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Bronze Conversationalist

Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

“The evidence that fluoride is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming… fluoride may be destroying our bones, our teeth, and our overall health.” - Dr. Hardy Limeback,  former President of Canadian ADA, Head of Preventive Dentistry at Univ of Toronto, 2006 National Research Council Scientist (2007)

 

The 2006 National Research Council on Fluoride in Drinking Water commented to the EPA that fluoridation at 1 ppm can be anticipated to be harmful for those with reduced renal function and the elderly. The NRC confirmed that fluoride not excreted by kidneys builds up in bones, resulting in arthritic pain and increased brittleness. However, there were no EPA studies on the whole health impacts of fluoridated water on susceptible population such as kidney patients, children, those with prolonged disease or the elderly. There still aren’t. 

 

However, there is mounting science from other sources that “optimally fluoridated” water, which is known to cause varying degrees of dental fluorosis in 58% of Black American adolescents and 36% of White American adolescents, is causing subtle deficits in ability to remember or focus. That same “optimal level” has also been proved in a 2014 study as being nephrotoxic in rats with chronic kidney disease. Chronic kidney disease (CKD) affects approximately 15% of Americans, although CKD is quadruple the rate in Black Americans, and predictably worse in older Americans. 

 

Perhaps the most horrifying part of the story of fluoridation is that not only is at least 50% of every drop of fluoride that has passed the lips of a Baby Boomer permanently stored in bones, fluoride isn't the only poison in packages of fluoride that originate as the waste product of aluminum an phosphate industry. 100% of the fluoride sampled in a 2014 study was contaminated with aluminum; arsenic and lead were other common contaminants. In other words, fluoridated water serves as a delivery system for aluminum and lead into our bones and our brains. As we all know, aluminum is associated with Alzheimers in adults, and lead is associated with learning disabilities in children. Approximately 15% of the population who is sensitive to chemicals cite inability to think clearly and overwhelming fatigue as symptoms of exposure to fluoridated water. 

 

Our generation was part of a great human experiment. It may have had noble intentions based on the faulty hypothesis that  drinking fluoridated water prevented cavities. It is now known that any perceived benefits of fluoride are from tooth brushing.  Our grandchildren are the third generation in this travesty. I suggest we all DEMAND the AARP stand up for us and our grandchildren by issuing a strong position paper calling for the cessation of water fluoridation. 

 

SCIENCE REFERENCES

  1. 2014 in Toxicology. Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats. (“Optimal levels” worsen kidney function😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004
     
  2. 2015  in Neurotoxicology and Teratology. Association of lifetime exposure to fluoride and cognitive functions in Chinese children: A pilot study.  (Children with visible dental fluorosis perform less well on memory tasks, correlating with the degree of severity of their fluorosis. One of a series of human and animal studies with the same consistent findings.😞 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25446012  
    2. http://braindrain.dk/2014/12/mottled-fluoride-debate/ 

  3. 2014 in Physiology and Behavior. Fluoride exposure during development affects both cognition and emotion in mice. (Measurable behavioral changes😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24184405

  4. 2014 in International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health. A new perspective on metals and other contaminants in fluoridation chemicals. (All samples of fluoride are contaminated with aluminum, plus other contaminants like arsenic, lead and barium); 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24999851
    2. http://momsagainstfluoridation.org/sites/default/files/Mullenix%202014-2-2.pdf

  5. 2014 in Scientific World Journal. Water Fluoridation: A Critical Review of the Physiological Effects of Ingested Fluoride as a Public Health Intervention. (Health risks and cost don't justify minimal and questionable dental benefit.):  http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

 

RACIAL INEQUITY (FOIA)

Here are three Oct 2014 news articles on the content of the Freedom of Information Act documents. Rev. Andrew Young, former UN ambassador has pursued them with the CDC, but to little effect. Civil Rights leaders have been calling for an end to community water fluoridation (CWF) since 2011. 

 

2015 LEGAL ARGUMENT (GROSS DISPROPORTIONALITY) 

There is a legal initiative in Peel, Ontario (pop 1.3m) to remove fluoride from the water supply based on the principle of gross disproportionality, i.e. marginal benefit does not justify great risk of harm. There is also a political effort afoot in Canadian govt to mandate fluoridation and thereby make the legal argument moot. I suggest this document is well-worth printing.  http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/peel.june2014.pdf

  • a. The first 19 pages of this document is about the legal strategy. It includes summary of US legal cases that found water fluoridation harmful to the public, but legal under US "police power" mandate.
  • b. Starting on page 20 is a devastating affidavit by Dr. Kathleen Thiessen, NAS/NRC scientist and international expert in risk assessment. Very readable summary of science indicating harm to populations in “optimally” fluoridated communities. 

 

POPULATION WITH LOW CHEMICAL THRESHOLD

  1. In excess of 25% of previously healthy Gulf War Veterans have Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, which includes sensitivity to fluoride. See: http://www.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/committee_documents/gwiandhealthofgwveterans_rac-gwvireport_2008.pdf 
    1. EXCERPT: “It is well established that some people are more vulnerable to adverse effects of certain  chemicals than others, due to variability in biological processes that neutralize those chemicals, and clear them from the body.” - Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses 2008 
  2. Affidavit of Dr. Hans Moolenburgh: https://fluorideinformationaustralia.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/affidavit-moolenburgh.pdf
    1. Except: “As a summary of our research, we are now convinced that fluoridation of the water supplies causes a low grade intoxication of the whole population, with only the approximately 5% most sensitive persons showing acute symptoms.The whole population being subjected to low grade poisoning means that their immune systems are constantly overtaxed. With all the other poisonous influences in our environment, this can hasten health calamities.” 
  3. PubMed Listed Studies on immune system response: 
    1. a. Fluoride makes allergies worse, rats (1990): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1707853 
    2. b. Fluoride makes allergies worse, in vitro (1999): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9892783
    3. c. Immune system of the gut (2010): http://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2010/823710/ 
    4. d. ASIA Syndrome, adjuvant impact (2011): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902
    5. e. Gene predicts fluoride sensitivity (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25556215
    6. f.  Brain has an immune system (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26030524

 

AARP - STAND UP on our behalf! 

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"The National Toxicology Program on Wednesday released a draft report linking prenatal and childhood fluoride exposure to reduced IQ in children, after public health officials tried for almost a year to block its publication."Brenda Balletti, PhD, March 16, 2023 

 

“The only reason we were able to get Kumar’s emails is because he’s a government official who is subject to Freedom of Information requests. It raises the question of what else we would learn if the emails of private actors, like the PR strategists who Kumar works with, were also accessible.” - Michael Connett, J.D. in  "Researchers Hid Data Showing Fluoride Lowers Kids’ IQs, Emails Reveal” by Brenda Baletti, Ph.D. (May 30. 2023)

 

It took long enough, what with the political machinations of bad actors, but the final phase of the lawsuit brought by the Food & Water Watch et al. v. EPA for its failure to adhere to the regulations of the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) specific to the evidence of developmental neurotoxicity when exposure is pre- or post-natal even in low doses consistent with 'optimally' fluoridated city water will be heard (barring a government shutdown) between Jan 31-Feb 14, 2024. This is a historic trial because it is the first time that the EPA has been brought to task for failure to protect 'susceptible sub-populations' like infants under TSCA.

 

As previously noted in this thread, the brain damage to infants resulting in cognitive-behavioral deficits like more learning disabilities, lower IQ and behavioral problems is also noted in adults who have consumed fluoridated water for decades, resulting in dementia and other neuro-degenerative conditions. 

 

Additionally, kidney disease, arthritis, degenerative disc disease, brittle bones, etc. are caused by or exasperated by fluoridated water and foods prepared with that water. 

 

However, this month's "Fluoride on Trial" is only looking at the very high quality evidence of brain damage in the very young. For a preview of what is going on, see: 

 

 

Also out this month, a pdf detailing the pattern of fraud at the CDC which  benefits itself and its partners in the fluoride deception:

 

 

For some recent science specific to the health of seniors: 

 

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Your brain doesn’t need fluoride. Your thyroid gland doesn’t need fluoride. Your bones don’t need fluoride. The only part of your body that may benefit from fluoride are your teeth. And you can get the fluoride to your teeth through a very simple, elegant mechanism. You put it in toothpaste, you brush it on and you spit it out.” - Michael Connett, J.D., partner at Waters Kraus & Paul (2024) 

 

 “The controversy about fluoridation was inevitable because fluoridation was, in a real sense, conceived in sin. Fluoride is a major waste product of industry and one of the most devastating pollutants of the aluminum industry. The government not only dismissed the danger and left industry free to pollute, but it has promoted the intentional addition of fluoride - most of which is recycled industrial waste - to the nation’s drinking water.” - Prof. Albert Schatz  (1995)

 

If you or anyone in your family have thyroid or kidney disease, bone spursspondylosis, arthritis or any other bone disease watch this documentary. If you or anyone in your family has cataracts, learning disabilities or a degenerative neurological disease like dementia, watch this documentary. 

 

They knew in the 1940s and 1950s that fluoride caused a range of disease, and they know today. Fluoridation stakeholders who included some criminal medical and legal actors promoted it then, and similarly compromised players promote fluoridation now and for the same reason - it is profitable. Power, prestige and paychecks hinge on fluoridation policy. 

 

WATCH "Fluoride on Trial: The Censored Science on Fluoride and Your Health"

https://live.childrenshealthdefense.org/chd-tv/events/fluoride-on-trial-the-censored-science-on-fluo...

 

MODERN SCIENCEhttps://www.fluoridelawsuit.com/science 

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NTP Scientific Director Tells The Defender What He Couldn’t Tell the Court

EPA Paid Expert Witness $137,000 to Testify in Landmark Fluoride Trial

Fluoride Expert Squares Off Against EPA on Day 1 of Landmark Trial

 

My goodness! It has been an exciting ride. The witness testimony in the #FluorideTrial has ended, but closing arguments will be heard on Tuesday 2/20/2024. 

 

Plaintiff witnesses were wonderful, and were not shaken by EPA Counsel. The Defense witnesses were another matter. 

