Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

[CarryAnne]

“The evidence that fluoride is more harmful than beneficial is now overwhelming… fluoride may be destroying our bones, our teeth, and our overall health.” - Dr. Hardy Limeback,  former President of Canadian ADA, Head of Preventive Dentistry at Univ of Toronto, 2006 National Research Council Scientist (2007)

The 2006 National Research Council on Fluoride in Drinking Water commented to the EPA that fluoridation at 1 ppm can be anticipated to be harmful for those with reduced renal function and the elderly. The NRC confirmed that fluoride not excreted by kidneys builds up in bones, resulting in arthritic pain and increased brittleness. However, there were no EPA studies on the whole health impacts of fluoridated water on susceptible population such as kidney patients, children, those with prolonged disease or the elderly. There still aren’t. 

However, there is mounting science from other sources that “optimally fluoridated” water, which is known to cause varying degrees of dental fluorosis in 58% of Black American adolescents and 36% of White American adolescents, is causing subtle deficits in ability to remember or focus. That same “optimal level” has also been proved in a 2014 study as being nephrotoxic in rats with chronic kidney disease. Chronic kidney disease (CKD) affects approximately 15% of Americans, although CKD is quadruple the rate in Black Americans, and predictably worse in older Americans. 

Perhaps the most horrifying part of the story of fluoridation is that not only is at least 50% of every drop of fluoride that has passed the lips of a Baby Boomer permanently stored in bones, fluoride isn't the only poison in packages of fluoride that originate as the waste product of aluminum an phosphate industry. 100% of the fluoride sampled in a 2014 study was contaminated with aluminum; arsenic and lead were other common contaminants. In other words, fluoridated water serves as a delivery system for aluminum and lead into our bones and our brains. As we all know, aluminum is associated with Alzheimers in adults, and lead is associated with learning disabilities in children. Approximately 15% of the population who is sensitive to chemicals cite inability to think clearly and overwhelming fatigue as symptoms of exposure to fluoridated water. 

Our generation was part of a great human experiment. It may have had noble intentions based on the faulty hypothesis that  drinking fluoridated water prevented cavities. It is now known that any perceived benefits of fluoride are from tooth brushing.  Our grandchildren are the third generation in this travesty. I suggest we all DEMAND the AARP stand up for us and our grandchildren by issuing a strong position paper calling for the cessation of water fluoridation. 

SCIENCE REFERENCES

1. 2014 in Toxicology. Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats. (“Optimal levels” worsen kidney function😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24561004
    
2. 2015  in Neurotoxicology and Teratology. Association of lifetime exposure to fluoride and cognitive functions in Chinese children: A pilot study.  (Children with visible dental fluorosis perform less well on memory tasks, correlating with the degree of severity of their fluorosis. One of a series of human and animal studies with the same consistent findings.😞 
1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25446012  
2. http://braindrain.dk/2014/12/mottled-fluoride-debate/ 
   
   
3. 2014 in Physiology and Behavior. Fluoride exposure during development affects both cognition and emotion in mice. (Measurable behavioral changes😞 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24184405
   
   
4. 2014 in International Journal of Occupational and Environmental Health. A new perspective on metals and other contaminants in fluoridation chemicals. (All samples of fluoride are contaminated with aluminum, plus other contaminants like arsenic, lead and barium); 
1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24999851
2. http://momsagainstfluoridation.org/sites/default/files/Mullenix%202014-2-2.pdf
   
   
5. 2014 in Scientific World Journal. Water Fluoridation: A Critical Review of the Physiological Effects of Ingested Fluoride as a Public Health Intervention. (Health risks and cost don't justify minimal and questionable dental benefit.):  http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

RACIAL INEQUITY (FOIA)

Here are three Oct 2014 news articles on the content of the Freedom of Information Act documents. Rev. Andrew Young, former UN ambassador has pursued them with the CDC, but to little effect. Civil Rights leaders have been calling for an end to community water fluoridation (CWF) since 2011. 

• 1. Black Americans disproportionately harmed: http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/health-care/item/19317-feds-blacks-suffer-most-from-fluoride-fl...
• 2. CDC, ADA and Pew inappropriate relationships: http://benswann.com/do-newly-released-emails-reveal-conflict-of-interest-between-the-cdc-and-the-ada...
• 3. Kidneys, Civil Rights & Ralph Nader: http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2014/10/428383.shtml

2015 LEGAL ARGUMENT (GROSS DISPROPORTIONALITY) 

There is a legal initiative in Peel, Ontario (pop 1.3m) to remove fluoride from the water supply based on the principle of gross disproportionality, i.e. marginal benefit does not justify great risk of harm. There is also a political effort afoot in Canadian govt to mandate fluoridation and thereby make the legal argument moot. I suggest this document is well-worth printing.  http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/peel.june2014.pdf

• a. The first 19 pages of this document is about the legal strategy. It includes summary of US legal cases that found water fluoridation harmful to the public, but legal under US "police power" mandate.
• b. Starting on page 20 is a devastating affidavit by Dr. Kathleen Thiessen, NAS/NRC scientist and international expert in risk assessment. Very readable summary of science indicating harm to populations in “optimally” fluoridated communities. 

