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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 321 of 1,331

KenP,

 

Your quote:  "That is not true. F is not reported as a component of the scales in this section."

 

Response:  Could you please specify to whom you are addressing and in what context?  My guess is that you are replying to Skanen144 who provided this link https://archive.epa.gov/region03/dclead/web/pdf/91229.pdf

with this comment: 

 

"EPA knows fluoridation chemicals increase lead corrosion. Lead scales formed on lead service lines were mainly compounds of fluoride see pages. C104-111 in an EPA paper is found."  - Skanen144

 

If so, yeah, I looked at that too.   C104-C111 has absolutely nothing to do with water fluoridation.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 322 of 1,331

Dr. Sauerheber, 

 

I take it from your response that you can provide no peer-reviewed studies which demonstrate that teeth with Mild Dental Fluorosis are more subject to decay than teeth without this condition.  This was expected, since Kumar et al. demonstrated that teeth with Mild Dental Fluorosis are healthier and more resistant to decay.

 

As for the rest of your comment, Richard, please.  Your quote:  "Thus (sic.) is nuts. I never labeled any picture of teeth and claimed it was CO brown stain. That condition caused by fluorosis plus high iron occurs in Durango and in Colorado Springs, CO."

 

Response:  Really?  In my discussion of Hardy Limeback's decptive photo on the fluorideaction website, you jumped into the conversation with,

 

"Stained fluorotic teeth are common in areas of Colorado where fluoride is significant in drinking water. The name Colorado brown stain" was given for the affliction in the 1930's. So why is that "deceptive" to give an example of what can commonly happen to flurotic teeth since fluorosis leaves teeth with enamel hypoplasia (thin enamel) that is more subject to staining than normal teeth which do not contian fluoride?"  (Timestamp:  02-14-2019 11:44 PM)

 

You are asking why the photo is deceptive when Colorado Brown Stain is a common condition of flurotic teeth.  If you weren't discussing the Limeback photo, then everything you said in that paragraph is irrelevant and a waste of time.

 

In that same discussion of the deceptive Limeback photo, you also said, "In colorado springs the brown stain was also attributed to iron that gained access to teeth interiors because of fluoride in drinking water. Regardless of the source of fluoride ingestiin during childhood, fluorosis is an undesired abnormality."  (Timestamp:  02-16-2019 11:51 PM)

 

Again, irrelevant and a waste of time if not in reference to the deceptive Limeback photo which appears on the Fluroide Action Network website.  

 

I find it fascinating to have a discussion with someone who treats reality as if it does not exist; as if it were the wind . . not grounded, with no substance, and continually moving from place to place.  Please let me know what, if any, pharmaceutical assistance is making its presence known in this discussion.  I only ask so that I can join you on your phantasmagoric level . . then perhaps we can have meaningful dialogue that makes sense . . at least until the effects wear off.

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 323 of 1,331

Thus is nuts. I never labeled any picture of teeth and claimed it was CO brown stain. That condition caused by fluorosis plus high iron occurs in Durango and in Colorado Springs, CO.

  •  
Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 324 of 1,331

That is not true. F is not reported as a component of the scales in this section.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 325 of 1,331

Richard, your quote:  "I never said if you drink fluoridated water yiu will develop CO brown  stain  It takes high iron ingestion along with fluorosis to develop that. Fluorotic teeth may he subject to a variety of stains depending on where you live and what you consume."

 

Response:  I never claimed you said this.  You say you have a Ph.D.  Surely you can comprehend the meaning of my comment.  We are discussing the deceptive use of a photograph taken by Hardy Limeback.  Please try to stay focused.  

 

I am sorry to have to keep repeating myself, but you seem distracted.  Dr. Limeback's photo of stained teeth, which you have claimed have Colorado Brown Stain, falls into the category of Moderate Dental Fluorosis according to the standard Dean's Index.  

 

Again, Moderate Dental Fluorosis, which is not associated with CWF, is defined as, "All enamel surfaces of the teeth are affected and surfaces subject to attrition show wear. Brown stain is frequently a disfiguring feature."

