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Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

“The evidence that fluoride is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming… fluoride may be destroying our bones, our teeth, and our overall health.” - Dr. Hardy Limeback,  former President of Canadian ADA, Head of Preventive Dentistry at Univ of Toronto, 2006 National Research Council Scientist (2007)

 

The 2006 National Research Council on Fluoride in Drinking Water commented to the EPA that fluoridation at 1 ppm can be anticipated to be harmful for those with reduced renal function and the elderly. The NRC confirmed that fluoride not excreted by kidneys builds up in bones, resulting in arthritic pain and increased brittleness. However, there were no EPA studies on the whole health impacts of fluoridated water on susceptible population such as kidney patients, children, those with prolonged disease or the elderly. There still aren’t. 

 

However, there is mounting science from other sources that “optimally fluoridated” water, which is known to cause varying degrees of dental fluorosis in 58% of Black American adolescents and 36% of White American adolescents, is causing subtle deficits in ability to remember or focus. That same “optimal level” has also been proved in a 2014 study as being nephrotoxic in rats with chronic kidney disease. Chronic kidney disease (CKD) affects approximately 15% of Americans, although CKD is quadruple the rate in Black Americans, and predictably worse in older Americans. 

 

Perhaps the most horrifying part of the story of fluoridation is that not only is at least 50% of every drop of fluoride that has passed the lips of a Baby Boomer permanently stored in bones, fluoride isn't the only poison in packages of fluoride that originate as the waste product of aluminum an phosphate industry. 100% of the fluoride sampled in a 2014 study was contaminated with aluminum; arsenic and lead were other common contaminants. In other words, fluoridated water serves as a delivery system for aluminum and lead into our bones and our brains. As we all know, aluminum is associated with Alzheimers in adults, and lead is associated with learning disabilities in children. Approximately 15% of the population who is sensitive to chemicals cite inability to think clearly and overwhelming fatigue as symptoms of exposure to fluoridated water. 

 

Our generation was part of a great human experiment. It may have had noble intentions based on the faulty hypothesis that  drinking fluoridated water prevented cavities. It is now known that any perceived benefits of fluoride are from tooth brushing.  Our grandchildren are the third generation in this travesty. I suggest we all DEMAND the AARP stand up for us and our grandchildren by issuing a strong position paper calling for the cessation of water fluoridation. 

 

SCIENCE REFERENCES

  1. 2014 in Toxicology. Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats. (“Optimal levels” worsen kidney function😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004
     
  2. 2015  in Neurotoxicology and Teratology. Association of lifetime exposure to fluoride and cognitive functions in Chinese children: A pilot study.  (Children with visible dental fluorosis perform less well on memory tasks, correlating with the degree of severity of their fluorosis. One of a series of human and animal studies with the same consistent findings.😞 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25446012  
    2. http://braindrain.dk/2014/12/mottled-fluoride-debate/ 

  3. 2014 in Physiology and Behavior. Fluoride exposure during development affects both cognition and emotion in mice. (Measurable behavioral changes😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24184405

  4. 2014 in International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health. A new perspective on metals and other contaminants in fluoridation chemicals. (All samples of fluoride are contaminated with aluminum, plus other contaminants like arsenic, lead and barium); 
    1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24999851
    2. http://momsagainstfluoridation.org/sites/default/files/Mullenix%202014-2-2.pdf

  5. 2014 in Scientific World Journal. Water Fluoridation: A Critical Review of the Physiological Effects of Ingested Fluoride as a Public Health Intervention. (Health risks and cost don't justify minimal and questionable dental benefit.):  http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

 

RACIAL INEQUITY (FOIA)

Here are three Oct 2014 news articles on the content of the Freedom of Information Act documents. Rev. Andrew Young, former UN ambassador has pursued them with the CDC, but to little effect. Civil Rights leaders have been calling for an end to community water fluoridation (CWF) since 2011. 

 

2015 LEGAL ARGUMENT (GROSS DISPROPORTIONALITY) 

There is a legal initiative in Peel, Ontario (pop 1.3m) to remove fluoride from the water supply based on the principle of gross disproportionality, i.e. marginal benefit does not justify great risk of harm. There is also a political effort afoot in Canadian govt to mandate fluoridation and thereby make the legal argument moot. I suggest this document is well-worth printing.  http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/peel.june2014.pdf

  • a. The first 19 pages of this document is about the legal strategy. It includes summary of US legal cases that found water fluoridation harmful to the public, but legal under US "police power" mandate.
  • b. Starting on page 20 is a devastating affidavit by Dr. Kathleen Thiessen, NAS/NRC scientist and international expert in risk assessment. Very readable summary of science indicating harm to populations in “optimally” fluoridated communities. 

 

POPULATION WITH LOW CHEMICAL THRESHOLD

  1. In excess of 25% of previously healthy Gulf War Veterans have Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, which includes sensitivity to fluoride. See: http://www.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/committee_documents/gwiandhealthofgwveterans_rac-gwvireport_2008.pdf 
    1. EXCERPT: “It is well established that some people are more vulnerable to adverse effects of certain  chemicals than others, due to variability in biological processes that neutralize those chemicals, and clear them from the body.” - Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses 2008 
  2. Affidavit of Dr. Hans Moolenburgh: https://fluorideinformationaustralia.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/affidavit-moolenburgh.pdf
    1. Except: “As a summary of our research, we are now convinced that fluoridation of the water supplies causes a low grade intoxication of the whole population, with only the approximately 5% most sensitive persons showing acute symptoms.The whole population being subjected to low grade poisoning means that their immune systems are constantly overtaxed. With all the other poisonous influences in our environment, this can hasten health calamities.” 
  3. PubMed Listed Studies on immune system response: 
    1. a. Fluoride makes allergies worse, rats (1990): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1707853 
    2. b. Fluoride makes allergies worse, in vitro (1999): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9892783
    3. c. Immune system of the gut (2010): http://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2010/823710/ 
    4. d. ASIA Syndrome, adjuvant impact (2011): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902
    5. e. Gene predicts fluoride sensitivity (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25556215
    6. f.  Brain has an immune system (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26030524

 

AARP - STAND UP on our behalf! 

