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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 241 of 1,426

CarryAnne - you should take your own advice - "Repeating a lie doesn't make it true." 

You make unwarranted claims and provide citations which often do not support them. That is simply propaganda.

Now, if you were actually willing to enter into good faith, uncensored, open exchange of the science of your claims and citations that would be different. But I think you are aware of that and your demonstrated refusal to enter into a normal human exchange indicates you are very aware you are simply in the propaganda business - truth is your last concern.

Naturally, people have built up immunity to propaganda like this. We can recognise fake news when we see it.


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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 242 of 1,426

"Sticks and stones...." 

          "Repeating a lie doesn't make it true." 

 

The controlled dose study in the 1950s before fluoridated toothpaste documented coppery brown staining and and thin enamel in some of those children. (Prenatal and postnatal ingestion of fluorides - A Progress Report. Reuben Feltman, D.D.S. Dental Digest. August 1956.)

 

The 1962 govt memo from the first fluoridation trial city documented a disproportionate dental fluorosis impact well in excess of what predicted, again from before fluoridated toothpastes, i.e. 15% white v. 35% black children. This is why fluoridation policy is an environmental justice issue and opposed by many human rights activists. 

 

“When studying any matter, ask yourself two things: what are the facts and what is the truth that the facts bear out. Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, or what you think would have beneficent social effects if it were believed.

Look only and solely at what are the facts.”

-  Bertrand Arthur William Russell, logician and Nobel laureate on evidence and data analysis (1959)

Screen Shot 2019-02-25 at 2.43.57 PM.pngFeltman 1956

 

Screen Shot 2019-02-25 at 2.49.59 PM.png1962 Memo

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Frequent Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 243 of 1,426

CarryAnne - you claim "Fluoridation has been proved dangerous by hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more) studies."

Considering the subject under discussion and normal use of the word I am assuming you mean community water fluoridation.

Could you please cite a couple of these hundreds/thousands of studies?

I am aware of several studies investigating harmful effects from community water fluoridation - the New Zeland, Candian and Swedish studies are examples. None of these showed any evidence of harm -quite the contrary.

So I am curious what hundreds and thousands of studies on community water fluoridation you have picked up and I have missed.

And since when have resolutions at union meetings become a substitute for real science?

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 244 of 1,426

Bill, it's not a matter of studies being "flawed." All studies have limitations - its a matter fo discussing them.

The Broadbent study was part of the world acclaimed Dunedin study and therefore had many advantages. It did answer the question of whether fluoridation itself caused cognitive deficits - which has been the claim of the Connett crowd for the last few years. It doesn't.

Any limitations are minor compared with those of the poor quality Chines studies made in areas of endemic fluorosis - the most obvious of those limitations is that those studies had nothing to do with fluoridation and that health problems are very common with people living in such areas.


Specifically, there is no evidence that F intake was unusual in the NZ study - drinking water could be presumed to be the main source. Water sources were "not problematic" - there was either CWF or not. And "other flaws" is simply a copout. You cannot find anything of significance wrong with that study.

I have asserted that the major limitation of that study (and of most other studies to a large extent) is the confidence intervals - the sizes of which are determined by sample number. For this reason, Broadbent has pointed to the Swedish study as being more important in that CIs were very low as the sample numbers were very high.

 

You do not say what the "serious flaws" of the Swedish study were - I can only assume that in the eyes of the Connett crowd the "serious flaws" in all fluoridation studies is that they do not give the answers Connett wanted. If they did he would have been lauding those studies as the best things since sliced bread. Their disgusting behavior over the NTP study shows this - Connett predicted that study would lead to the end of fluoridation worldwide and was very flattering in describing the study - until it produced a result he did not want (no effect of F on cognitive abilities). Now he and his crowd are slandering the research and the researchers.

