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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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“A wide variety of plants are sensitive to fluoride toxicity… Fluoride is an accumulative poison in plant foliage. Accumulation may be gradual over time… Avoid fluoridated water.” - in  “Fluorine Toxicity in Plants” (2018)

 

“fluoride concentration as low as 0.5 mg F-/l can adversely affect invertebrates and fishes, safe levels below this fluoride/l concentration are recommended in order to protect freshwater animals from fluoride pollution.”  - in "Fluoride toxicity to aquatic organisms: a review" (2003)

 

But the focus of this thread and the AARP is the adverse impact of fluoridation policy on Senior Health which includes the immorality of using municipal water supplies to dose the population with a substance which is known to be medically contraindicated for many with inflammatory, immune system, thyroid and kidney disease

 

Moreover, fluoride accumulates in bodies, brains and bones over time where it is known to cause or worsen conditions including arthritis, brittle bones, kidney disease and dementia. Baby boomers are the first generation that has been subjected to long term chronic low dose exposure. 

 

See today's press release that mentions 5 fluoride studies presented this month at an international conference of scientists addressing issues in environmental exposure and health. Those studies again validate the adverse health impact of low dose exposure to fluoride. The press release also includes a quote from Attorney Paul Beeber on the political manipulation of fluoridationists who attempt to influence decision makers with distraction. 

 

Click here to go to the first February 2015 comment and use PREVIOUS button in order to advance through the 60 comments from about 20 seniors prior to the troop of fluoride trolls trashing this forum with long off topic and frequently abusive comments. 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 882 of 1,333

Obviously there is no concern for the dental health of salmon. Thus, artificial fluoridation of the Sacramento river, or any other body of water, is truly about dumping of toxic industrial waste with the pretense that humans, salmon, or any other species have some negligible benefit. This is truly worse than ridiculous!

There is no science proving any benefit of ingesting industrial waste, such as fluorine compounds. These are labeled by law as “category 6 toxic industrial waste”. Just telling the masses, and some venally interested entities, that there is “some benefit” does not pass the evidential burden that speaks for itself, regardless of all the opinions and dilution of damage claims  by authoritative bodies.

Obviously the motto holds true that, “the solution to pollution is dilution”, and the masses serve as filters due to wide spread gullibility!  Again, all fluorides are toxic componds of fluorine (F) gas, not meant for consumption: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0046.html

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 883 of 1,333

The enviorrmental effects of fluoridation are not limited to potential effects on salmon and other species of fish. The effect reminds me of what happened to avocado ranchers in Escondido after fluoridiaotn began there in 2005. The sodium content of the water surged past 100 ppm which causes saline intolerant avocado trees to developo leaf blight with dried leaves and low fruit production. I was criticized by fluoridation promoters who claimed it was not due to fluoridation becaue most of the total saline came from industries along the Colorado River and only a small fraction of hte toal was due to fluosilicic acid plus sodium hydroxide infusions required to neutralize the fluoridaiton chemicals. But these individuals failed to grasp that the last saline infusions that wre responsible for exceeding the tolerable limit for avocados of 100 ppm was the sodium from fluoridation. 

The effect was so substantial that farmers objected so strongly here locally that the Escondido water district had no choice but to respond. But instead of halting fluoridation (where the water district operator there actually believes fluoride is a food and is harmless at all times to everyone) the city decided to build a multi million dollar separate pipeline for the avocado orchards that is reverse osmosis treated to remove the saline (and fluoride). 

Tax;payers of course have to pay for all thiseven though the real solution  was to halt fluoridation wihcih doesn't reduce dental caries anyway. But no, the city went with the new constuirction to save the trees from saline blight.

The salmon industry in Sacrameno is a similar situation.  Many things contributed to the decline in salmon runs over the years including a large drought one year. But fluoridation remains and droughts come and go, all while salmon populations up the river itself remain far below normal. What does this all tell you?

If fluoridationists had their own way and argued to the EPA that fluoride discharges into rivers where salmon spawn have absolutely no effect on salmon migration or populations, then fluoridation may as well spread to all the cities along the Sacramento river where salmon spawn and all the tributaries and other rivers where salmon spawn as well.  All fluoridation of rivers and people of course though is abolutely useless.