 

Not only did David Savitz clearly and several times state that neither he nor the NASEM committee he chaired to review the 2019-200 early drafts of the NTP report dispute the NTP conclusions or fault the NTP methods, he articulated that the NASEM group only felt the communication should have been clearer. Right there, that's a big win. But there is more. Savitz: 

  • Admitted he knows little about fluoride science and hadn't read that much
  • Misrepresented the findings of several studies (called out on cross examination as wrong)
  • Claimed there is no sex difference associated with neurotoxins which makes him question those studies (cross examination pointed to toxicology texts confirming sex differences are common; Savitz excused his error by saying he hadn't read them because he is not a toxicologist)
  • Admitted that he pulls in big bucks as an "expert" - including for the Telecom Industry which he repeatedly brought up. His rate is $500 hr and he has earned well over $100k in this trial
  • Recently sat on a panel for Health Canada concerning fluoridation policy with two other paid fluoridation shills. Health Canada apparently had no problems with the obvious conflict of interests 
  • Received multimillion dollar grants from pro-fluoridation sources like NIDCR. 

 

Then there was the officious Brian Barone of the EPA who bored us all to tears with his complicated descriptions of processes. His primary job seems to have been to confuse the judge with meaningless drivel. Barone claimed he: 

 

  • Can't do a scientifically justifiable risk assessment because of all the uncertainty
  • Believes there is "something there" (a neurotoxic effect), but won't determine what it is until there is more precise science for him to begin his calculations
  • Pulled a  couple of "Bill Clintons" when he claimed "Health Protective" can mean different things and retorted to Plaintiff Counsel "depends on how you define 'plausible'" in his defense of a bizarre study that contrary to every other study found that boys drinking fluoridated water have 21 point higher IQs  
  • Judges that the NTP and all the other scientists did things wrong, that as the EPA "Director of Integrity" only he knows the right way to do science
  • Attributes levels of fluoride in the urine of 3rd trimester women living in fluoridated communities as probably largely due to their kidneys being oversaturated with fluoride and therefor unable to process it appropriately. 

 

When Plaintiff Counsel asked Barone if he was "comfortable" with the kidneys of pregnant women being oversaturated with fluoride, Barone gulped and said, "My comfort level is not germane to the issue.

 

Really!!!!! 

 

Liars, sociopaths and criminals! All of them. 

 

Judge Chen is reviewing taped deposition testimony on that bizarre outlier study prior to asking a few more questions of counsel and hearing closing arguments scheduled on Tuesday, Feb 20th. It'll take a couple of weeks to get a ruling, and then there is always the option of appeal. Stay tuned. 

 

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 Dr. Joel Bohemier’s presentation to the Commissioners of Collier County, FL  includes quotes for EPA, CDC and others under oath from TSCA trial depositions. This presentation was part of the Commissioners deliberation that resulted in its unanimous vote to end fluoridation last week: https://unite.live/widgets/4142/recording/player#  

 

It is in the hands of Judge Chen, now, but I've got to say that the closing on Feb. 20th was odd.

 

Not only did Judge Chen pepper both attorneys with questions, the EPA attorneys seemed to admit that fluoride exposure at doses consistent with water concentration of 1.5 ppm, 2 ppm and 4 ppm had been proven to result in lower IQ per studies of mom-child pairs performed in Canadian and other communities across the world. They admitted this despite the official policy of the U.S. EPA stating there is no harm up to 4 ppm (the actionable threshold for remediation) other than mild cosmetic dental fluorosis (tooth staining) at or above 2 ppm. The Canadian government has an actionable threshold of 1.5 ppm which is consistent with the WHO guidelines. 

 

When Judge Chen challenged the EPA that per both plaintiff and defense witnesses, shouldn't there be a protective uncertainty or safety factor of at least ten to protect consumers applied to 2 or 4 which would protect teeth from moderate dental fluorosis which a recent Health Canada is concern at 1.56 ppm and from severe dental fluorosis which the 2006 National Research Council (NRC) said was an adverse health risk at 4 ppm which would also protect brains, EPA Defense attorney said that would be an interesting thought experiment, but Plaintiff attorney didn't argue about dental fluorosis (which by the way is positively associated with lower IQ and learning disabilities) so the judge could not legally do so. Frankly, it almost seemed like the EPA attorneys were threatening the Judge. 

 

Judge Chen pushed back about EPA "Health Protective Assumption" guidelines, but EPA insisted that the Judge must not act based on science or consumer protection, but on strict interpretation of statutory law and the skill of the Plaintiff attorney in proving his case. 

 

On the other hand, Plaintiff attorney was clear that the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) only requires that any specific use of a chemical (fluoridation programs) not pose an "unreasonable risk" to consumers which include susceptible sub-populations like pregnant women and their offspring and bottle-fed babies. All five plaintiff witnesses were quite clear that optimally fluoridated water per CDC guidelines is subtly and permanently damaging the brains of millions of children. Even EPA witnesses and attorneys admitted that there is "something there" in the scientific evidence showing neurotoxic effects at 0.7 ppm, but argued it is not clearly defined enough to identify a "Point of Departure" for the EPA to perform a risk assessment. 

 

Really? 

 

Three Benchmark Dose Analyses which are the gold standard for beginning risk assessments and established uncertainty factors have identified that 0.2 mg/L, which is one tenth of 2 ppm, as harmful. This suggests that no fluoride exposure is safe for baby brains and is a scientifically justifiable Point of Departure in anyone's book.  

 

BMCLBMCL

 

But let's make it even easier for thick-headed fluoridationists to understand: 

  • No amount of fluoride in water or food is safe for pregnant women and their fetuses; bottle-fed infants and young children; the elderly and any in fragile health, such as diabetics or those with thyroid or kidney disease. 

 

 

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Dr. Sauerheber,

 

Your inability to read is manifesting itself again.  Dr. Johnson was referring to a Dr. Limebeck's (a fluoride opponent) paper on microabrasion.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16674673

 

Perhaps you should criticize your fellow anti-fluoridationist who wrote a paper on the subject in the first place.  

 

By the way, you never answered the question.  On this paper you list your affiliation with UCSD.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3690253/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract 

 

UCSD was simply your alma mater.  They did not publish your work and they did not fund your research.  I had asked you if you knew of any other scholar who listed his place of graduation as his affiliated university.

 

For example, Carl Sagan listed Cornell on his work because Cornell published his material and funded his research.  He graduated from the University of Chicago, but we don't see this on any of his work.  

 

So, do you know of any other scholar who deceptively lists his alma mater on scholarly material as though that institution funded & was responsible for the work?

 

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What nonsense. The United States Constitution guarantees rights of free speech to all citizens. Our government is [supposed to be] a government of, by, and for the people. Lay persons in the U.S. are totally enitled to enter into the realm of public policy and to debate health "experts". 

 

And health "'experts" do not exist when it comes to artificial fluoridaiton of people. If they were experts we would not have rampant dental decay, rampant bone pathologies, etc. All people are biochemically very different. Neither the policy of, nor the toxicology of, fluoridation of people is taught in any U.S. or foreign medical school. It is a government policy, mentioned in U.S. dental schools, that was started by misguided dentists who saw a mistaken correlation that also had nothing to do with causation (fluoride in water does not affect dental caries even up to 6 ppm but indeed does cause dental enamel hypoplasia in children).

 

We now know with certainty that fluoridation of the bloodstream has nothing to do with dental caries and is in fact harmful, causing permanent, pathologic accumulation of bone fluoride during lifelong consumption. And infusing chemicals into any public water supply that do not purify (or prevent contamination of) the water is illegal. Ignoring these facts, although this is widespread and very common, is absurd.  

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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  1. If they do not, I recommend that you stop urinating in your bathwater - if it's the chloramines. 

You are telling someone to stop urinating in their bathwater but don’t even know if they do such a thing in the first place. And it is none of anyone’s business in spite of fluoridationists presuming it is, as they do when presuming fluoridation of all people will harm none.

 

  1. Why don't you put calcium & magnesium in your bathwater if you're getting hives and you know this will help?

Of the many students I know, several complained about rashes when showering after silicofluoridation started in their city. One was helped by using a calcium-rich gel quickly after showering. There is no mechanism by which calcium and magnesium could be added to the bathwater in our modern society where water districts determine what water to supply to a home and how it is piped onto one’s property. Construction of a metal-infusing tank for bathwater that is also heated is an expensive proposition and I know of no one ever doing it. And why should this be required when all the city need do is stop purchasing and adding useless fluoridation chemicals that do not sanitize water (and do not prevent corrosion of metals into water) and are thus illegal?

 

  1. You don't drink seawater.  – Irrelevant

It is most certainly relevant. Fluoridation of water supplies is conducted, not to treat human skin, but to be ingested, to elevate fluoride levels in peoples’ bloodstream where it is a contaminant (that fluoridationists argue can somehow by some unknown mechanism affect dental caries). Any rash caused by contact with silicofluoridated water on the skin, after ingestion, can also affect intestinal epithelia. But seawater contains 412 ppm calcium and 1,292 ppm magnesium, both of which minimize fluoride assimilation.  AND sea water is not consumed as a beverage anyway, so any internal effects in artificial fluoride-allergic or sensitive people would not be a concern (fish consumption could also be avoided if it were necessary). But fluoridated water with little calcium ion most certainly is consumed, where fluoridationists demand it be piped into homes as their paid-for source of water for drinking, bathing, cooking, etc., regardless of fluoride sensitivity or whether anyone has kidney or bone disease, or other pathologic issues.

 

And seawater averages 1 ppm fluoride (along with the hghly concentrated divalent metals). That is only 1.4 times the recommended fluoride level of 0.7 ppm. Cities now allow however 1 ppm fluoride because it is dififcult to maintain levels at precisely 0.7, and this is the same as in seawater.  

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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TROLL DEFINITION: In Internet slang, a troll  is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion, often for the troll's amusement.... Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment.

 

ASTROTURFING DEFINITION: Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message or organization (e.g., political, advertising, religious or public relations) to make it appear as though it originates from and is supported by a grassroots participant(s). It is a practice intended to give the statements or organizations credibility by withholding information about the source's financial connection. 

 

I never, ever, ever said I get hives from bathing in fluoridated water. 

 

I got hives primarlly in the early stages of fluoridation poisoing when my city began fluoridation, concurrent with a resurgence of childhood eczema subsequently diagnosed as psoriasis. In my instance, bathing in fluoridated water when I had open lesions was extremely painful. I know others who have problems bathing in fluoridated water even without open lesions. I filter my bathing water to reduce exposure to fluoride and other chemicals and have done so for decades. 

 

Regardless of my personal experiences, the scientific literature documents that the skin conditions are common in those who are intolerant of or who have low tolerance for fluoride. Moreover, since fluroide is an inflammatory drug, it is biologically plausible as well as documented in medical science that fluoride aggravates inflammatory conditions whether it's eczema, irritable bowel disease or arthritis

 

 

 

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Carry Anne, you accused the AARP of Criminal Behavior if they don't submit to your demands.