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No, Bill, we do not agree. Please stop this playing.

We are miles apart because you continue to treat the more sophisticated methodology used by Broadbent et al as if it were the far more naive methodology used by the poor quality Chinese studies comparing areas of endemic fluorosis with other areas. Studies the Connett crowd consider as "ideal" (because they fit their biases) yet they have many flaws and should not be used to make the absolute conclusions you do.

The study did not "compare two sources of fluoride."  It investigated a number of possible risk-modifying factors for their influence on IQ at various ages using multiple regression. The two-factor type study you talk about could never have, for example, shown a positive effect of breastfeeding.

You excuse your use of the word "controls" - never used by Broadbent et al and entirely inappropriate for this study - by referring to "most people." You are simply displaying you bais and forced misunderstanding because most sensible people understand statisical analysis would recognise this word is completley inaapropriate.

Again youi dispaly your unwillingess to look at such studies sensibly by refusing to consider that all the objections raised by the Connett crowd were dealt with by Broadbent in their second paper. This showed that whereas they had not considered all other forms of F intake (they did consider some like toothpaste) in their first paper becuase they considered them unlikley to ahve an influence - they did consider them in the second paper and showed they had no influence. (Effectively Hirzy and Connett came to a simiolar ocnclusion, although the data they used was highlky motivated and was not appropriate for New Zealand).

My response to you on "dosage" has been presented several tuimes. I cannot help if your bias prevents you from understanding my response.

The word has no more legitimacy to the discussion of fluoride than it has to the discussion of iodine or selenium intake. Or any other nutrient. Neither of these nutrients should be treated like a highly active drug where intake must be accurately controlled.

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Ken,

 

All the people in the Broadbent study were on extra fluoride.  

 

If everyone in the study is taking fluoride, then detecting an effect from the fluoride is not possible.  

 

And I have failed to see your answers to my questions.  Please post again.  I am busy and don't always read all the posts here, so please also send it to my email at bill@teachingsmiles.com.  

 

And Randy, you want me to take the science to those "experts" who evaluate the science and create the consensus.  Wonderful, please list those individuals or the organizations who create the "consensus."   I've been trying to find them and no one accepts responsibility.   Forward me the names please.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Bill -please support your claim - "All the people in the Broadbent study were on extra fluoride."

As it stands it is simply a declaration - which is ideological/political. It is certainly not a substantiated scientific statement.

You could support your claim in either of two ways:

1: Provide the list of samples with the treatments (actually this should be available but not expected to be published);

2: Cite the infinite confidence intervals that would result if this claim were true.

I have not seen the specific individual data and have no interest in attempting to get it. But I have seen the statistical analysis and the results a quite inconsistent with your claim.

So I can only conclude you have pulled that claim out of thin air, or somewhere else. It is certainly not factual.

I am unaware of questions I have asked you that refer to - except to deal with my comments on the Bashash studies. These were what motivated you to intervene in my discussion with CarryAnne and you seem completely unaware of the problems in those studies, such as the poor nature of the relationship, the lack of any relationship with child urinary F and the need to consider other important risk-modifying factors like maternal prenatal nutrition.

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Ken,

 

If I tell you the data on Broadbent, you will not spend the time to read the study again and evaluate the the flaws.

 

How many cohorts were subjects on fluoridated water?

 

How many were controls?

 

How many of the controls were on fluoride supplements?

 

What was the difference in the polution in the water between the two areas?

 

My point is,

 

Most of the subjects (if they were drinking the public water) were on fluoride supplements dispensed as fluoridation.

 

Most of the controls were on fluoride supplements dispensed as pills/liquid (if they took the pills).

 

The difference in dosage of fluoride between the two groups was too small to detect IQ loss.

 

This is probably the 4th time in the last few years I have repeated that the Broadbent study was incapable of determining IQ loss and is certainly not evidence ingesting fluoride is safe. . . Broadbent compared two sources of fluoride and found both to be about the same.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

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Bronze Conversationalist

What? Fluosilicic acid preparations are not pure. The best grade available commercially I am aware of is only a technical grade. And it cannot be purified more concentrated than a 23% solution because further evaporation emits toxic fumes of hydrofluoric acid..

Of course fertilizer manufacturers don't re-add toxic fluorides back into fertilizer. Industiral fluoride is an enviromental pollutant, Released HF from fertilizer manufacturing is trapped in wet scrubbers to prevent the HF from poisoinng the surroundings.

The fluosilicic acid preparations from China are contaminated with bird droppings from the dead birds that fly over the exposed piles of the material sold to U.S. water districts for their bone fluoridation program as though it is an oral ingestible dental prophylactic (personal communication with the late Jeff Green, fluoride environmental attorney).

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard, I thought from the context I was clearly talking about purity in the sense of heavy metal contaminants. No one considers water a contaminant.