 

The photo of these teeth which appear in an anti-CWF article by attorney Michael Connett are diagnosed as having Mild Dental Fluorosis.  By implication, the photo suggests that this is what can happen by drinking optimally fluoridated water.  PLEASE NOTE:  You didn't say that.  The photo in that context deceptively implies this.  

 

I find it odd that you would spend roughly one third of your response on Dr. Jay Kumar's peer-reviewed work.  It is not central to the discussion.  Indeed, after citing it I added, "but that is irrelevant to this discussion."

 

Of course you would disagree with Dr. Kumar's peer-reviewed work.  It disagrees with your bias.  If you can show me some peer-reviewed work that demonstrates teeth with Mild Dental fluorosis are more subject to decay, please present it. 

 

But the fact is that teeth with Mild Dental Fluorosis are less resistant to decay than teeth without this condition . . as demonstrated by - well, right here:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19571049

 

Where's your peer-reviewed work demonstrating the contrary?

 

You simply saying something doesn't make it true.  It's like you saying that CWF is responsible for the collapse of the salmon industry in the Sacramento River without  . . . 1.)  knowing background fluoride levels in the river . . . 2.)  checking fluoride levels in the river downstream of effluent discharge . . . 3.) knowing the flow of the river . . . 4.)  knowing the amount of daily effluent discharge . . . 5.)  any examination of any actual dead salmon . . .  6.)   and maybe a real environmentalist who actually agrees with your unique hypothesis.  

 

You seem to have a habit of just saying things with no evidence to support it.  It is interesting that Dr. Bill has compared me to the President.  Maybe he hasn't been reading your non-evidence based comments.  https://www.npr.org/2018/03/15/593844812/trump-admits-to-making-up-trade-deficit-in-talks-with-canad...

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 326 of 1,331

EPA knows fluoridation chemicals increase lead corrosion. Lead scales formed on lead service lines were mainly compounds of fluoride see pages. C104-111 in an EPA paper is found at https://archive.epa.gov/region03/dclead/web/pdf/91229.pdf

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 327 of 1,331

This isn't about teeth. This is about the stupidity of adding small amounts of poison to municipal water that increase the dissolution of other metals into water all of which accumulate in bodies and environment.

 

The fluoride (and other metals associated with fluoridation) that build up in bodies, bones and brains over the years lead to kidney disease, arthritis and dementia in many consumers

 

In the news 16 Feb 2019https://www.ksl.com/article/46492528/sandy-city-delayed-notifying-state-public-of-contamination-wate... 

Excerpts:  Contaminated drinking water sickened a 3-month-old baby and several other people in an area of Sandy where a no-drink order is in place pending lab results on levels of copper and lead.
 
Owens said the impacted area has expanded in size twice since the initial discovery and now includes as many as six schools, care centers and a recreation center. More than 450 households are impacted.
 
... the pump sent undiluted high concentrations of fluoride into the system for about 36 to 48 hours.
 
Nate Roe, the father of 3-month-old Henry, said he talked with multiple city employees by phone after the infant vomited his formula twice on Wednesday. His wife was sick as well, and the water tasted metallic.
 
A city worker visited his home and suggested the problem was a malfunctioning water softener. Roe said he doesn't have a water softener.
 
Workers told him to repeatedly flush his system and call the Utah Poison Control Center to report medical issues, but assured him the water was safe to drink.
 
The [Poison] center, however, could not advise him of what to do unless he knew the level of fluoride exposure. He said the city later told him it was 150 times what it should be.
 
When the city declared the water safe to drink, the Roe family resumed using tap water in their home by Feb. 11. "Then we found out yesterday (Friday) from a news article that there is lead and copper in the water," he said. "It is infuriating. Nobody told us about copper. Nobody told us about lead."
 
A Sandy City mother, who asked for her name to be withheld to protect her 3-year-old daughter's identity, said the girl tested "high" for levels of lead her pediatrician's office and they were referred for a full blood screening at a hospital lab for lead and copper.
 