 

Your quote:  ""Failure of organizations such as AARP, medical associations and the media to condem fluoridation based on their principles and on the evidence presented them is as criminal an act as is the drugging of the population with an enzyme poison and neurotoxin because of politics."

 

Most normal people would consider that "inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community."  That would make you the troll wouldn't it.

 

Under your attack on me, your definition of "Astroturfing," because you would never go off topic, you are accusing me of "masking the sponsors of a message or organization." 

 

I'll tell you right now, that is a slanderous lie against me.  I will accept your apology anytime.

 

I am commenting under this thread because I don't like bullies.  Your "demand" of the AARP, and your accusation of criminal behavior against them is nothing short of extortion. 

 

Moreover, I think it is incredibly dangerous to allow a bunch of self professed experts to hijack a proven health initiative.  "Experts," like yourself, who have graduated from the University of Google, who probably suffer from extreme hypochondria, and definitely paranoia, have no business pushing their way into the domain of health experts and public policy.  

 

  

 

 

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Fluoride is capable of producing any number of symptoms. They include drowsiness, profound desire to sleep, dizziness, nasal congestion, sneezing, runny nose, sore throat, coughing, wheezing (asthma), chest pain, hives, and various intestinal symptoms. Most of the information concerning specific reactions to fluoride, as seen in private practice, never reach publication. - Hobart Feldman, MD, American Board of Allergy and Immunology (1979)

 

Although I have answered every one of the questions posed by DavidF & RandyJ here and elswhere, I have been giving more thought to the specious distraction about seawater and fluoride provoked skin reactions and have expanded my answer to that question: 

 

  1. I don't drink seawater. 

  2. The type of fluoride in seawater is different from the types used to artifically fluoridate community tap water. (Sauerheber 2013)
     
  3. The mineral make up of seawater is quite high. We know that minerals including calcium and magnesium diminish the toxic impact of fluoride. 

  4. The fluoridation chemicals added to municipal water are highly polluted with other substances. (Mullenix 2014

  5. Municipal water typically includes chlorine and often includes ammonia laced chloramine. The toxic impact of fluorides is multiplied when in the presence of chlorine and even more so with chloramine. (Naidenko 2009)

  6. Eczema and other rashes or skin lesions such as stomatitis are an accepted adverse reaction to fluoride that have been noted as such in physician manuals and dental product inserts since at least 1950. Chizzola maculae is a fluoride-specifc autoimmune reaction, a type of hives that some women and children experience in the early stages of fluoride poisoning. I've previously offered a number of citations on these and don't need to repeat them again. 

 

Consequently, attacking any individual who reports any skin condition from fluoridated water which has a totally different composition from seawater by distracting the conversation with comments about the ocean in an attempt to discredit either the science or the individual is a political deception. Insisting that senior citizens with psoriasis or other inflammatory skin conditions bathe in fluoridated water because of dental dogma is sadistic

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Carry Anne,

 

Thank you, for giving the question so much thought. 

 

So that's a "Yes."  You have walked barefoot in the ocean . . And that's a "No."  You didn't get hives on your feet, even though the ocean has twice the level of fluoride as optimally fluoridated water.

 

You bathe in optimally fluoridated water, you get hives.  You walk in the ocean, you don't.  

 

To rationalize this paradox you offer several reasons. 

 

1.)  You don't drink seawater.  -- Irrelevant

 

2.)  The "type" of fluoride is different in seawater.  Hmm, That's odd.  Any high school chemistry student should be able to tell you that a fluoride ion is the same as any other fluoride ion regardless of the source.

 

3.)  "The mineral make up of seawater is quite high. We know that minerals including calcium and magnesium diminish the toxic impact of fluoride."  --  Why don't you put calcium & magnesium in your bathwater if you're getting hives and you know this will help?

 

4.)  "The fluoridation chemicals added to municipal water are highly polluted with other substances."  --  Ah yes, Phillis Mullenix.  This is from the study you cite:  "Metal concentrations were analyzed in three hydrofluorosilicic acid (HFS) and four sodium fluoride (NaF) samples .."  

 

So, what she did was look at a whopping 7 samples total of fluoroscilicic acid & Sodium Fluoride, and I imagine this was supposed to be a comprehensive overview of every batch going into the hundreds of billions of gallons of water flowing throughout U.S. water distribution systems. 

 

What she doesn't tell you, or you could figure it out for yourself, is that any contaminants which may exist in the raw products she tested, already in the parts per million, are diluted down even further when HFS & NaF are added to water at about 2 parts per million.  So, in the end, you have parts per million of parts per million.  The levels of contaminants in her study are so low in drinking water that they are below detection level.  Astronomically lower than EPA guidelines. 

 

Here's the part I like best.  The ocean has far greater levels of every contaminant cited in the Mullenix study than you will find in your drinking water which has been fluoridated to the optimal level.  

 

Are you sure you don't get hives on your feet when you walk on the beach? 

 

5.)  "Municipal water typically includes chlorine and often includes ammonia laced chloramine. The toxic impact of fluorides is multiplied when in the presence of chlorine and even more so with chloramine."

 

It's true, chloramines, which are a combination of organic material and chlorine, does give people hives.  Public pool water, which can be chlorinated as high as 5 - 10 ppm Cl2, can contain very high levels of chloramines.  And low levels of chloramines are used by some cities for water sanitization.  This is because they last longer in the distribution system.  I, personally, disagree with the practice.

 

You may be onto something there.  I don't know enough about it to be sure, but you can easily find out if your city uses chloramines as a tool for water sanitization by asking.  If they do not, I recommend that you stop urinating in your bathwater - if it's the chloramines. 

 

6.)  "Eczema and other rashes or skin lesions such as stomatitis are an accepted adverse reaction to fluoridethat have been noted as such in physician manuals and dental product inserts since at least 1950."  --  Ah yes, Waldbott found cases of this stuff from the 1950s through the 1970s. 

 

Is that what you mean when you say, "there is considerable emerging scientific evidence against fluoridation .?"  Stuff from the 1960s that has never been repeated by anyone?  

 

"I've previously offered a number of citations on these and don't need to repeat them again."  --  And for some odd reason, nobody else can repeat Waldbotts results today either.  

 

Carry Anne also says, "attacking any individual who reports any skin condition from fluoridated water . . . . .  is sadistic."

 

Response:  Of course they are.  And in your mind the AARP is guilty of criminal acts if they don't submit to your demands.  ("Failure of organizations such as AARP, medical associations and the media to condem fluoridation based on their principles and on the evidence presented them is as criminal an act as is the drugging of the population with an enzyme poison and neurotoxin because of politics.")

 

Of course they are, dear.

 

 

 

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CarryAnne – You claim that you, "have answered every one of the questions posed by DavidF & RandyJ here and elswhere", and you "have been giving more thought to the specious distratction about seawater and fluoride provoked skin reactions"

 

If that is your claim, then all you have to do is copy/paste your specific answers (you are a master copy/paste artist) from "here and elsewhere" to the specific questions I just repeated.  Once you do that, I will not be in jeopardy of misinterpreting your comments, and I'll re-ask my other specific questions I have net seen answered.

 

Your Feldman quote pretty much summarizes the anti-fluoride "evidence" as claims based on "information concerning specific reactions to fluoride, as seen in private practice, never reach publication"

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Fluoridation is a medical mandate. Medical mandates are politics pretending to be science. Fluoridation forces contaminated product into the bodies of convenient consumers regardless of adverse individual or environmental impact in order to protect prestige, power and paychecks. The politicized narrative that supports fluoridation policy acts to suppress scientific evidence, silence medical opinions and stifle victim voices.

 

Consensus is not synonomous with majority, despite what those in the majority claim. Consensus is a political construct that means there are no substantial objections to a position. There are not only considerable professional, organizational and public substantial objections to the medical hypothesis of fluoride ingestion using municipal water as an appropriate dental treatment, there is considerable emerging scientific evidence against fluoridation policy that adds to the weight of the evidence that fluoridation damages the health of millions. 

 

Similarly, a simple majority is nothing more than mob rule. The United States is a constitutional federal republic with a Bill of Rights that uses democratic principles which supposedly employs  safeguards to protect minority rights and individual human rights

 

Nevertheless, emerging scientific evidence, evolving medical opinion and voices of victims do not deter astroturfers or fluoride trolls who attempt to use political deceits and misrepresentation of fact in an attempt to intimidate people into ignoring the immorality and harmfulness of fluoridation policy, especially to vulnerable subgroups who include pregnant women & their fetuses, bottle-fed babies and young children, the elderly and those with chronic illness

 

Failure of organizations such as AARP, medical associations and the media to condem fluoridation based on their principles and on the evidence presented them is as criminal an act as is the drugging of the population with an enzyme poison and neurotoxin because of politics. 

 

"Adding fluoride to water to prevent cavities is as nonsensical as putting statins in water to lower cholesterol, Prozac to treat depression, or even aspirin to relieve headaches. Prescribing drugs isn’t one-size-fits-all. Virtually any can have harmful side effects, especially to vulnerable sub-populations like children, pregnant women and those who are medically fragile." - Rick North in "Water Fluoridation is an Emperor Without Clothes" (Lund Report, Sept 4, 2018)

 

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These are good arguments, Carry Anne. 

 

You say, "Failure of organizations such as AARP, medical associations and the media to condem fluoridation based on their principles and on the evidence presented them is as criminal an act as is the drugging of the population with an enzyme poison and neurotoxin because of politics."

 

Wow!  Now in your "Demand" that AARP submit to your wishes, you threaten them with being guilty of "criminal" acts.  This sounds vaguely familiar.  The same tactic was used by anti-fluoride Attorney Robert Reeves in his extortion of the National Kidney Foundation, threatening them with a "Public Relations Disaster," even if they weren't guilty of anything.  

 

"Individual Human Rights."  Good argument.  However, since there has never been one documented case of harm to any person who drinks optimally fluoridated water, no one is ever harmed by drinking it, you are literally arguing for the "right" to have poorer oral health.  That is not rational.  Moreover you are attempting to impose your irrational mindset upon those individuals who could truly benefit from this health initiative.  That's not cool, man.  

 

By the way, you never answered the question.  You said your rashes are inflamed when you bathe in optimally fluoridated water.  The question is, have you ever taken a walk along the beach at the ocean and walked in the water?  

 

Since ocean water has twice the concentration of fluoride as optimally fluoridated water, I'm wondering if your feet broke out in hives if you did.