I know this from personal experience having used fluorosilicic acid in my research and being particularly interested in its heavy metal content. I was surprised it was so low - one of the things which made me realise how anti-fluoride activists had been misrepresenting the literature and lying about "toxic cocktails.

Also, Richard, you seem unaware of the situation in NZ I was talking about. Manufacturers will do things like returing the fluorosilicic acid to the fetrtilsier mix in an effort  to produice the best granulation. Obviously, changes in granulation procedure may be the response to current concerns but, as I point out, the production of the pure calcium phosphate fertilisers would be the best approach (but maybe not the most economic).

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Bronze Conversationalist

Mullenix examined in detail three different samples of fluosilicic acid.

The study is published at:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4090869/

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Richard,  

 

Three Whole Samples?  I'm sure that must be representative of the millions of tons produced worldwide.

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And when pray tell did I make such a claim about 3 samples? And 3 is better than none.

The radioactive materials added have toxicity that is more related to how long the exposure is during the life of an individual whose bones can irreversibly trap and hold it.So no one has the right to intentionally add the garbage into peoples' drinking water in the first place..

There are no known MCLs for combinations of all these congtaminants ingestwed at the same timwe. The alloed leverl for arsenic is 15 ppb and for lead is 15 ppb, but these are from studies on the toxic effects (mainly cancer) produced separately when the other is absent. Both arsenic and lead bind protein sulfhydryls and the presence of both together at 15 ppb each has not been evaluated. No studies, don't add anything that contains them both.

And the samples from China I suspect are far more contaminated since China does not fluoridate their own people. They sell their garbage piles to the U.S. water distrricts who willingly do that.it.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Bronze Conversationalist

Richard says, "And when pray tell did I make such a claim about 3 samples? "

 

Um, right here:  "Mullenix examined in detail three different samples of fluosilicic acid."  ‎02-20-2019 02:26 PM

 

Get some sleep, Richard.  This is too easy.  

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Fluoridation is founded on dosage.

 

Hierarchical evidence is a House of Cards.

 

 

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Bronze Conversationalist

Get a grip. No one needs credentials to understand that fluoridation is harmful, useless, illegal, and immoral. 

A most important Christian teaching is that God is so magnanimous to man that humans are given a free will. Fluoridation takes away one's free will to drink fresh God given drinking water because water that is provided in a home by a city must be consumed to remain hydrated and living. When fluoride comes with it, it is unavoidable and free will disappears.

Fluoridation alters the chemical composition of every person's body who consumes it and alters the crystal structure of bone which weakens bone (See U.S. CDC ATSDR 2003). Even CDC scientists know this while the CDC endorses fluoridation and takes away rights of people who are supposed to have a free will.

What credentials are needed to understand this?

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Oh course, if KenP had looked at the history of this thread beginning in Feb 2015, he would see I posted considerable scientific studies with discussion and that approximately 20+ seniors amiably joined in over a period of 3 years. That ended in June 2018 when the fluoride trolls descended en masse.

 

Regardless of the opinion of a retired agricultural chemist from New Zealand whose job was to develop fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides, the epidimiologists, neuroscientists, and other scientists who published or read the recent peer-reviewed and high-quality studies listed as medical science rather than agricultural science are very alarmed about the implications relevant to fluoridation policy.  I have read them in full. 

 

THYROID: 18% of people drinking 'optimally' fluoridated water in Canadian communities have a heightened risk of low thyroid function because fluoride interferes with iodine metabolism. Many of them will be sub-clinical and not know they are mildly hypothyroid, which nevertheless increases their risk for diabetes, high cholesterol, and other problems. Study excluded those already diagnosed with thyroid disease.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041201830833X

  • Ashley J. Malin, Julia Riddell, Hugh McCague, Christine Till. Fluoride exposure and thyroid function among adults living in Canada: Effect modification by iodine status. Environment International. Volume 121, Part 1, December 2018, Pages 667-674.

 

PREGNANT WOMEN: Pregnant Canadian women drinking  'optimally' fluoridated water had twice the fluoride exposure per individual testing as compared to pregnant women in non-fluoridated Canadian communities - and consistent with the range in the Mexican women whose children had up to 6 points lowered IQ based on prenatal exposure to fluoride (from salt). Excluded those with health conditions such as kidney disease as well as considered confounding factors such as tea consumption. 
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/EHP3546
 

  • Christine Till, Rivka Green, John G. Grundy, Richard Hornung, Raichel Neufeld, E. Angeles Martinez-Mier, Pierre Ayotte, Gina Muckle, and Bruce Lanphear. Community Water Fluoridation and Urinary Fluoride Concentrations in a National Sample of Pregnant Women in Canada. Environmental Health Perspectives. October 2018. 

 

LEARNING DISABILITIES: Over 200 children were individually tested. Study found attention deficit disorder apparently caused by their prenatal exposure to fluoride specific to dose. This is the 3rd report out of the NIH sponsored 12 year study that seems to have been designed with the intention of showing no ill effect, but instead has three times confirmed low dose prenatal exposure to fluoride consistent with exposure in 'optimally' fluoridated communities causes subtle but permanent brain damage for many consumers.  Excluded those with history of mental illness or conditions such as diabetes and renal disease.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018311814

  • Morteza Bashash, Maelle Marchand, Howard Hu, ChristineTill,  Angeles Martinez-Mier, Brisa N. Sanchez, Niladri Basu, Karen Peterson, Rivka Green, Lourdes Schnaas, Adriana Mercado-García, Mauricio Hernández-Avila, Martha María Téllez-Rojo. Prenatal fluoride exposure and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in children at 6–12 years of age in Mexico City. Environment International. Volume 121, Part 1, December 2018, Pages 658-666.