Dr. Mike Moss, medical director of the Utah Poison Control Center, said multiple calls came after the initial burst of fluoride hit the drinking water system and they are still fielding calls from residents concerned over potential lead or copper exposure.
 
He said a friend and neighbor who is a chemist ran a pH test on the tap water that came back at 3.89, which is extremely acidic.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 328 of 1,331

Nonsense. I never said if you drink fluoridated water yiu will develop CO brown  stain  It takes high iron ingestion along with fluorosis to develop that. Fluorotic teeth may he subject to a variety of stains depending on where you live and what you consume.

Please stop the deceptipn as though fluorosis is,desirable. You quote kumar wjo publishes data that have means that do not differ beyond standard etror and proclaims that a fluorotic tooth is resistant to decay. That is deception

The point of all this is all enamel fluorosis is abnormality. And such teeth can be subject to discoloration depending on where you livev and what you ingest, the severity of the fluorosis etc.

We dont need  a treatise on the subject and instead advocate for no fluiride in rhe diet as much as possible . This means stopping fluoridaton where fluorosis increases in every fluoridated city and there are no exceptions.

Enough said.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 329 of 1,331

Dr. Sauerheber,

 

You are claiming that there is nothing deceptive about this photograph of teeth belonging to someone who has never drank artifically fluoridated water being used as an argument against it.  

 

Ok.  Well that says a lot about your standards regarding the level of deceptiveness you are willing to accept (provided the deceptiveness in question supports your bias).

 

Beyond that obvious deception, these teeth have been diagnosed by attorney Michael Connett as having Mild Dental Fluorosis.  You are telling me that the obvious stains on them are Colorado Brown Stain.  Photographer Limeback said they were orange stains which he believed were iron.  I suppose the color is irrelevant here.

 

But Wait!  There is even more deceptiveness about this photograph.  This article is all about arguing against Community Water Fluoridation (CWF).  And it is true that Very Mild and Mild Dental Fluorosis can be associated with CWF.  (Kumar has demonstrated that these teeth are healthier and more resistant to decay - but that is irrelevant to this discussion.)  So the implication that is being made with this photograph is - this is what happens from drinking water which has been fluoridated to the optimal level. 

 

According to standard and widely accepted Dean's Index used for the diagnosis of Dental Fluorosis --

 

Very Mild Dental Fluorosis is defind as teeth having, "Small, opaque, paper white areas scattered irregularly over the tooth but not involving as much as approximately 25% of the tooth surface. Frequently included in this classification are teeth showing no more than about 1 – 2mm of white opacity at the tip of the summit of the cusps, of the bicuspids or second molars."

 

Nothing about Colorado Brown Stain there.

 

Mild Dental Fluorosis , which is what these teeth are defined as having, is, "The white opaque areas in the enamel of the teeth are more extensive but do involve as much as 50% of the tooth."

 

Hmmm . . Nothing about Colorado Brown Stain there either.  Isn't that interesting.

 

Moderate Dental Fluorosis, which is not associated with CWF, is defined as, "All enamel surfaces of the teeth are affected and surfaces subject to attrition show wear. Brown stain is frequently a disfiguring feature."

 

Colorado Brown Stain, which you seem convinced that these teeth have, is a characteristic of Moderate Dental Fluorosis . . . But these teeth are diagnosed as having Mild Dental Fluorosis - which, again, can be associated with CWF.  

 

This photograph is not an example of what happens from drinking optimally fluoridated water.  This photograph is a lie.

 

Still want to stick with your story that there is nothing deceptive about the use of this photograph as an argument against CWF on a website whose sole motive is to generate fear and paranoia about CWF?

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 330 of 1,331

In colorado springs the brown stain was also attributed to iron that gained access to teeth interiors because of fluoride in drinking water. Regardless of the source of fluoride ingestiin during childhood, fluorosis is an undesired abnormality.

It is,deceptive to claim it is something to be desired to reduce caries, when thinned enamel cannot protect against caries. 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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