Yes, dental fluorosis of serious or moderate form is a sign of excess fluoride and it is the sole factor used in defining the upper limits in drinking water. The research indicates that in communities where community water fluoridation is used (and therefore in which drinking water does not contain excessive fluoride) the major cause of dental fluorosis is excessive consumption of other fluoride sources - mainly ingestion of toothpaste.

No, that 2% with moderate or severe dental fluorosis is not something to be happy about. That is why health authorities do campaign on how children should use toothpaste and how to avoid excessive consumption of toothpaste.

I look forward to your response to my comments on the Bashash studies - the comments which CaryAnne simply refuses to respond to as she avoids any proper scientific exchange.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 245 of 1,426

And F has no physiologic role in urine or blood and is in urine because the kidneys,are eliminating a toxic waste from the system. Unfortunately fluoride accumulates in bone before the kidneys can eliminate it all.

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 246 of 1,426

Thanks Dr. Osmunsen.

On page 91 in the NRC 2006 Report it is clear that in the 8 studies examined for urine fluoride that the water fluoride concentration typically matches that in the urine over the range 0.09 to 2.7 ppm.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 247 of 1,426

”No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." —Albert Einstein

 

Fluoridation has been proved dangerous by hundreds (perhaps a thousand or more) studies, even those at low dose concentrations. Additionally, toxicology guidelines dictate that the animal studies that find damage at 10, 50, and 100 mg/L are sufficient to ban fluoridation as unsafe for vulnerable sub-populations. Since those guidelines are not followed, it seems U.S. EPA scientists are correct when they claim fluoride is a 'politically protected pollutant.' 

 

  • Fluoridation policy is a reckless public harm policy, that is particularly dangerous to the very young, those in fragile health and senior citizens. Fluoridation policy is scientifically and ethically corrupt. 

 

"We applied EPA's risk control methodology, the Reference Dose, to the recent neurotoxicity data. The Reference Dose is the daily dose, expressed in milligrams of chemical per kilogram of body weight, that a person can receive over the long term with reasonable assurance of safety from adverse effects. Application of this methodology to the Varner et al.\4 data leads to a Reference Dose for fluoride of 0.000007 mg/kg-day. Persons who drink about one quart of fluoridated water from the public drinking water supply of the District of Columbia while at work receive about 0.01mg/kg-day from that source alone. This amount of fluoride is more than 100 times the Reference Dose. On the basis of these results the union filed a grievance, asking that EPA provide un-fluoridated drinking water to its employees.
"

- From NTEU Chapter 280 statement, “Why EPA’s Headquarters Union of Scientists Opposes Water Fluoridation” (May 1, 1999)

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 248 of 1,426

Ken,

 

I agree nutrition is a confounding issue in almost all health studies.  But I would disagree that the few studies showing no neurotox effect of fluoride had good nutrition control and those showing IQ loss were all flawed.  And the NZ study did not compare total fluoride ingestion, water sources were problematic, and other flaws.  The Swedish study had serious flaws.  All have limitations.  

 

We are looking for safety, not absolute proof of harm.  

 

Would you agree, dental fluorosis is a sign of excess fluoride ingestion prior to age 8 while the teeth are developing?

 

Would you agree with the NRC 2006 report that severe dental fluorosis is an adverse health effect. . . harm?

 

Would you agree with the NHANES 2011-2012 survey in the USA that 2% of adolescents have severe dental fluorosis, 20% moderate or severe?

 

If so, then you would agree that 2% are being harmed from excess fluoride exposure.  

 

Is 2% of adolescents (and growing) harmed OK with you?  What percentage of the population harmed would not be acceptable to you?  At what point would you say too many are ingesting too much fluoride?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

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Re: Examine the Evidence

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Message 249 of 1,426

I do not have the skill to search back for my response to CarryAnne re the Bashash studies. However, they related to

The statistically poor nature of the reported relationship with maternal urinary F (R-squared of 3%);

The fact maternal nutrition was not considered - despite the fact that Malin et al (2018) showed a much better relationship for this (R-squared greater than 11%) for a subsample of the same child-mother pairs.