 

OVERDOSED BABIES: Over one third of babies (37%) in fluoridated American communities consume amounts of fluoride in excess of the upper limits of fluoride considered safe per government regulations. Even 4% of babies in non-fluoridated communities are overdosed on fluoride due to consumption of products made with fluoridated water. At the very least, this puts these children at high risk for developing dental fluorosis, which is associated with increased incidence of learning disabilities, broken bones and kidney disease.
http://jocpd.org/doi/10.17796/1053-4625-43.1.7
 

  • Claudia X Harriehausen, Fehmida Z Dosani, Brett T Chiquet, Michelle S Barratt, and Ryan L Quock. Fluoride Intake of Infants from Formula. Journal of Clinical Pediatric Dentistry. 2018.

 

GOVERNMENT BIAS: A National Toxicology Program animal experiment studying the impact of fluoride consumption used the wrong rats, the wrong dose, and the wrong study design in order to manufacture a finding of no prenatal or postnatal effect.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987718308600

  • Karen Favazza Spencer, Hardy Limeback. Blood is Thicker Than Water: Flaws in a National Toxicology Program Study. Medical Hypotheses. Volume 121. December 2018. Pages 160-163.

 

SKELETAL MUSCLE DISEASE: Doses consistent with doses in the general population of optimally fluoridated communities can cause an autoimmune response and cell inflammation that results in either skeletal muscle enlargement or wasting.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749118325673  

  • P. Sudheer Shenoya, Utsav Sena, Saketh Kapoor, Anu  V. Ranade, Chitta R.Chowdhury, Bipasha Bose. Sodium fluoride induced skeletal muscle changes: Degradation of proteins and signaling mechanism. Environmental Pollution. 2018.

 

ADULT BRAINS: First long term NaF animal study (10 weeks) using moderate levels of fluoride finds a number of histological changes including in parts of the brain associated with memory and learning.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518317508  

  • Pei Jiang, Gongying Li, Xueyuan Zhou, Changshui Wang, Yi Qiao, Dehua Liao, Dongmei Shi. Chronic fluoride exposure induces neuronal apoptosis and impairs neurogenesis and synaptic plasticity: Role of GSK-3b/b-catenin pathway.Chemosphere. Volume 214, January 2019, Pages 430-435.

 

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE: Describes impact of fluoride-induced stress and inflammation in the development of Alzheimer’s disease and demonstrates the mechanism for cell death in its worsening over time.
https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/12/3965 

  • Goschorska M, et al. Potential Role of Fluoride in the Etiopathogenesis of Alzheimer’s Disease. Int. J. Mol. Sci. 2018, 19 (12), 3965. 

 

DEMENTIA: Describes mechanism by which the effectiveness of the two most popular drugs used to treat Alzheimer’s & other neurodegenerative dementia disease is reduced or blocked by fluoride. 

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/1/10/htm

  • Marta Goschorska, Izabela Gutowska, Irena Baranowska-Bosiacka, Katarzyna Piotrowska, Emilia Metryka, Krzysztof Safranow, Dariusz Chublek. Influence of Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitors Used in Alzheimer’s Disease Treatment on the Activity of Antioxidant Enzymes and the Concentration of Glutathione in THP-1 Macrophages  under Fluoride-Induced Oxidative Stress. Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2019, 16(1), 10. 

 

CANCER: Researchers who include an IARC scientist find esophageal cancer is 9.4 times more prevalent among those with dental fluorosis in the endemic fluorosis regions of Kenya. Provides biological plausibility that inflammatory fluoride affects microbiome and other biological mechanisms. Recommends more study. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30582155/

  • Menya D, Maina SK, Kibosia C, Kigen N, Oduor M, Some F, Chumba D3, Ayuo P, Middleton DR, Osano O, Abedi-Ardekani B, Schüz J, McCormack V. Dental fluorosis and oral health in the African Esophageal Cancer Corridor: Findings from the Kenya ESCCAPE case-control study and a pan-African perspective. Int J Cancer. 2018 Dec 23.

 

BONES & GENES: This 30 day animal study at 8 mg/L fluoride documents DNA & RNA damage that inhibits gene expression which can be passed on through generations affecting bone development and contributing to weak bones, blood & bone cancers and skeletal fluorosis. This is particularly important because EPA standards suggest that given this result, the 'safe' concentration of fluoride should be calculated at least 100 times less than what is now considered 'optimum.'  
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651318311734?via%3Dihub
 

  • Atule P. Daiwile, Prashant Tarale, Saravanadevi Sivanesan, et al. Role of fluoride induced epigenetic alterations in the development of skeletal fluorosis. Ecotoxicology and Environmental Safety. Volume 169, March 2019, Pages 410-417.

 

BRAIN INJURY: Fluoride interferes with calcium metabolism which impacts brain chemistry and poisons the hippocampus.  “The imbalance of calcium metabolism caused by fluorosis may be a pathogenesis of brain injury induced by fluoride.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518324007 

  • Qiuli Yu, Dandan Shao. Rui Zhang, Wei Ouyang, Zigui Zhang. Effects of drinking water fluorosis on L-type calcium channel of hippocampal neurons in mice. Chemosphere. Volume 220, April 2019, Pages 169-175. [Online Ahead of Print]

 

BRAIN DAMAGE: Prenatal & postnatal animal experiment using 10, 50 and 100 mg/L to simulate human experience documents mitochondrial damage and neuronal death as mechanism that result in learning and memory impairments. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30659323 

  • Zhao, Q., Niu, Q., Chen, J. et al. Roles of mitochondrial fission inhibition in developmental fluoride neurotoxicity: mechanisms of action in vitro and associations with cognition in rats and children. Arch Toxicol (2019).