If we are going to discuss good scientists vs bad scientists, let's talk about the Kumar data which were thought good enough to publish, and yet that data was a grossly misinterpreted to affect public policy for everyone in the country. The mean difference between fluorotic teeth and control teeth was not significantly outside experimental error. The claim that fluorotic teeth experience less dental decay is wrong and made no sense in the first place  since enamel hypoplasia is a more accurate term for it, where thinned enamel does not protect teeth dentin as well as normal. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 884 of 1,333

I don't give up anything I have stated. None of the tributaries are fluoridated. Only the main stem is. And the salmon levels remain far below normal there and the river there remains fluoridated. And as stated before, it may be that salmon can adjust and imprint the chemical conditions that prevail and grow in number again. But why is this necessary in the first place? There are many contributors to salmon population reduction and fluoride is known to be one of them. And fluoridation of spawning  grounds continues in spite of salmon population problems that have occurred.

You believe what you want. And I believe fluoridation of the river is wrong. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 885 of 1,333

Richard, your quote:  "I'm looking at the bar graph. There are there categories in each bar and the mainstream category of salmon returns is what was decimated and remained so all through the years reported, to 2017, just as I said."

 

Response:  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586%C2%A0

 

The Bar Graph is entitled "Figure 1."  There are three categories in each bar.  1.)  Hatcheries, 2.) Mainstem (not mainstream), and 3.) Tributaries.  

 

All three categories showed improvement after 2009.  I invite all readers of this thread to look at the graph and judge this for themselves.  

 

You said water fluoridation began in 2010. You also said water fluoridation was responsible for the collapse of the salmon industry in the Sacramento River.  The evidence does not support your outrageous theory.  There is no evidence for it.  Indeed, the evidence debunks your claims. 

 

Give it up, Richard.  You are embarrassing yourself.  You call yourself a scientist, yet you are unable to accept empirical evidence, the foundation of all science, when it disagrees with your agenda.   

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 886 of 1,333

I'm looking at the bar graph. There are there categories in each bar and the mainstream category of salmon returns is what was decimated and remained so all through the years reported, to 2017, just as I said.

The city of Sacramento fluoridates all water supplies to the city, not just some of the water. Just like all other cities that fluoridate, the wastewater contains the same concentration of fluoride as what was put into it at the fluoridation facililty. All discharged water from municipal pipes comes from comercial and residential users that is fully fluoridated. There is no other water source to dilute it. The 1 ppm fluuoridated waste water is discharged directly into the river because the sanitizing treatment is not able to remove fluoride. Fluoride ion is a sphere, the same size as a water molecule, and cannot be filtered.  I don't need to travel by boat to the discharge output point and take a sample of the discharge water to know that it is fluoridated. 

No one can say or has said that only fluoridation is entirely responsible for the full collapse of the salmon fishing industry in Sacramento, and that includes me. Fluoride discharges into the river where they spawn contributed its share to the collapse. It was the last obviously added contributor before the collapse became complete.  Fluoridation began many months before, not during or after, the discovered total collapse. My memory recalls the collapse being full and reported by fishermen and Pacific Fisheries and the news media in late 2010. The fluoridation of Sacramento had already begun many months prior to this, and if I recall in early 2010. The point is that fluoridation was ongoing prior to the reported full collapse.

Fluoridation is still ongoing and those who conduct it care less about the fact that salmon are adversely affected by low level fluoride in water and that Sacramento River salmon are abnormally reduced in number.  Fluoridation promoters appear so gravely concerned about caries reduction that documented effects on human bone (and any effects the discharged wastewater may have on  salmon popoulations) are not a concern.

But eating and drinking fluoride in any amount do not lead to lowered incidence of caries, and adverse effects on human health as well as environmental issues for the treated wastewater are indeed the concern. Fluoridation is unnecessary, harmful, and must be halted.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 887 of 1,333

Dr. Sauerheber,

 

Now you are down to, "it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon," from your original claim that fluoridation was responsible for the collapse.  

 

You have a theory that effluent with some amount of fluoride in it (now it's) in part was responsible for this.  You have no idea what the average daily discharge is into the river.  You have no idea what the flow of the river is at the point of discharge.  You have no idea what the amount of fluoride is in the effluent, because it's never been measured.  This is important, fundamental data.  