 

 

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CarryAnne - I am trying very hard to get your specific answers to specific questions precisely so I don’t misrepresent your views and come to a conclusion like “it seems like your personal opinions replace the Scientific Consensus”   That’s how I would interpret your most recent tirade, but since you have not actually answered my questions, I will try again.  I certainly don’t want to misrepresent your opinions.  

 

~> Your continual reference to fluoridation as a “medical mandate” is irrelevant, and your claim that fluoridation is implemented “in order to protect prestige, power and paychecks” is unsupportable and libelous.  I ask you – do you apply this accusation to every member of the organizations worldwide that publically recognize the benefits of community water fluoridation who have not publically disagreed with the consensus?

 

~> You have apparently stated you don’t believe in the concept of a Scientific Consensus as it relates to the safety and effectiveness of fluoridation.  What exactly is your alternative?  It seems from your statement, you believe that anything anyone with any level of training accepts as true is equally legitimate under the law (as long as it agrees with your beliefs), with no group of relevant experts needed to evaluate the evidence for quality, relevance,  accuracy, etc.  – correct me if I am wrong.

 

~>  Who, exactly do you trust to evaluate this “emerging scientific evidence” and determine the “evolving medical opinion”?  So far, as mentioned repeatedly, there have been no recognized science or health organizations that have recommended changing the scientific consensus – or whatever you believe replaces it – based on the most current evidence.

 

~> Do you accept application of Scientific Consensus to the evaluation and acceptability of conclusions in any other field of science or health – Climate change, vaccines, drinking water disinfection, etc.?  If not, what exactly is your alternative?

 

~> Can you explain more clearly your apparent accusations of the ADA, EPA and ATA and their members as “[affected by] financial benefit, ignorant, willful blindness, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths"? (08-22-2018 06:59 AM), (08-19-2018 01:05 PM), (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) & (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) 

 

~> Do you believe those accusations are also accurate descriptions of all members of the 100+ organizations in the world who either publically recognize the benefits of CWF or have not publically spoken out against it?

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The National Kidney Foundation withdrew its support of water fluoridation citing the 2006 National Research Council (NRC) report indicating that all kidney patients, not just those on dialysis, are more susceptible to fluoride’s bone and teeth-damaging effects

.

The kidney-impaired retain more fluoride and risk skeletal fluorosis (an arthritic-type bone disease), fractures and severe enamel fluorosis, which may increase the risk of dental decay, reports the NRC.

 

 

The National Kidney Foundation’s (NKF) former fluoridation position statement also carried surprising cautions.  The NKF advised monitoring children’s fluoride intake along with patients with chronic kidney impairment, those with excessive fluoride intake, and those with prolonged disease.

 

But NKF now admits, "exposure from food and beverages is difficult to monitor, since FDA food labels do not quantify fluoride content."  

 

The NKF’s April 15, 2008 statement goes further: "Individuals with CKD [Chronic Kidney Disease] should be notified of the potential risk of fluoride exposure."

 

"There is consistent evidence that impairment of kidney function results in changes to the way in which fluoride is metabolized and eliminated from the body, resulting in an increased burden of fluoride," concludes Kidney Health Australia. in a paper NKF recommends reading  

 

On June 20, 2008, it was reported that the ADA was forced to finally drop the NKF as a fluoridation supporter

 

However, even the ADA reports in its Fluoridation "Facts" booklet  that "decreased fluoride removal may occur among persons with severely impaired kidney function who may not be on kidney dialysis."

 

Even the CDC has expressed concern about fluoride's adverse effects to those with impaired kidney funciton. http://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/2014/11/cdc-misleads-legislators-about.html

 

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651241, 

 

Just out of curiosity, where exactly do you get your information?  

 

Oh . . wait a minute, I see the link at the bottom of your comment.  "fluoride dangers blog spot."  Got it.  

 

Question:  When exactly did you get your diploma from the University of Google, and what is that worth in the job market?

 

RandyJ, this is the part of Attorney Reeves' letter that I like the best:

 

(paraphrased) 'Even if it is determined that the National Kidney Foundation is not liable or guilty of anything, this could still be a Public Relations disaster for them.'  https://americanfluoridationsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2007-Letter-from-Attorney-Reeves-...

 

That sounds like a threat against innocent people to me.

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Another area for further study is fluoride's effect on KIDNEY, BLADDER, RENAL, PELVIS

LUNG CANCER AND LIVER CANCER.                                                                                   

 

There are many sources of fluoride and increasing the dosage of fluoride for at high risk individuals, makes no sense.

 

 

Kidney & Renal Pelvis Cancer

                                                                                       White (includes Hispanic), Male, All Ages

Comparing the 10 least fluoridated states Incidence Rates 2007-2011 with the 10 most fluoridated states, Kidney Whole Population Fluoridated 2002 CDC and USGS and Renal Pelvis Cancer we do find an increased cancer rate of cancer,  graphed here.   CDC reporting for race is not complete, yet.

Grandjean[1] 2004 reported on an extended followup on cancer morbidity for 422 male workers exposed for at least six months at a cryolite mill in Copenhagen.

Over 90% of the workers have since died. 10 Least 10 Most The authors conclude that “fluoride should Fluoridated States be considered a possible cause of bladder cancer and a contributory cause of primary lung cancer.

Tohyama [2] “The Okinawa Islands located in the southern-most part of Japan were under U.S. administration from 1945 to 1972. During that time, fluoride was added to the drinking water supplies in most regions. The relationship between fluoride concentration in drinking water and uterine cancer mortality rate was studied in 20 municipalities of Okinawa and the data were analyzed using correlation and multivariate statistics. The main findings were as follows. (1) A significant positive correlation was found between fluoride concentration in drinking water and uterine cancer mortality in 20 municipalities (r = 0.626, p < 0.005). (2) Even after adjusting for the potential confounding variables, such as tap water diffusion rate, primary industry population ratio, income gap, stillbirth rate, divorce rate, this association was considerably significant. (3) Furthermore, the time trends in the uterine cancer mortality rate appear to be related to changes in water fluoridation practices.”  The study includes, “"Uterine cancer mortality rate in fluoridated municipalities appears to have declined rapidly subsequent to cessation of fluoridation."

An animal study by Patel (1998)[3] should be considered.   Ranking the states based on fluoridation did not demonstrate greater uterine rates in more highly fluoridated states.

More definitive search of literature will turn up more research on fluoride, renal, pelvis and lung cancer.   A great deal of research uses 18-Fluoride PET/CT for diagnostic imaging purposes.  Almost no research considers potential effects of fluoride increasing cancers in these tissues.  A great deal of money is spent searching for profitable treatments and little for the orphaned concept of prevention.  However, one of the reasons 18-F is used for diagnostic purposes is fluoride caries rapidly throughout the body to all tissues.

 

  1. LIVER CANCERS:

Hepatic Neoplasm: Toft (1988) “CONCLUSION: The feeding of sodium fluoride to B6C3F1

mice in their drinking water for 104 weeks at the stated doses resulted in the formation of an infrequently encountered hepatic neoplasm which, for purposes of this study, was diagnosed as hepatocholangiocarcinoma. ”[1]

Anamika (2012) “From the present findings conclusion can be drawn that sodium fluoride can induce damage to the nucleic acids and protein content in mice liver, which can be effectively reversed by black tea infusion.”[2]

Yiamouyiannis  comments on the NTP rat and mouse studies of the ’80’s.  “The most

significant finding was the occurrence of an extremely rare form of liver cancer, heptocholangiocarcinoma in fluoride-treated male and female mice. . . . Using historical controls and doing a binomial analysis of this, the odds of these results occurring by chance are less than one in two million.  Normally, we consider it significant one in twenty; this is one in two million.”

 

[1] J.D. Toft, II, D.V.M., M.S., Manager, Pathology Section, Battelle Columbus Laboratories. Final Report to National Toxicology Program, October 28, 1988.

[2] Anamika JHA, Komal S, RAMTEJ JV, Effects of Sodium Fluoride on DNA, RNA and Protein Contents in Liver of Mice and Its

Amelioration by  Camellia Sinensis, Acta Poloniae Pharmaceutica - Drug Research, Vol. 69 No. 3 pp. 551-555, 2012

 

[1] Grandjean P, Olsen JH, EXTENDED FOLLOW-UP OF CANCER INCIDENCE IN FLUORIDE-EXPOSED WORKERS,

Fluoride 2004;37(3):231–238 Abstracts 231   http://www.fluorideresearch.org/373/files/FJ2004_v37_n3_p231-238.pdf

[2] Tohyama, Relationship between fluoride concentration in drinking water and mortality rate from uterine cancer in Okinawa prefecture, Japan. J Epidemiol 1997 Sep;7(3):184.  See also J Epidemiol. 1996 Dec;6(4):184-91.

[3]Chinoy NJ, Patel D,  Ameliorative role of amino acids on fluorde-induced alterations in uterine carbohydrate metabolism in mice. Fluoride 1996; 29(4):217-226.

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Another area where research is needed is fluoride and Oral Cancer.

 

  1. ORAL CANCER:

 

Research into the potential contributing factor of fluoride with oral and pharyngeal cancer is minimal.  The thought of our toothpaste or ingested fluoride causing cancer is difficult for dentists to consider.  We are trying to do good, not bad.  The research focuses on using fluoride to reduce dental caries during cancer treatment rather than asking whether the fluoride is increasing cancer risk.

 

Plotting the percentage of the whole population and

oral cancer in the population at large for the 43 reporting states, we again see an increase trend, the higher the percentage of fluoridation, the higher rate of oral cancer.  When consideration is given to the high fluoride concentrations in fluoridated toothpaste and fluoride varnish, the modest concentration of fluoride in water would seem insignificant.  However, the fluoride in water is systemic and represents an additional chronic dosage.  

             

Dentists frequently have office policies to give everyone additional fluoride without diagnosis, irregardless of whether the patient has dental fluorosis, the science, FDA approval, total exposure, or any considerations other than the dental insurance company pays. “Never want to put a rational thought in the way of a lucrative procedure.” 

NTP (1990) “A second potential target site for sodium fluoride when given in drinking water is the upper digestive tract and oral cavity. Squamous cell neoplasms of the oral mucosa (tongue, palate, or gingiva) occurred with marginally increased incidences in dosed males and female rats over the rates in controls. The increased incidences of these neoplasms were not statistically significant when compared with the incidences in concurrent controls; however, the incidences in the high-dose groups were significantly higher than the incidences observed in historical control animals (0.7% male rats; 0.6% female rats).