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aka "Carrie Anne" writes:

 

"Oh course, if KenP had looked at the history of this thread beginning in Feb 2015, he would see I posted considerable scientific studies with discussion and that approximately 20+ seniors amiably joined in over a period of 3 years. That ended in June 2018 when the fluoride trolls descended en masse."

 

Response:  Glad to see you are documenting movements of the trolls.  If you get caught passing the dossier off to Christopher Steele, remind KenP that it was originally paid for by Republicans.  

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Yes, I see you download citations and make claims about them - in bulk. But no discussion.

This is not the place for an extensive exchange on all your citations so I will just respond to one of them - the Bashash et al (2018). I am very familiar with this and have written a document which is relevant:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330897483_Evidence_linking_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_...

While these studies do suffer from the problems of using data not designed for the hypothesis they test and the urinary F spot measures are really inadequate, I have concentrated on the over advocacy of the regression analysis results.

Yes, they were able to find a few parameters (not all they tested) that were significantly related to maternal urinary F but, like the earlier IQ study, the regressions are poor. An R-squared value of only 3% really does not suggest there is a real problem - especially as when more important risk-modifying factors like nutrition are included, the relationship with urinary F would probably disappear. (I found that the Malin and Till 2015 study also suffered from not including relevant risk-modifying factors - when they are included, the relationship with fluodiation disappears completely - see my paper:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321457780_Fluoridation_and_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_... )

 

Bashash et al (2018) do acknowledge limitations in their study and specifically mention nutrition as one. They imply they will do more work to include this. As Malin et al  (2018) found significant relationships between maternal nutrition and child IQ parameters with a subset of these child-mother pairs it will be interesting to see the results of including maternal nutrition in Bashash et al's regressions. Malin et al (2018) explained more of the variance (R-squared value over 11%) so I look forward to future publication from the group.

By the way, your claim that my "job was to develop fluoride-intensive fertilizers and pesticides" the is an absolute lie. I never worked with pesticides - or the development of fertilisers. You should be ashamed of lying in this way and it certainly undermines any claim you have to credibility.

Please stop such personal attacks and concentrate instead on good faith scientific exchange.

 

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Regular Contributor

Claims that fluoride is related to cancer are mistaken.

 

An exhaustive review of all the scientific data was done by the California Carcinogen Identification Committee.   Full briefs were filed by a number of fluoridation opponents.

 

The commmittee, composed of a scientists with broad technical expertise voted unanimously that fluoride is NOT ASSOCIATED WITH CANCER AT ANY concentration.

 

All of the documents considered may be viewed here:

http://www.oehha.ca.gov/prop65/public_meetings/cic092311.html

 

Formal reviews by expert panels are the highest quality of scientific information.   There really is nothing more to discuss re fluoride and cancer.

 

 

 

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I'm a native Californian and am fully familiar with the CA DPH analysis on fluoride carcinogenicity. They did not perform any experiments. They simply analyzed published materials. And again humans cannot be caged so they are limited to the data that was published by those humans who are not caged.

Most important, the Committee did not consider the Yiamouyiannis data because they were only looking for carcinogenic potential, not mortality incidence from extant cancers.

Their conclusion was that the evidence available in man does not prove fluoride causes cancer.

So what?

The Yiamouyiannis data prove that fluoride increases mortality in those who have cancer. lt appears to inmpair ones ability to fight cancer after it develops.

Again what is so difficult for you to grasp? And why is it my fault you cannot grasp it?  You call me names but have no justification for it. Give it up.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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I haven't looked too deeply into the fluoride-cancer issue, except for specifically analysing a few papers. But one thing that strikes me is that the reports anti-fluoride activists rely on usually have inadequate statistical analyses. For instance, ignoring the very low explanatory power of the relationships reported (low R-squared values) and ignoring other risk-modifying factors (which when included show that there is no real relationship with fluoride.

I discussed these problems with the Takahashi et al., (2001 paper here:

https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2017/08/07/fluoridation-and-cancer/

And the general reliance of anti-fluoride activists on poor statistical analyses here:
https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2017/12/05/anti-fluoridation-campaigners-often-use-statistical-s...


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1950s

  • "More doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette" 
  • "Ask your dentist, I would recommend Viceroys!" 
  • "Scientific evidence on the effects of smoking - Chesterfields are best for you!" 

2018

A Federal Court has ordered Altria, R.J. Reynolds Tobacco, Lorillard, and Philip Morris USA to make this statement about the health effects of smoking.

  • Smoking kills, on average, 1,200 Americans. Every day.
  • More people die every year from smoking than from murder, AIDS, suicide, drugs, car crashes, and alcohol, combined.
  • Smoking causes heart disease, emphysema, acute myeloid leukemia, and cancer of the mouth, esophagus, larynx, lung, stomach, kidney, bladder, and pancreas.
  • Smoking also causes reduced fertility, low birth weight in newborns, and cancer of the cervix.

We all live in our own time and are consequently subject to opinions of those times. We all remember that even after it finally was accepted that smoking kills, the tobacco giants insisted there was no danger from second hand smoke - right up until a few years ago when internal memos revealed they knew for decades that even 2nd hand smoke causes cancer and other disease.

