

When a person lacks evidence to support a theory, they attack the person and people rather than the issues.

 

Many aspects of dentistry and public health are in the dustbin of history.  Fluoridation will soon be considered on of public health's greatest blunders.

 

When fluoridation first started, public health authorities (Burk et al) assured the public only about 10-15% of the public would get dental fluorosis, a biomarker of too much fluoride.

 

Dental fluorosis increased at the turn of the century to 41% of adolescents with dental fluorosis.  The latest NHANES 2011-2012 dental fluorosis CDC survay released, shows 60% of adolescents with dental fluorosis and 20% with moderate and severe.  Clearly, too many are ingesting too much fluoride.

 

One of the unknowns is, "where is the excess fluoride coming from?"  Water fluoridation and toothpaste do not seem to have increased enough to cause such high rates of dental fluorosis.  Are there synergistic chemicals, other fluoride products or what?  Indeed, HHS recommended reducing the concentration of fluoride in water to 0.7 ppm, but HHS suggests that will represent about a 14% decrease in exposure.  Still too much fluoride ingestion. 

 

Fluoride does not magically go just to the teeth.  Most cells and tissues and organ systems appear to be affected.   

 

First consider dosage.  What fluoride concentration is desireable in the tooth?  How much fluoride does it take to get that concentration? 

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1268 of 1,351

Dr. Slott,

A couple NZ court cases.  The Human Rights case is most interesting and you may have only seen one case.   The court confirmed that adding fluoride to water is compulsory medical treatment without the option to refuse.  May I quote:

 

"[99] Applying this approach, we find that fluoridation of drinking water is the provision of medical treatment.  It involves the provision of a pharmacologically active substance for the purpose of treating those who ingest it for dental decay.  We agree with the Courts below that people who live or work in areas where fluoridation occurs have no practical option but to ingest the fluoride added to the water.  So the treatment is compulsory.  While drinking water from a tap is not an activity that would normally be classified as undergoing medical treatment, we do not consider that ingesting fluoride added to water can be said to be qualitatively different from ingesting a fluoride tablet provided by a health practitioner.
[100] We conclude that fluoridation of drinking water requires those drinking the water to undergo medical treatment in circumstances where they are unable to refuse to do so.  Subject to s 5, therefore, s 11 of the Bill of Rights Act is engaged."

 

In the USA, the FDA has agreed  before Congress fluoride is a drug.  However, they sidestep the issue by claiming the EPA regulates the water.  EPA kicks the jurisdiction back to the FDA saying they are prevented from adding anything to water for the treatment of humans. 

 

The court cases have something for both sides and I'm sure neither side will call these court cases definitive. 

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

A former fluoride promoter

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1269 of 1,351

No, Karen.  The New Zealand Supreme Court did not make any such ruling as you and your New Zealand antifluoridationist counterparts falsely claim.  A court ruling is a final decision on specific claims brought before the court  to be resolved.  The decision dispenses the questions one way or the other, and is enforceable as law.  

 

To what  you and your New Zealand counterparts erroneously  refer as “rulings” are nothing more than the personal opinions of judges on which they base their final consensus ruling, or decision.  In the NZ case, antifluoridationists appealed to the Supreme Court  to overturn a lower court decision which had gone against them.  They based this appeal on 2 points of law.  The final ruling by the Supreme Court was that their points did not have merit, that the  lower court ruling was upheld, and the appeal was dismissed.  

 

No court of last resort has ever ruled in favor of the antifluoridationist nonsense of “forced medication”.

 

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 1270 of 1,351

I do not consent to be forcibly medicated through the water supply with chemicals that are not there to treat the water, but the end consumer. Even if there were any benefit, which I am convinced there is none, who has given anyone the right to forcible feed chemicals down our throats? Also, science is overwhelmingly showing multiple harms due to bioaccumulation of Fluorine compounds in to bodily tissues. The fact that many dentists are supporting such practice is outrageous and surely these dentist are not there to monitor the daily dose. Such dentist have no credibility in my book and I do not consent to any artificially forcefed water fluoridation! What has happened to dental ethics? What kind of “free” nation would engage is such practice? Obviously not free!

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