“As with lesions of the bone, a direct comparison with the historical rates for oral cavity neoplasms is not completely accurate because of the increased attention given to the oral cavity and teeth in the sodium fluoride studies compared to previous NTP studies. Rates for oral cavity neoplasms similar to those observed in high-dose male and female rats in the sodium fluoride studies (4%) have been observed twice for males and once for females in the historical control database of 42 dosed feed or water studies. Neoplasms of the oral cavity were observed in control male and female rats in the current studies; one was observed in an age-matched control male rat and one occurred in a control female rat in the main study.

An argument could be made for combining the male and female rat studies for analysis of oral cavity neoplasms because a marginal increase occurred in both groups. An analysis for significance of the combined P values for the logistic regression trend tests for males and female rats resulted in a nonsignificant P value of 0.065.

“In contrast to osteosarcomas, for which there are no recognized benign or preneoplastic counterparts (Litvinov and Soloviev, 1973), squamous cell hyperplasias of the oral cavity are considered preneoplastic precursor lesions of squammous cell neoplasms of the oral cavity (Brown and Hardisty, 1990). Squamous cell hyperplasia occurred in no more than one animal in any of the dosed or control groups in the current studies. Thus, based on the absence of statistical significance versus the concurrent controls, the occurrence of these tumors in control animals, and the lack of a dose-related increase in non-neoplastic precursor lesions, it is concluded that there is insufficient evidence to relate tumors of the oral cavity with administration of sodium fluoride to male or female rats. Glattre and Wiese (1979) reported an association between a decrease in human mortality due to oral cavity neoplasia and increasing fluoride content in water over the range of 0 to 0.5 ppm.”[1]

Research animals were not given fluoride varnish, fluoride toothpaste, fluoride medical and dental products and these other sources need to be included in research on a possible connection between oral cancer and fluoride.

 

[1] National Toxicology Program [NTP] (1990). Toxicology and Carcinogenesis Studies of Sodium Fluoride in F344/N Rats and B6C3f1 Mice. Technical report Series No. 393. NIH Publ. No 91-2848. National Institute of Environmental Health ...ces, Research Triangle Park, N.C. p. 73-74.

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I would like to post additional research on fluoride's relationship with specific cancers, and then respond to comments.

 

  1. BRAIN CANCER RATES

Fluoride appears to cross the blood brain barrier with similar concentrations as blood.  Hu (1988)[1]  reported controls with a range of 0.14--0.23 ppm fluoride in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and those with fluorosis at 0.10-0.38 ppm fluoride for both blood and CSF.  I was unable to find studies measuring CSF fluoride concentrations for brain cancer patients.   Just because studies have not been published is not proof of safety.

 

The theory of fluoride being involved with brain cancer is plausible.  

 

Ranking the 50 states on the percentage of whole population fluoridated,[2] the trend of increased cancer continues as graphed below, although Blacks appear to take the most significant hit.  It is strange almost no studies look specifically at race and the fluoride cancer connection.   

 

A similar comparison for Black women shows less increase.  Perhaps fluoride affects the male chromosome more than female?

Considering that fluoride exposure has increased significantly in all states, an increase in White male cancer of perhaps 8%-10% and Black male cancer rates of perhaps 13%-15% is reasonably consistent with Burk’s 17%.   

Comparing states based on water fluoridation (NHANES 2011 60% with fluorosis) does not account for other sources of fluoride, age, diagnostic and treatment centers, toothpaste ingestion, whether a person is actually drinking the water and other confounding effects.  The PHS 2015 suggests water fluoridation currently represents perhaps 14% of total fluoride exposure and comparing a 30% fluoridated state with an 80% fluoridated state would represent even less of a difference.   

When we rank the 50 USA states on the percentage of the whole population fluoridated, a slight increase in brain cancer is found for males.[3] (Females did not show an increase)

              Moolenburgh[4] 1994  “Tiel was

fluoridated until late in 1973. After those twenty years the High Court of the Netherlands came to the conclusion that fluoridation of the water          125 supplies had been illegal all that time, and Tiel stopped adding fluoride to the drinking water.

Van den Berg wanted to know if differences in health had occurred between Tiel and

Culemborg (not fluoridated) 20 years after the measure was stopped. She chose the people between 40 and 60 years of age, as these people had drunk fluoridated water from their birth onwards for twenty years. Of course only those people were taken into consideration who had lived in the two cities the whole of their lives (as happens frequently in the Netherlands). There was a surprising 40 and 46% response to the 14,200 enquiry forms that were sent out. 

Here are a couple results:

Brain and Nervous Diseases:             Fluoridated                  Non-fluoridated     Women 51-55 years,  N=146 Tiel 18.6%0%              Culemborg 7.0%        

Cancer:

    Women 56-60 years,           N= 109            Tiel 11.10%                 Culemborg 3.10%

A more than tripling of cancer for women due to water fluoridation seems extreme based on other studies.  The small sample might be a factor along with other confounding factors.  However, the trend is consistent with a fluoride/cancer connection.

Research on the effect of fluoride to brain cancer is beginning.  

 

Altonen (2012)[5]  “We conclude that vanadate- and propranolol-sensitive LPP activity locally guards the signalling pool of LPA whereas the majority of brain LPA phosphatase activity is attributed to LPP-like enzymatic activity which, like LPP activity, is sensitive to AlFx- but resistant to the LPP inhibitors, vanadate and propranolol.”

Altonen (2012) Figure 5

 

“AlFx-(not NaF) generates the LPA1receptor-mediated response; AlFx-also blocks the LPA phosphatase activity. . . Note that NaF partially and AlFx- totally inhibit LPA-derived Pi formation and that DFOM reverses these actions.

 

Xu (2011)[6]The mechanisms underlying fluoride-induced apoptosis in neurons still remain unknown. To investigate apoptosis, caspase-3 activity, and mRNA expression of Fas, Fas-L, and caspases (-3 and -8) induced by fluoride, human neuroblastoma (SH-SY5Y) cells were incubated with 0, 20, 40, and 80 mg/L sodium fluoride (NaF) for 24 h in vitro. The data show that cell viability in the 40 and 80 mg/L fluoride groups were significantly lower than that of the control group. . . The results indicate that fluoride exposure could induce apoptosis in SH-SY5Y cells, and the Fas/Fas-L signaling pathway may play an important role in the process.

 

Although the evidence of fluoride contributing to brain cancer is only a theory still to be investigated, adding the negative effects of fluoride onto cognitive effects certainly warrents further investigation.

 

 

 

[1] Hu Yu-Huan, Wu Si-Shung, Fluoride in cerebrospinal fluid patients with fluorosis. Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry. 1988;51:1591-1593.

[2] http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/nohss/FluoridationV.asp  pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2004/circ1268/htdocs/table05.html and http:// pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2004/circ1268/htdocs/table05.html  CDC for cancer data.  Fluoridation data is used to determine the percentage of the whole population fluoridated in each state for graphs below. 

[3] Data for these graphs was obtained from the CDC fFact sheets on fluoridation and then corrected for “whole population” of each state on public water. As of 4/25/15 this link was good  http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/nohss/FluoridationV.asp www.cdc.gov/cancer/npcr/uscs/pdf/2002_USCS.pdf  2002 cancer statistics still current as of 4/25/15 http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2004/circ1268/htdocs/table05.html  Current 4/25/15 used to determine percentage of population on public water

[4] Moolenburgh, H. MORE NEWS FROM TIEL AND CULEMBORG, Fluoride Vol. 28 No.2 119-122 1995 Letters to the Editor 119 Accessed 4/25/15 http://www.fluorideresearch.org/282/files/FJ1995_v28_n2_p119-122.pdf

[5] Aaltonen N1, Lehtonen M, Varonen K, Goterris GA, Laitinen JT. Lipid phosphate phosphatase inhibitors locally amplify lysophosphatidic acid LPA1 receptor signalling in rat brain cryosections without affecting global LPA degradation. BMC Pharmacol. 2012 Jun 11;12:7. doi: 10.1186/1471-2210-12-7.

[6] Xu B1, Xu Z, Xia T, He P, Gao P, He W, Zhang M, Guo L, Niu Q, Wang A. Effects of the Fas/Fas-L pathway on fluoride-induced apoptosis in SH-SY5Y cells. Environ Toxicol. 2011 Feb;26(1):86-92. doi: 10.1002/tox.20543.

 

 

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651241 - This false claim has already been addressed by David 08-17-2018 09:44 PM.

 

In 2007, an attorney, Robert Reeves, sent the NKF an unconscionable letter threatening lawsuits against the then current and past members of the NKF Board of Directors, both collectively and against their personal assets, as well as against the NKF staff, if NKF did not remove its name from the list of organizations which support fluoridation.  The  NKF is a charitable organization which provides much needed services and activities on behalf of kidney patients.   Rather than waste its limited resources and subjecting its Boards and staff to protracted and expensive litigation fighting an antifluoridationist attorney with nothing to lose,  the NKF prudently decided to simply remove its name from the list.

https://americanfluoridationsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2007-Letter-from-Attorney-Reeves-...


It is important to note that neither the NKF, nor any other credible organization in the world opposes fluoridation, which the NKF would most certainly do if it deemed fluoridation to be any danger to kidney patients.

 

Since Osmunson and CarryAnne are apparently not able or willing to answer the questions I have asked them several times, perhaps you could take a stab at answering a few of them


~> Q1 If the anti-F claims are actually supported by legitimate scientific evidence, why have you and the other fluoridation opponents (FOs) been completely unsuccessful for 70+ years in changing the scientific consensus that CWF is a safe and effective public health initiative? 

 

~> Q2 What is your opinion of the importance of the scientific consensus in making science and health related decisions – both in general and specifically with respect to CWF? 

 

~> Q3 If you don’t accept the scientific consensus as a legitimate representation of the majority position on relevant issues, what is your alternative explanation and terminology?

 

~> Q4 What is your explanation for the fact that virtually all the major science and health organizations continue to publically recognize the benefits of CWF – and their members & representatives have not mutinied?  


~> Q5 Do you accept as true CarryAnne’s representations of the ADA, EPA and ATA and their members as “[affected by] financial benefit, ignorant, willful blindness, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths"? (Demand -08-22-2018 06:59 AM), (D-08-19-2018 01:05 PM), (D-07-25-2018 11:30 PM) & (D-07-25-2018 11:30 PM)  Do you believe those are accurate descriptions of all members of the 100+ organizations in the world who either publically recognize the benefits of CWF or have not publically spoken out against it?