 

  • Fluoridation is on its way to having the same reveal, and fluoride players are just as desperately trying to 'win' the argument with disinformation campaigns.  

As to the cancer data, cancer isn't my go to but I hate to see tobacco style misdirection from today's fluoridationists that misrepresents historical as well as scientific facts :

 

“I know of absolutely no, and I mean absolutely no means of prevention that would save so many lives as simply to stop fluoridation, or don't start it where it is otherwise going to be started.” - Dr. Dean Burk, biochemist at National Cancer Institute (1982)

"Over the course of five months (in 1978), the court held periodic hearings, which consisted of extensive expert testimony from as far away as England. At issue was the most recent time-trend study of Dr. Burk and Dr. Yiamouyiannis, which compared cancer mortality in ten cities which fluoridated their water systems with ten cities which did not fluoridate over a period of twenty-eight years from 1940 to 1968. The study concluded that there was a significant increase in cancer mortality in the fluoridated cities..My decision regarding the fluoridation of the public water supply, made during my tenure as a trial judge almost twenty years ago, was on appeal, purely a jurisdictional issue... That the practice is deleterious is more and more accepted -- its utility doubted." - Judge John P. Flaherty, Chief Justice in the Supreme Court of PA (1996)

  • in HIGHLIGHTS IN NORTH AMERICAN LITIGATION DURING THE TWENTIETH CENTURY ON FLUORIDATION OF PUBLIC WATER SUPPLIES by JR Graham  & P Marin, J. Land Use and Envtl. Law, Vol 14:2 (Spring 1999) 
    • In response to NIH objections: “Dr. Burk and his colleagues had a remarkable answer:  The available and pertinent data for the years after 1950, were 1953-1968. Without the trends in these years, nobody would suspect that there is a causal relationship between fluoridation and cancer. In its adjustment, the NCI considered l950 before fluoridation began in the experimental cities, and 1970 after fluoridation had already been initiated in the control cities, and did not consider the years 1953- 1968 which were the whole basis of concern. In other words, the NCI simply derived their CDRo values from data reported for 1950 and 1970, and ignored all else, as if 1953-1968 were unimportant. 

    • Having omitted all available and pertinent data in their adjustment, it is not surprising that the NCI came up with the wrong answer. In the same hearings before Congress, it was demonstrated by a colleague of Dr. Burk that, if the adjustment proposed by the NCI is undertaken using all available and pertinent data after 1950, there emerges an impressive association between fluoridation and age-race-sex adjusted cancer mortality.” 

License to KillLicense to Kill

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bronze Conversationalist

"Carrie Anne,"  

 

This is interesting, since you decided to chime in on the cancer issue that Dr. Richard brought up, here is a list of 116 things that can cause cancer.  .  .  I don't see fluoride or fluoridated water anywhere on it.  Hmm . . How do you explain that?  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/oct/28/116-things-that-can-give-you-cancer-list

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Conversationalist

David,

 

Like you, I questioned whether fluoride caused cancer.  Instead of going to a historical news society column, I went to PubMed and did a search for the words "cancer" and "fluoride"  in the primary literature.  Try it.  

 

In reading the articles, I came on one where a pharmaceutical company was testing their cancer TREATMENT drug on live animals.   The drug showed promise in curing the cancer.

 

Of interest to me was how they caused cancer in their test animals.   After all, finding a hundred cancer animals of the same age and cancer would be rather difficult with many many hundreds of thousands of animals or millions to find the cancers to test.  Imagine raising all those animals and simply testing each animal for cancer, the stage and kind of cancer.   An unimaginably massive and cost prohibitive task.

 

So the pharmaceutical companies CAUSE cancer in the animals.   That's right.  They cause the cancer so they can test the new cancer drug.  Not so human, but at least they get the cancer animals to test in a predictible timely manner.

 

Can you guess what chemical they used to CAUSE the cancer to test their drug?

 

You guessed it.  SODIUM FLUORIDE.

 

To argue that fluoride does not cause cancer shows a lack of careful evaluation of the literature.

 

The arguement is dosage, synergistic chemical effects, host sensitivity, genetics, etc.

 

With two thirds of children showing a toxic overdose of fluoride ingestion, hundreds of new untested chemicals being created each year, synergistic effects of known cancer chemicals, it is long past time to reduce total exposure.

 

Perhaps the final truth on all science has not been discovered and we need a safety factor, a margin of error, a "we don't know everything" and protect the public rather than assume government scientists are not politically influenced.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Bronze Conversationalist

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this is pure fiction:

 

"In reading the articles, I came on one where a pharmaceutical company was testing their cancer TREATMENT drug on live animals.   The drug showed promise in curing the cancer.

 

"Of interest to me was how they caused cancer in their test animals.   After all, finding a hundred cancer animals of the same age and cancer would be rather difficult with many many hundreds of thousands of animals or millions to find the cancers to test.  Imagine raising all those animals and simply testing each animal for cancer, the stage and kind of cancer.   An unimaginably massive and cost prohibitive task.

 

"So the pharmaceutical companies CAUSE cancer in the animals.   That's right.  They cause the cancer so they can test the new cancer drug.  Not so human, but at least they get the cancer animals to test in a predictible timely manner.

 

"Can you guess what chemical they used to CAUSE the cancer to test their drug?

 

"You guessed it.  SODIUM FLUORIDE."