It is very possible that the inclusion of maternal nutrition in the multiple regression would show no significant relationship for maternal prenatal urinary F.

The fact that no significant relationship was found with child urinary F.

You can find more detailed critiques from me here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330897483_Evidence_linking_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324216872_Predictive_accuracy_of_a_model_for_child_IQ_based...

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321457780_Fluoridation_and_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_...

 

You say:

"Over the last couple decades there have been about 50 more published studies on fluoride's neurotoxicity.    What is the trend?  "

You omit to mention the vast majority of these studies relate to areas of endemic fluorosis - there are many health problems in these population.

All the studies related to community water fluoridation (in New Zealand and Canada) or populations exposed to similar concentrations (Sweden) show there is no effect of fluoride on IQ. So the trend is clearly to show no effect for CWF.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 250 of 1,426

RossF715288 I will respond to the several items you raise separately.

 

1: I do not know who you are or who  ‘r3sponse’ is. Nor am I familiar with the incident you describe related to Victoria. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. As I don't know you,  ‘r3sponse’, or anything about your claim I can not comment further.

 

2: I will comment on the specifics of your claim about the NZ Oral Health survey when I have checked to pages you refer to (possibly tomorrow). At the moment I can say I am well aware that the document says it is not an in-depth fluoridation study. My usual point in referring to the study, though, is that attempts were made to ensure the collected samples were representative.

I can explain some aspects of this by referring to the data from the New Zealand school dental service for 12-year-olds (2017) you refer to. I have written about the latest data here, so am familiar with them:

https://openparachute.wordpress.com/2019/01/23/preempting-the-annual-misrepresentation-of-nz-dental-...

Obviously, the data from the New Zealand school dental service is also not an in-depth study of fluoridation. it is simply a record of treatments for the treated children. No attempt to make the data representative or to overcome problems such as the use of fluoride varnish treatments of children's teeth in unfluoridated areas.

It always amazes me when anti-fluoride activists stoop to using this uncorrected data while rejecting the Oral Health Survey data where attempts were made to ensure the data was representative. Simply pointing to the large numbers in the dental service data is naive to the extreme - or opportunist.

While much more must be done to overcome those sort of problems inherent in such data I have simply corrected for ethnic effects (the preponderance of Pacific Island Children in fluoridated areas skews the total data).

So while the use of the total data, uncorrected for ethnic differences, as you have done  is simply not scientific, once separated along ethnic lines the data shows the following:

For 5-year-olds the 
overall data suggest a benefit of fluoridation to Maōri and “other” children – about 14% for “Other” and 25% for Māori children (using the data for mean dmft).


For year 8 children the DMFT data suggest a benefit of about 30.5% for Māori and 26% for “Other” children.

3: Regarding the ChildSmile programme, and similar programmes in other countries, I have also written about them and am aware aspects of these programmes, which include fluoride varnish treatments for young children, are also part of the health programmes used in New Zealand.

https://openparachute.wordpress.com/?s=ChildSmile

I am therefore interested in Gertrude Clark’s 2017 thesis you refer to - could you please provide me a link?

Experts agree programmes like this can be successful - but describe them as complementary to community water fluoridation (as it is in New Zealand), not as a substitute.

As always, one must look below the surface to understand such issues, not rely on claims made by biased ideologically driven activists.

4: Could you please back up your claim that we are "adding a neurotoxin to community water supplies." I am aware of the literature used by Connett's crowd in an attempt to shift the debate about negative effects away from dental fluorosis and into IQ but the evidence used in either irrelevant, coming from areas of endemic fluorosis, or extremely weak (the recent Bashash studies). The studies made in New Zealand, Sweden and Canada of fluoride concentrations used for CWF also showed no negative effect. In fact, the Swedish study confirmed a number of positive social effects beyond improvement of oral health (but possibly a result of that improvement).

I will leave it here for tonight but may return to specifics depending on your response.

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