~> Q6 Do you accept as true Dr. Osmunson’s Demand-07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim about the CDC, ADA and AAP, “Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They do not protect the public.  They are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust”? 
If you accept Dr. Osmunson’s explanation, how would his additional claim “Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation”  be even remotely justifiable?


~>  Q7 If the representatives of those health organizations that publically recognize the benefits of fluoridation have not publically denounced CWF, and they have completely ignored &/or misinterpreted the body of evidence you believe proves CWF to be a dangerous practice, and they have followed each other like lemmings, how can any of them possibly be considered the best in their field and experts in any other areas of their practices?


I, for one, find it impossible to imagine that a majority of scientists and health professionals who are committed to carefully evaluating understanding evidence and who are responsible for the health of citizens would ignore or dismiss the accusations of FOs without examining the evidence.

 

~>  Q8 Do you believe Dr. Osmunson’s explanations apply to the other 100+ organizations that do not publically denounce fluoridation and their hundreds of thousands of representatives? These organizations include: The World Health Organization which represents 191 countries, the British Dental Association (around 22,000 members), the British Medical Association (over 156,000 members), the Irish Dental Association (over 1,800 members), the American  Dental Association (over 114,000 members), the American Medical Association (over 200,000 members), the American Academy of Pediatrics (around 64,000 members), the Canadian Dental Association (over 16,000 members), the Canadian Medical Association (80,000 members), The Australian Dental Association (over 11,000 members), the Australian Medical Association (over 28,000 members), the New Zealand Dental Association (2,026 members), and so on… 

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Despite 73 years of water fluoridation, a US study finds Food insecurity linked to poor oral health https://t.co/PoQbKAzDsr

In FiJi, dentists see much less decay in poor children because they eat healthy diets in a more remote Fiji island http://www.fijitimes.com/dentists-discover-tooth-decay-trend/

In the 2004 JADA, it was reported that cavities occur in sixty-percent of U.S. preschool children, and more often in the poorly nourished, Plus federal statistics indicate that poor health is closely associated to bad teeth regardless of fluoridation levels.

About 2/3 of Americans drink fluoridated water. But those skipping breakfast and fruits and vegetables still have more cavities, according to researchers, Dye et al.

Because skipped breakfast is associated with higher caloric intake, poor nutrient intake and obesity, Dye and colleagues used "skipped daily breakfast" as an indicator of poor nutrition along with not eating required 5 fruits and vegetables daily.

Over sixty years ago, dental researcher Weston Price in his book "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" examined various countries' inhabitants and their food choices. He discovered that bad teeth are created by poor diets

In their zeal to promote fluoride, dentistry, ignoring diet, may have helped create a billion-dollar toothpaste industry while enabling an appalling tooth decay national epidemic to fester and grow like the unfilled cavities in Medicaid patients who are often refused dental treatment

In the year 2000, the surgeon general decared tooth decay a national epidemice. Despite millions of dollars poured into fluoridation campaigns, meetings, conferences, etc, the problem persists. In fact, in 2015 Senator Bernie Sanders reported that the dental crisis persists because all Americans don't have access to dental care - https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/dental-crisis-in-america

Americans are fluoride-overdosed and dentist deficient.

Dental care is the largest unmet health need of school age children, according to the American Dental Association (ADA).( "1985 was the year that the ADA stoped funding diet-related caries research, which may reflect a lack of interest but not a lack or an excess of knowledge," according to "Caries Research," (38,S1,04)

Federal statistics support the poor health/more tooth loss association, regardless of fluoridation levels.

Dental crises are occuring in most fluoridated cities http://www.FluorideNews.Blogspot.com

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It seems necessary to discuss what is meant by scientific consensus and better define the difference between "endorsements" and statements of consensual science.

An endorsement is what Tiger Woods might do with respect to some brand of golf-clubs.

Reports of consensual science source are composed by teams of distinguished scientists, panels of experts, who are selected on the basis of their knowledge, professional reputation and experience to look at all facets of scientific issues.  Supported by librarians who collect the pertinent high quality literature, and support staff, the experts debate the evidence and draft a final report and recommendations.   These are large and often expensive undertakings.

Advocacy statements from organizations like the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP), the American Association of Family Practitioners (AAFP) and the British Medical Association (BMA) are founded upon evidence based science and reflect both the specific expertise of the organization's members and the findings of systematic reviews.

These are but three of prestigious organizations of the approximately 150 that the Canadian National Institute of Public Health lists as supporting fluoridation

Water Fluoridation:  An Analysis of the Health Benefits and Risks
Scientific Advisory
Institut national de santé publique
Quebec , June 2007, p 47
http://www.inspq.qc.ca/pdf/publications/705-WaterFluoration.pdf

All science including for example, theoretical physics, molecular biology, climatology and public health rely on such consensus of legitimate experts.   It is the only reasonable choice anyone has.

Systematic Reviews are at the top of evidence-based information hierarchy and are a most useful place to determine what is the consensus of recognized experts

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-traditional-hierarchy-of-evidence-based-medicine-The-higher-...

Harvard science historian Naomi Orestes in a TED talk well explains the fundamental importance of consensus to the scientific endeavor:

http://www.ted.com/talks/naomi_oreskes_why_we_should_believe_in_science#t-29637

With respect to the cancer issue raised, no systematic review has found fluoridation causes cancer.  Many recent systematic reviews could be quoted .  Here's the conclusion from the 2010 European Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks:  "SCHER agrees that epidemiological studies do not indicate a clear link between fluoride in drinking water, and osteosarcoma and cancer in general. There is no evidence from animal studies to support the link, thus fluoride cannot be classified as carcinogenic."

Any single study or series of arguments that may be posted in a public forum like the AARP's are distractions from the real science compared to easily verified expert consensus.

For what it is worth, Hardy Limeback, a dentist like Dr. Osmunson who opposes fluoridation, is unwilling to claim fluoridation is related to cancer.  As you know he was on the National Research Council's Committee on Fluoride in Drinking Water.  Here is Dr. Limeback's statement from a public record submission to the Juneau City Council which was considering fluoridation in 2006.  Dr. Limeback well reflects the complexity of these data and the importance of technical and professional expertise in arriving at consensus.

"I'm not in a position to discuss the cancer data. No one should be critical or supportive of the fluoride and cancer literature without having some experience in epidemiology, toxicology, cancer risk assessment, clinical design and interpretation and years of experience. We had people that fit that description on the NAS committee. If you have any questions about the conclusions of the NAS report, I suggest you contact people who can address your concerns. .."

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Bronze Conversationalist

There is a big difference between causing cancer and potentiating existing cancer. Bone cancer is so rare that proving fluoride causes it or does not cause it in man is very difficult.

On the other hand, the Yiamouyiannis analyses indicate well that in the 1960's when fluoridation began to spread widely across the U.S. that cancer mortality continued to progressively increase in incidence in those cities that began fluoridation, compared to cities that did not fluoridate where cancer mortality rates slowed over the same time periods. These data were heavliy challenged and analyzed in several court cases which concluded that fluoride potentiates most forms of cancer. The mechanism for this may be fluoride interference with immune sytem protection or other possibilities. 

It has been stated here many times by fluoridation promoters that a key reason why fluoridation still remains and is still recommended by the CDC is because there are no successful litigations for harm caused by fluoridation. And yet the conclusions of several courts mentioned above have had no bearing at all on the continuance of fluoridation anyway.

There is also a huge difference between natural fluoride in water that comes from calcium fluoride contamination, versus artificial fluoridation with industrial, calcium-absent, fluoride-containing chemicals that always also contain significant arsenic and lead which are themselves carcinogenic. that add to existing contaminants in a city water supply. 

The notion that fresh drinking water was somehow created as a deficient substance if it did not also contain fluoride is very relevant to fluoridation. Fluoridation promoters have argued often that  somehow drinking water supplies were not created with a proper amount of fluoride in it, so we as humans need to repair the deficient water by adding fluoride into it that is missing. But the functions of water do not include treating dental caries. The functions are to prevent dehydration, to hydrate tissues so that metabolic processes can exist normally, and to maintain normal volumes of blood, interstitial, and intracellular fluid.. Fluoride is not a mineral nutrient and has no physiologic function of any kind in living things including man. Fluoride is not listed as a normal ingredient of the bloodstream, in any clinhicla or nursing text or other source because fluoride does not belong in blood. Again, fluoride is a contaminant of some fresh water supplies, and in blood is a contaminant as well. Fresh drinking water does not require fluoride to be normal. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Fluoridation promoters ignore or deny valid evidence, produced by experts in their fields and respected science groups, showing that fluoridation science has not been settled according to researchers in the Journal of Risk Research, August 2016

 

Further, fluoridationists themselves carry out what they acuse others of doing. They share onl partial, biased information in order to support their case and convey informaton in terms that misrepresent the truth, write researchers, Anat Gesser-Edelsburg, PhD, Head of Health Promotion Department, School of Public Health, University of Haifa, and Dr. Yaffa Shir-Raz 

 

From the beginning, respected US scientists and physicians criticized fluoridation but were ignored (i.e., Waldbott). Voices of opposition were suppressed since the early days, according to Chemical and Engineering News.

 

Criticism persists today, i.e. Legal Scholar Rita Barnett-Rose; Historian Catherine Carstairs, Phd; Social Scientist Brian Martin PhD; investigative reporters in Scientific American, Chemical & Engineering News, Newsweek and ABC-TV.  In fact, US public health bureaucrats ignore their own published evidence of fluoride's potential harm i.e. New York State Department of Health and Virginia Department of Health.

 

Gesser-Edelsburg and Shir-Raz explain that some studies, including recent ones, show no benefit from fluoridation; some even report adverse effects and that those studies were ignored by officials.

 

For example, three expert committees (NRC, SCHER, YORK) revealed "that there is uncertainty surrounding both the safety and the efficacy of fluoridation," they report.

 

They add,  "A Cochrane systematic review (2015) "concluded that there is very little updated and high-quality evidence indicating that fluoridation reduces dental caries, while there is significant association between fluoride levels and dental fluorosis [discolored teeth]."

 

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Bronze Conversationalist

651241,

 

to go through everything you said would take up too much time & space for this thread (Waldbott has already been addressed.  Even he said that he was relying on “clues” for his diagnoses.)

 

Nevertheless, at random, I picked one of your cited comments and took a close look at it.

 

Your comment:  “For example, three expert committees (NRCSCHERYORK) revealed "that there is uncertainty surrounding both the safety and the efficacy of fluoridation," they report.”