 

If anybody wants to prove me wrong, now's the time.

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Bronze Conversationalist

Have those here even read the CA OEHHA report on fluoride and cancer below?

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwj1pO-x-8rgAhVIj54KHV7sC1k...

 

A key finidng is that fluoride transforms (converts normal cells to cancer cells) mammalian tissue cultures. The NRC 2006 Report tried to dismiss these data by claiming it has no relevance to humans. The CA review stated that the effrect has been confirmed repeatedly and that there is no evidence to justify the claim that it is irrelevant to humans..

Knowing how difficult it is to control humans in cages, and that it is not possible to study the possible carcinogenic potential of fluoide over lifelong time periods, to determine whether fluoride is carcinogenic or not, the serious effect proven in cultured mamalian cells is far too troubling to be laughed off. .

The Yiamouyiannis data was considered in the report and also in the CDC ATSDR full report 2003. No one can disprove it though many have tried, where fluoride inhibitis the immune system in fighting cancer and increases cancer morlality when it is present.

Get the crap out of our water..

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Bronze Conversationalist

BillO, your comment:

 

" Instead of going to a historical news society column, I went to PubMed and did a search for the words "cancer" and "fluoride"  in the primary literature. "

 

Response:  No doubt.  I'm sure there are dozens of studies by authors who have something they want to prove or have some sort of axe to grind . . . Or you could just take a look at the American Cancer Society's list of known and probable carcinogens.   It's right here.   https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/general-info/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens.html

 

Guess what, fluoride isn't listed.   But you're Dr. Bill.  I'm sure you are more knowledgable about cancer than the experts at the American Cancer Society.  

 

Your quote:  "Can you guess what chemical they used to CAUSE the cancer to test their drug?

 

You guessed it.  SODIUM FLUORIDE."

 

Response:  Guess what.  Sodium fluoride isn't listed as a known or probable cancer causer either.  You need to get the ACS on board with your way of thinking, because, you know, you're a lot smarter than they are.

 

 

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Trusted Contributor

Wow! Thank you for this insight, Dr. Osmunson!
Sodium fluoride, and probably other fluorides as well, are the chosen means to cause artificial cancer in test animals. This shows knowledge and callous disregard for the fact that fluorides are carcinogenic agents of destruction. And of course, this is directly in violation of the Safe Water Act, which prohibits any addition of chemicals into the water supply, which may cause cancer. I would not trust American Cancer Society, or any other industry affiliated association, to tell the truth as their livelihood depends on certain type of messaging. Just with a quick search I found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Sodium+fluoride+to+cause+cancer+in+test+animals

 

US population is subject to mass poisoning without their informed consent! What kind of a country is the United States anyway? What happened to basic freedoms to life, liberty, and justice, when this fluoridation policy is in effect? It appears US population has been conned to swallow the lies of petrochemical-fluoride-sugar industry to use the people as consumers and filters of the most noxious chemical agents without their knowledge and informed consent. Brainwashing does not count as an informed consent. Of course now the industry has launched an attack to hold on to this policy of destruction! 

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Bronze Conversationalist

It is very diffricult to prove in living human beings that a slow acting poison causes or does not cause cancer. I avoid the conclusion that fluoride does so in humans even though much evidence suggests it could, from the in vitro data on its mitogenic properties. Studying fluoride in tissue culture with a particular, convenient  cell type also is not much help in deciding whether it does or does not cause cancer in any other tissue. Bone tissue cannot be cultured.  It is a dififcult question for any scientist to address in humans. But in animals that can be placed in cages that are perfectly controlled, it most certaintly causes cancer when given for a significant fraction of the animals known lifespan.

As far as effects on dental caries in kids, the same problems arise only more so. Proving fluoride reduces decay or does not is diifficult in humans who cannot be put in cages. The Cochrane review found very few studies that could even be considered semi-decent. and in those no one could control variables such as how much candy one ate between groups, or how well brushing habits were, or so many other variables that affect the oral cavity exposed to the surroundings betwen the control and experimental groups..Experiments with caged animals prove no effect of fluoridated water on spontaneous caries. Period.  

Further, when teeth were scored in the original human experiments in Grand Rapids and Newburg, the absence of teeth were scored as absence of dental caries. We now know that fluoride ingestion causes delayed teeth eruption due to probably its effect on the thyroid.  So no teeth, no caries, and voila fluoride "reduces dental decay". i could say the same thing if one were to remove my teeth with a hammer. The procedure reduced caries. So what? For this we expose millions of innocent victims to chronic systemic poisoning by fluoride?

Fluoride is a toxic substance at any concentration in the blood. It is not listed in nursing texts, the Merck Manual, or any Clinical Chemistry text as being a component of normal human blood--because it is a contaminant of blood.

At 3-4 ppm in the blood, as during an overfeed where one actually consumes lots of water, death ensues due to heart block as occurred in Hooper Bay from an accidental overfeed.

Aat 1 ppm in blood, as occurs in paitents using municipal fluioride water in kidney dialysis wards, mortality increases over periods of months due to cardiac failure.

At 0.1 pppm as occurs in the average consumer of 1 ppm fluoridated water (NRC, 2006)  chronic poisoning occurs. Skeletal fluoride incorporation begins with the very first sip and progresses throughout life, causing formation of bone of poor quailty.

These are the facts.

The fluoridation scam is just that, a misguided attempt to help kids but we now know is actually harming them and everyone else.