 

You said that fluoridation began in 2010.  

 

Thank you for your link http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586  .  On it we see a bar graph which confirms what I already said.  Chinook salmon returns hit an all time low in 2009.  In 2010, the same year that fluoridation began, salmon abundance improved.  And, as I previously said, it improved until 2013.  Take a look at the bar graph.

 

You have no knowledge of even the most fundamental data required to make such an outrageous claim.  Moreover, historical trends of salmon runs completely debunk the idea.  

 

There is nothing left to be said about it.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 888 of 1,333

The EPA does not regulate community water fluoridation. The agency prevents cities from infusing fluoride to a level exceeding the MCL's--that's it. They do not monitor caries effects of water fluoridation and they take no responsiblilty or liability for any city that decides to fluoridate its people for assumed dental effect.

Likewise the EPA did not know beforehand that discharging fluoridated water into the Sacramento river, or any other river where salmon need to swim to spawn, would be totally harmless to fish. The EPA didn't even consider this concern before fluridation was allowed (not prohibited) by the agency. 

This mirrors what happened in 1945 when fluoridation was argued to be a success in decreasing dental caries, without considering what happened to the bones of residents. It was later found that the presence of thickened bones seen only on Xray examination by experts, increased in incidence in fluoridated consumers compared to non-fluoridated. And decay after several years when all tooth erupt is the same in control and F treated cities.

Fluoridation has been ongoing without proof of safety for 70 years now, all to the detriment of those who freely drink it. We now have an epidemic of hip fractures in the elderly with 1/3 million cases annually, and of hip, knee, and elbow replacement surgeries. And why would you expect anything else when 70% of U.S. water districts fluoridate the bones of their customers without permission? 

The EPA, CDC or anyone else did not prove that fluoridation of people would have no effects on brain or brain development either before the policy was instituted.  

The CDC now admits that systemic fluoride from the blood has no ablity to decrease dental decay. And topical fluoride from water at 0.7 ppm is 2,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste with no ability to decrease dental decay, and saliva fluoride which bathes teeth continuously at 0.016 ppm in a 1 ppm fluoridated city, 94,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste, is also worthless. Fluoridated water is useless, harmful, illegal, and its promotion is a false policy. The problem is difficult to overcome becaue of false beliefs that are widespread, but neverthtless deserves to be overcome.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 889 of 1,333

We've already gone over this. There is no media report that blames the collapse on fluoride discharges that occurred prior to it. I made the claim, not the news media. The news once tried to claim that it is not the fluoridoatn of the water becasue the collapse occurred before fluoridaiotn, but htis is false. The south section of the city began fluoridating before the event that caused the complete collapse of the fishing industry on the river.  The public was not told about fluoridating until the rest of the city did so nearlya year later.

In the 1970's and 80's the salmon leaving the mainstream River routienly numbered 100,000. The number began to decline in 2007 because of, it is argued, a severe drought. This is probably ture among other factors as well. But notice that since Sacramento became fluoridated with a fluoridated water discharge pipe in the river, the number in the main stream has remained dismal until 2017, at or less than 10,000 per season. This is a 90% collapse of the fish that caused a 100% collapse in the fishing industry with loss of thousands of jobs.  This is reported in:  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586 but the authors do not know anything about fluoridation or when it began so it is not discussed of course.

We only have an incomplete view of what actually goes on because so many variables are in play, but the point is that it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon in the face of the Univ. of Oregon data, and flatly false to claim that fluoridation only happened after the complete collapse. And it is absurd to continue fluoridation of the river when the salmon industry has been so destroyed.

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 890 of 1,333

Excuse me? I explained the truth, which is beng ignored by fluoridation promoters. 1 ppm fluoricated water lifetime causes bone fluoride to accumulate  to thousands of mg/kg in bone, higher than in fluoridated toothpaste, where it does not belong and where it alters the crystal structure of bone. The NRC data proved that levels above this increase hip fractures compared to the incidence at 1 ppm. This does not translate into the idea that no increased fractures occur at 1 ppm. Thatl is absurd. The NRC did not look at exposures less than 1 ppm. So the clakin that Dr. Osmunson is somehow flawed is incorrect.

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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