 

I took a look at the first link you provided, NRC.  It led me to a webpage on “Fluoridealert,” an organization which is funded by people who benefit from the paranoia they generate (a discussion for another time perhaps – but please, feel free to ask me about it).

 

This is what it says on Fluoridealert:  “The National Research Council’s report concluded that EPA’s safe drinking water standard (4 ppm) for fluoride is unsafe and “should be lowered.” 

 

Response:  That is true, and I would agree with that.  4 ppm also happens to be more than 5 ½ more fluoride than the optimal level of 0.7.  People who fluoridate their water do not put in 4 ppm F. 

 

But you said, “:  “For example, three expert committees (NRCSCHERYORK) revealed "that there is uncertainty surrounding both the safety and the efficacy of fluoridation," they report.”

 

No, NRC didn’t say that.  NRC recommended lowering the EPA MCL from 4 ppm to 2 ppm.  2 ppm is also higher than the optimal level of 0.7 ppm.

 

Also on the Fluoridealert webpage are quotes which appear in the final NRC Report.  Most of them have nothing to do with optimally fluoridated water.  However, one of the tasks of the NRC  was to report on the literature that exists on fluoride in water.  So, when we see quotes like this: 

 

“Fluoride appears to have the potential to initiate or promote cancers, particularly of the bone, but the evidence to date is tentative and mixed (Tables 10-4 and 10-5). As noted above, osteosarcoma is of particular concern as a potential effect of fluoride because of (1) fluoride deposition in bone, (2) the mitogenic effect of fluoride on bone cells, (3) animal results described above, and (4) pre-1993 publication of some positive, as well as negative, epidemiologic reports on associations of fluoride exposure with osteosarcoma risk.“ 

 

It means the NRC is reporting on literature that exists.  Some of it has been debunked.  Nowhere does the NRC say that optimally fluoridated water can lead to cancer, or that there is a risk of getting cancer from it.

 

Quotes like these must be taken in their proper context.

 

My point is, when I see people like you, whether you intended to or not, maybe you were just duped, saying things that are blatantly untrue (“three expert committees (NRCSCHERYORK) revealed "that there is uncertainty surrounding both the safety and the efficacy of fluoridation," they report.”), my initial reaction is that ‘You guys are lying.’

 

And when you say things like, “Fluoridation promoters ignore or deny valid evidence,” my response is that at least people who support the scientific consensus have enough intelligence to rely on informed opinions about random quotes which have been taken out of context by organizations who benefit financially from the paranoia they generate.   

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"The continued increase in fluorosis rates in the U.S. indicates that additional measures need to be implemented to reduce its prevalence.”  - Wiener RC, et al. (2018)

 

“Infants, children and adolescents are at high risk of diseases due to over intake of fluorides, through drinking water and/or fluoridated milk, as the deterioration of health is proportional to the dose and time of exposure... avoid the fluoridation of drinking water and fluoridation of milk in all regions of the country. - Romero et al. (2017)

 

Case Studies (Waldbott, 1998)

 

Patient DiedPatient Died

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Trusted Contributor

CarryAnne – As noted previously, you are demanding that AARP “Take Action” and oppose community water fluoridation (CWF) based on outlier interpretations of the 70+ year body of scientific evidence and your so-called “civil dialogue”.

 

You seem to believe that challenging your outlier conclusions is unacceptable.   

 

My claim is that if fluoridation opponents (FOs) were able to produce legitimate scientific evidence that proved the risks of harm from CWF were greater than the benefits of reducing the risk of dental decay – and known health problems decay can cause – the scientific consensus would change.   That is how science works – no consensus is protected from challenge and possible change.  However, if the consensus were subject to change Demanded by individuals who do not have relevant training and experience (or by a minority of individuals who do have scientific training and experience), or by random change (basically the same thing), science would cease to be an effective tool for understanding the universe or providing safe, effective health care.

 

As with virtually any scientific or health issue with a massive body of evidence (vaccinations – or nearly any other health issue, climate change, evolution, etc.),  it is possible to produce “evidence” and “opinions” that apparently support completely contradictory conclusions.   The fact is that all of these issues are extremely complex and listing “evidence” and “opinions” proves nothing.

 

Individuals and groups that support either conclusion can try to convince members of the public (most of whom do not have the training or experience to actually understand and evaluate the evidence for themselves) by publishing their interpretation of the evidence, or they can provide legitimate evidence that will change the conclusions of their peers – other scientists.  Which method do you believe is an effective method for formulating reliable conclusions?

 

The primary issue, as I see it, is that you and a small minority of FOs with training and experience in relevant areas of science and health (represented by the IAOMT and roughly five other alternate health organizations) have examined the 70+ year body of evidence on fluoridation (thousands of studies and reviews) and concluded that the health risks from CWF are extremely obvious and significantly greater than any benefits. 

 

However, your outlier conclusions are completely contradictory to the scientific consensus reached by a very significant majority of relevant experts worldwide, who have evaluated exactly the same body of evidence, and concluded that CWF is a safe and effective public health measure to protect the health of citizens by reducing the incidence of dental decay and related health problems in optimally fluoridated communities.  That is part of a wider consensus that the benefits of all water treatment processes are significantly greater than any known risks. Those conclusions are also recognized by most relevant science and health experts as a scientific consensus.

 

Actually, challenging the current Scientific Consensus (or Expert Consensus) with new, legitimate evidence is a critical element of the scientific method.  That is how science, in all areas, evolves.  But the challenge requires convincing most experts that the new evidence is legitimate and actually requires the consensus be changed. 

Naomi Oreskes: Why we should trust scientists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxyQNEVOElU
https://vialogue.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/ted-naomi-oreskes-why-we-should-trust-scientists/

 

Trying to change public opinions by presenting opinions, biased interpretations of their carefully selected “evidence”, fabrications and fear-mongering tactics is the only recourse of those who do not have the legitimate scientific evidence to present to the majority of experts and change the consensus.

 

Several Questions about the scientific consensus: 
~> What is your opinion of the importance of the scientific consensus in making science and health related decisions – both in general and specifically with respect to CWF? 

~> If you don’t accept the scientific consensus as a legitimate representation of the majority position on relevant issues, what is your alternative explanation and terminology?

~> What do you accept as the scientific consensus (or majority conclusions) on CWF?
~> If the anti-F claims are actually supported by legitimate scientific evidence, why have FOs been completely unsuccessful for 70+ years in changing the scientific consensus (or majority conclusions) that CWF is a safe and effective public health initiative? 
~> What is your explanation for the fact that virtually all the major science and health organizations continue to publically recognize the benefits of CWF – and their members & representatives have not mutinied?
~> Can you explain more clearly your apparent accusations of the ADA, EPA and ATA and their members as “[affected by] financial benefit, ignorant, willful blindness, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths"? (08-22-2018 06:59 AM), (08-19-2018 01:05 PM), (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) & (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) 

~> Do you believe those are also accurate descriptions of all members of the 100+ organizations in the world who either publically recognize the benefits of CWF or have not publically spoken out against it?
~>  Do you accept as true Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim about the CDC, ADA and AAP, “Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They do not protect the public.  They are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust”? 
If you accept Dr. Osmunson’s explanation, how would his additional claim “Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation”  be even remotely justifiable?
~>  If the representatives of those health organizations that publically recognize the benefits of fluoridation have not publically denounced CWF, and they have completely ignored &/or misinterpreted the body of evidence you believe proves CWF to be a dangerous practice, and they have followed each other like lemmings, how can any of them possibly be considered the best in their field and experts in any other areas of their practices?

~>  Do you believe Dr. Osmunson’s explanations apply to the other 100+ organizations that do not publically denounce fluoridation and their hundreds of thousands of representatives? These organizations include: The World Health Organization which represents 191 countries, the British Dental Association (around 22,000 members), the British Medical Association (over 156,000 members), the Irish Dental Association (over 1,800 members), the American  Dental Association (over 114,000 members), the American Medical Association (over 200,000 members), the American Academy of Pediatrics (around 64,000 members), the Canadian Dental Association (over 16,000 members), the Canadian Medical Association (80,000 members), The Australian Dental Association (over 11,000 members), the Australian Medical Association (over 28,000 members), the New Zealand Dental Association (2,026 members), and so on… 

 

I trust the scientific consensus that fluoridation is a safe and effective public health measure.

 

Randy Johnson

Randy Johnson
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Carry Anne,

 

1.)  Your symptoms have never been diagnosed as being caused from the drinking of optimally fluoridated water.  

 

2.)  You never answered the question.  Have you ever walked along the beach in the ocean (which has twice the level of fluoride as optimally fluoridated water)?  You said bathing in fluoridated water gives you a rash.  Does walking in the ocean?

 

3.)  Ah, you've given me Waldbott.  What took you so long?  These are anecdotal stories from the 1950s through the 1970s.  Blood fluoride levels were never measured.  Fluoride in urine was never measured.  Waldbott himself admitted that he was guessing at the cause of these symptoms.  

 

Is this the "Current Science" that you anti water-fluoride folks are always bragging about that you have on your side?  Got anything from this Century?

 

 

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Bronze Conversationalist

We've already gone over this. Eating and drinking fluoride cannot and does not reduce dental decay (Teotia; Ziegelbecekr; Yamouyiannis;  Sutton) . The levels in saliva bathing teeth (0.016 ppm) are 94,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste.

What I defend pepole for is bone health. Fluoride accumulates in bone during lifelong eating/drinking where it alters the crystal structure of bone. In only 15-20 or so years in a fluoridated city fluoride is in bone at levels above that added into toothpaste, all in bone where it does not belong. Bone is living tissue that is a repository for blood calcium.

I defend people's rights to healthy bone tissue.

Adding fluoride into water that fluoridationists deem is somehow created deficiently is ineffective, harmful, and in violation of Federal water law.

The FDA has never approved of fluoride ingestion and ruled that added fluoride in water is an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug. 

Thank you.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard Sauerheber – What “we’ve already gone over” are examples of your extremely biased and often demonstrably false, unproven (and/or misleading and irrelevant) opinions and speculations of what the body of evidence on fluoridation means.

 

As a perfect example, you just claimed, “Adding fluoride into water that fluoridationists deem is somehow created deficiently is ineffective, harmful, and in violation of Federal water law.  The FDA has never approved of fluoride ingestion and ruled that added fluoride in water is an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug.”  Provide a citation to the specific “Federal water law” you believe fluoridation violates.  Provide a citation to the FDA ruling that community water fluoridation is “uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug.  Explain why, if your claims are valid, the FDA regulates bottled water which can contain the same fluoride levels as found in optimally fluoridated water as a “Food.  Also, what exactly do you mean by “water that fluoridationists deem is somehow created deficiently”. and how that statement is that relevant to anything?