The Safe Drinking Water Act prohbits requiring any substance added into U.S. waters other than that required to sanitize the water. Fluoridationists, including the dental officials at the CDC especially, follow the law and leave the rest of society alone please. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Conversationalist

Bill, could you please provide a citation for this paper you refer to - the use of NaF to induce cancer?

I would like to check out the conditions used to assess its relevance to this discussion.

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Bronze Conversationalist

"Carrie Anne,"

 

Thank you for providing cigarette advertisements from the 1950s.  If that is your idea of science, it says a lot about why you take statements from legitimate studies out of context. 

 

Please show me the peer-reviewed studies from the 1950s which demonstrate the positive health effects from smoking.  

 

Here are 3 demonstrating positive health effects from drinking optimally fluoridated water.  

 

1.)    Community Effectiveness of Public Water Fluoridation in Reducing Children's Dental Disease

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2925001/?fbclid=IwAR1zG0dD79ylheW-aFjOYuORp8ekEGAR4mnUU...

"children residing in areas with ≥0.7 ppm fluoride in the water supplies had both lower caries prevalence and lower caries experience."

 

2.)   Fluoride Concentration of Drinking Water in Babil-Iraq

http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/jas/2011/3315-3321.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3AuGPkThTk0lwJZWA1X_Yx_ZV2emwK4T...

"... it is found that the level of fluoride is far below the upper level recommended by WHO and by Bureau of Iraqi Standards. To prevent dental caries, it is recommended that drinking water in iraq should be fluorideated."

 

3.)   Water fluoridation in 40 Brazilian cities: 7 year analysis

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1678-77572013000100013&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=e...

"The majority of samples from cities performing fluoridation had fluoride levels within the range that provides the best combination of risks and benefits, minimizing the risk of dental fluorosis while preventing dental caries"

 

It is interesting that you would cite Dr. Dean Burk who worked for the National Cancer Institute and who also said water fluoridation leads to cancer, since the National Cancer Institute is on the record saying there is no relationship between water fluoridation and cancer:  

 

"After examining more than 2.2 million cancer death records and 125,000 cancer case records in counties using fluoridated water, the researchers found no indication of increased cancer risk associated with fluoridated drinking water"  https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/myths/fluoridated-water-fact-sheet

 

Oh . . by the way, before I forget, Ken P, a retired chemist living in New Zealand, invited you for a scientific exchange on his blog page, "Open Parachute."  The advantage of such an exchange on that forum is that comments won't be lost or buried by other people commenting who are in fact attempting to bury them.  You wouldn't know anything about that though, would you.  

 

So I am confused by your response.  It is rather vague.  Is that a "Yes," you would be delighted to engage in this proposed discourse, or is that a "No," you would rather have your out-of-context citations remain unchallenged, . . . and if challenged, have the corrections buried?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Fluoridation advocates and their political partners ”share only partial, biased information in order to support their case, and convey information in terms that misrepresent the actual situation.” - A. Gesser-Edelsburg & Y. Shir-Raz in Communicating risk that involve ‘uncertainty bias’… Journal of Risk Research. August 2016.  

 

KenP revealed his identity on 2/18/2019 when he wrote "Read my recent article on.... OpenParachute.wordpress.com...."

 

The blog posts of a retired chemist living in New Zealand are not science and the efforts of a small team of fluoridationists who overwhelm every online conversation in the English speaking world with vindictive is not ethics. It's an orchestrated disinformation campaign

If you want to brush your teeth with fluoridated toothpaste, I won't stop you. If you want to buy a gallon of fluoridated water for a buck to drink at your kitchen table, more power to you - but not the power to enact an immoral medical mandate to add this drug to municipal water supplies where it worsens the health of those with arthritis, psoriasis, thyroid disease, kidney disease, etc. 

 

2017 in Revista médica de ChileThe impact of tap water fluoridation on human health (don't - fluoridation causes various diseases in the asthmatic-skeletal, neurological, endocrine and skin systems)  https://www.NCBI.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28453591

 

2018 in Scientific ReportImpact of Drinking Water Fluoride on Human Thyroid Hormones (Recommends RO and distilled water because even 0.5 mg/L has an adverse impact)https://www.NCBI.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/

 

2014 in Toxicology. Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats. (“Optimal levels” worsen kidney function😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004

 

KenP self identifies as NZ bloggerKenP self identifies as NZ blogger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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CarryAnne - what a weird response. I comment here with a reasonable offer for you to expand on the numerous claims and citations you have made here. I offer a good faith scientific exchange along the lines of that I had with Paul Connett 5 years ago. I made that exchange available also on Researchgate and it had had numerous downloads and reads. I have been told that people have found it an ideal source becuase of the topics covered and the citations used by Paul and me. Don't forget, at least half of the content was Paul's

And you respond with what looks like a deranged Neo-McCarthyist attack.

Do you understand what astroturfing is? I am picking you don't because, at least on my side, there has never been an example of astroturfing.

And what is this about me "revealling" my identity as if I had something to hide. I registed here with my perosnal information and location - nothing is hidden. I refer to myself, my research, my scientific publications and to my blog articles on this issue. Nothing is hidden from my side. I have an extensive published research record and all that is easily available online and can be accessed at Researchgate:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ken_Perrott/research

Perhaps I should make the charge that you are hiding you full name, using a non-deplume and providing no information on your background or expertise (or lack thereof).

Come on! Front up. What is your answer. Will, you particpate in an uncensored free exchange of the science in good faith? If not, why not? At the moment it looks very much as if you are running away from the offer and spreading disinformation to cover your retreat.

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