 

Do you reject out-of-hand the references provided that demonstrate a benefit of community water fluoridation (CWF)?

 

Do you reject out-of-hand the scientific consensus that CWF is a safe and effective public health measure?  You certainly have provided no alternative except a non-scientific outlier consensus.

Randy Johnson
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Randy,

Continuing:

 

Chromosomal anomalies and Primary DNA Damage:  Tiwari (2010) “Our study

has supported the role of As [arsenic] and F [fluoride] as potent genotoxic agents, since in vitro exposure of both caused increased chromosomal anomalies along with primary DNA damage, in human peripheral blood cultures.”[1]         

Known Carcinogen: Zhang (2009)   “Twenty four agents were used to evaluate this screening assay. We selected the agents, ranging from DNA alkylating agents, oxidative agent, radiation, DNAcrosslinking agent, nongenotoxic carcinogens, precarcinogenic agents, which included . . . sodium fluoride, acrylamide . . . . The results showed that all 20 tested known carcinogenic and genotoxic agents were able to induce gadd153-Luc expression at a sublethal dose.. . . .”[2]

Known Genotoxic, Mutagenic, Teratogenic:  Ercivas (2009)      “In this study we

concluded that NaF, in 5 and 10 lg/ml NaF concentrations cause genotoxic alterations. So genotoxic, mutagenic and teratogenic effects of NaF need to be carefully screened and evaluated together with other long-term effects using in vitro and in vivo animal test models.”[3]

 Known Genotoxic: Kleinsasser (2001) “For fluoride concentrations of 2 ppm to 35 ppm, non vital cells of less than 10% could be shown. After incubation with 71 ppm and 213 ppm Olaflur, there were 15% and 43% of damaged cells, respectively. Weak genotoxic effects on mucosal cells as well as on lymphocytes could be demonstrated at all concentrations tested. In fluoride concentrations of 213 ppm genotoxicity increased to max.”[4]   

Known DNA Damage: Chen (2000) “To investigate the effects of fluoride on DNA damage

as well as the effects of selenium and zinc against fluoride respectively or jointly in pallium neural cells of rats, single cell gel electrophoresis was used to detect the DNA damage of neural cells prepared in vitro. The results showed that the degree of DNA damage in the fluoride group and the selenium group were significantly greater than that in control group (P < 0.01). The damage in the fluoride group was even more serious. The damage in the fluoride + selenium group and fluoride + zinc group was slighter than that in the fluoride group but with no significant difference. The extent of DNA damage in the fluoride + selenium + zinc group was significantly slighter than that in the fluoride group(P < 0.05). It suggested that fluoride and selenium could induce DNA damage in pallium neural cells of rats respectively.”[5]

Known Genotoxic     Rivedal (2000) ”In the present work, 13 compounds [chlordane, Arochlor 1260, di(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate, 1,1,1-trichloro-2, 2-bis(4-chlorophenyl)ethane, limonene, sodium fluoride, ethionine, o-anisidine, benzoyl peroxide, o-vanadate, phenobarbital, 12-O-tetradecanoylphorbol 13-acetate and clofibrate] have been tested for their ability to induce morphological transformation and affect intercellular communication in Syrian hamster embryo (SHE) cells… In vitro morphological transformation of SHE cells is now one of the most frequently used cell transformation systems. Around 500 chemicals have been tested in this system, and a good correlation has been obtained with the ability of compounds from different chemical groups to cause tumours in animals and humans. The SHE cell transformation assay also responds to tumour promoters and carcinogens not detected by tests for genotoxicity… [N]ine of the 13 tested substances (TPA, o-vanadate, DEPH, phenobarbital, Arochlor 1260, clofibrate, o-anisidine, limonene and NaF) are considered positive for induction of morphological transformation.”[6]

Known Genotoxic:    Mihashi (2000)“Significant increases in the frequencies of chromosome aberrations were induced in a dose- and treatment time-dependent fashion when NaF was administered to [rat vertebral bone] cells at 0.5 and 1.0 mM for 24 and 48 h. The results indicate that NaF is genotoxic to rat vertebrae, providing a possible mechanism for the vertebrae, as a target organ of NaF carcinogenesis.”[7]

Known Genotoxic: Khalil (1995)       “The genotoxic effects of inorganic fluorides were investigated by treating cultured rat bone marrow cells with varying concentrations (0.1-100 microM) of potassium fluoride (KF) and sodium fluoride (NaF) for different durations (12, 24 and 36 h) and measuring the incidence of cells with aberrations and number of breaks per cell. Both forms of fluoride were found to be weak mutagens relative to the positive control N-methyl-N-nitro-N-nitrosoguanidine (MNNG). A specificity of fluoride ion in inducing chromosome aberrations (CA) was indicated by the observation that both NaF and KF behaved almost equivalently in this study and at significantly higher variations from the results with potassium chloride (KCl) and sodium chloride (NaCl).”[8]

Known Mutagen:  Gritsan (1993)      “The testing of hydrogen fluoride (HF) for its mutagenic activity by fumigation of barley seedlings showed that the mutation rate was linear with dose. It was found that the cytogenic effects of gaseous fluoride on grain crops was correlated with the fluoride content in plant tissue.”[9]

Chromosome Aberrations - early cell cycle dependent: Hayashi (1993) “A

significant increase in the incidence of chromosome aberrations was observed only in cultures treated with NaF during early and/or middle S phases of cell cycle. These results suggest that cytotoxicity and clastogenicity of NaF to cultured human diploid fibroblasts are cell cycle dependent, and that the cells in early and middle S phases are more sensitive to the effects.”[10]

Species Dependent  Kishi (1993)     “Conflicting evidence has been reported concerning the mutagenicity of sodium fluoride (NaF), especially clastogenicity at concentrations of more than 1 mM. NaF is known to induce chromosome aberrations at these concentrations in human cells, but not in most rodent cells. We considered that such species-specific difference in chromosomal sensitivity would be derived from the phylogenetic distance between rodents and man. To clarify the role of interspecies differences, we investigated the chromosomal sensitivity to NaF in cell lines from various primates, which diverged into many species, including rodent-like prosimians and human-like great apes. The results showed that the clastogenicity of NaF was limited to human and great ape cells. . . . .”[11]

Induction of mutagenic effects:      “We tested the induction of mutagenic effects by in vivo and in vitro bone marrow micronucleus tests. A significant increase in micronucleated polychromatic erythrocytes was observed 24 H after intraperitoneal injection of sodium fluoride at a dose of 30 mg/kg body weight. In the in vitro micronucleus test, the frequency of micronucleated polychromatic erythrocytes was increased significantly at concentrations of 2 and 4 mM. These results indicate that the micronucleus test may be useful in evaluating the cancer risk of sodium fluoride.”[12]

Induce mutations: “Sodium fluoride was found to induce gene-locus mutations at the thymidine kinase (tk) and hypoxanthine guanine phosphoribosyl transferase (hgprt) loci in human lymphoblastoid cells.”[13]

Aberrations dependent on cell cycle:  Suzuki (1989) “Inducibility of chromosome

aberrations of the cells following treatment with sodium fluoride was also dependent upon the phase of cell cycle.”[14]

Promotes Cancer:     Jones (1988) “Sequential treatment of Syrian hamster embryo (SHE) cells with a chemical carcinogen followed by sodium fluoride (NaF) resulted in a higher yield of morphologically transformed cell colonies than treatment of the cells with carcinogen alone… This enhancement/promotion of cell transformation by NaF was only expressed after the cells had been pretreated with either directacting carcinogens or procarcinogens.”[15]

 

Randy, some more to follow.

[1] Tiwari H, Rao MV. (2010). Curcumin supplementation protects from genotoxic effects of arsenic and fluoride. Food & Chemical Toxicology 48(5):1234-8.

[2] Zhang R, et al. (2009). A stable and sensitive testing system for potential carcinogens based on DNA damage-induced gene expression in human HepG2 cell. Toxicology In Vitro. 23(1):158-65.

[3] Erciyas K, Sarikaya R. (2009). Genotoxic evaluation of sodium fluoride in the Somatic Mutation and Recombination Test (SMART). Food & Chemical Toxicology 47(11):2860-2.

[4] Kleinsasser NH, et al. (2001). [Cytotoxicity and genotoxicity of fluorides in human mucosa and lymphocytes]. Laryngorhinootologie 80(4):187-90.

[5] Chen J, et al. (2000). [Effects of selenium and zinc on the DNA damage caused by fluoride in pallium neural cells of rats]. Wei Sheng Yan Jiu. 29(4):216-7.

[6] Rivedal E, et al. (2000). Morphological transformation and effect on gap junction intercellular communication in Syrian hamste... embryo cells as screening tests for carcinogens devoid of mutagenic activity. Toxicology In Vitro 14(2):185-92.

[7] Mihashi M, Tsutsui T. (1996). Clastogenic activity of sodium fluoride to rat vertebral body-derived cells in culture. Mutation Research 368:7-13.

[8] Khalil AM. (1995). Chromosome aberrations in cultured rat bone marrow cells treated with inorganic fluorides. Mutation Research 343:67-74.

[9] Gritsan, NP. (1993). Cytogenetic effects of gaseous fluorides on grain crops. Fluoride 26: 23-32.

[10] Hayashi N, Tsutsui T. (1993). Cell cycle dependence of cytotoxicity and clastogenicity induced by treatment of synchronized human diploid fibroblasts with sodium fluoride. Mutation Research 290: 293-302.

[11] Kishi K, Ishida T. (1993). Clastogenic activity of sodium fluoride in great ape cells. Mutation Research 301:183-8.

[12] Suzuki Y, Li J, Shimizu H. (1991). Induction of micronuclei by sodium fluoride. Mutation Research 253:278.

[13] Crespi CL, et al. (1990). Sodium fluoride is a less efficient human cell mutagen at low concentrations. Environmental Molecular Mutagenesis 15:71-7.

[14] Suzuki N, Tsutsui T. (1989). [Dependence of lethality and incidence of chromosome aberrations induced by treatment of synchronized human diploid fibroblasts with sodium fluoride on different periods of the cell cycle]. [Article in Japanese] Shigaku. 77(2): 436-47.

[15] Jones CA, et al. (1988). Sodium fluoride promotes morphological transformation of Syrian hamster embryo cells. Carcinogenesis 9: 2279-84.

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