POPULATION WITH LOW CHEMICAL THRESHOLD

1. In excess of 25% of previously healthy Gulf War Veterans have Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, which includes sensitivity to fluoride. See: http://www.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/committee_documents/gwiandhealthofgwveterans_rac-gwvireport_2008.pdf 
1. EXCERPT: “It is well established that some people are more vulnerable to adverse effects of certain  chemicals than others, due to variability in biological processes that neutralize those chemicals, and clear them from the body.” - Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses 2008 
2. Affidavit of Dr. Hans Moolenburgh: https://fluorideinformationaustralia.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/affidavit-moolenburgh.pdf
1. Except: “As a summary of our research, we are now convinced that fluoridation of the water supplies causes a low grade intoxication of the whole population, with only the approximately 5% most sensitive persons showing acute symptoms.The whole population being subjected to low grade poisoning means that their immune systems are constantly overtaxed. With all the other poisonous influences in our environment, this can hasten health calamities.” 
3. PubMed Listed Studies on immune system response: 
1. a. Fluoride makes allergies worse, rats (1990): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1707853 
2. b. Fluoride makes allergies worse, in vitro (1999): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9892783
3. c. Immune system of the gut (2010): http://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2010/823710/ 
4. d. ASIA Syndrome, adjuvant impact (2011): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20708902
5. e. Gene predicts fluoride sensitivity (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25556215
6. f.  Brain has an immune system (2015): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26030524

AARP - STAND UP on our behalf! 

[rs5526]

So opponent's of fluoridation have legal rights to speak out against it. That is great. And so we do. The Cochrane review found no credible evidence that swallowing fluoride has any ability to affect dental caries. And how could it in the first place? Teeth enamel is a hard crystalline matrix of calcium phosphate and does not contain fluoride in it.

Sadly ablood fluoride is readily incorporated into bone and accumulates there where it dies not belong,, altering the crystal structure of bone and is essentially permanent since ithete is no biochemical mechanism designed to resorb it.

Again, these correct facts are fully legal for me to proclaim. OK? 

[rs5526]

But screaming fire in a crowded room when there is no fire, imagined or otherwise, is illegal. It is not protected by free speech rights.Those opposed to mandatory fluoridation of people against their will are not screaming any such thing and in fact are trying to protect the rights people are supposed to have to access fresh drinking water without added agents designed to treat human tissue (that do not work in the first place).

Claiming that opposing fluoridation is like screaming fire when there is no fire is an assertion that such opposing speech is illegal. it is not.  Whistleblowing is protected by first amendment free speech rights. This is the United States of America and in this country we are protected by the U.S. Constitution and have full rights of free speech on the issue of fluoridation of people against their free will.

Intimidation and threats of such protesters being illegal are unAmerican.

Protecting the rights of people to have access to clean fresh drinking water is also a right that is guaranteed by the United Nations. Forced fluoridation of populations en masse in cities is a violation of such rights and a violation of the prescription process since fluoride tablets cannot be prescribed in cities where water fluoride levels exceed 0.6 ppm and cannot be prescribed to children under three.  Fluoridated water promoters do not believe fluoride is a medicine and that these statements are irrelevant but that is false. The FDA ruled that fluoride added into water is an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug. Is the FDA screamilng fire and mongering fear by making this ruling? Of course not. if you want to change the policy of the FDA land the pescription process and regulations for pescribing fluoride for ingestion go ahead and talk to them. 

But until then I preach what the FDA rules.

[RandyJ913440]

Richard Sauerheber – If someone saw a glow in the theater and really believed there was a fire that was endangering them and others they would certainly be within their legal rights to scream Fire! – even though it was a false positive.  One of humanities most important survival skills is to pay very close attention to and avoid perceived risks – real, imagined or fabricated.

If someone actually believed they and others were in danger, how can you conclude that "screaming fire in a crowded room when there is no fire, imagined or otherwise, is illegal"? 

I am just stating the fact that fluoridation, like noticing cell phones glowing in dark public areas, is recognized by most individuals who understand modern science as safe – that is the definition of a consensus.  There are some, however, who believe there are dangers and yell Fire!

Fluoridation opponents are within their legal rights, protected by free speech, to promote their opinions - for example those by CarryAnne:

(08-22-2018 06:59 AM) “Willful blindness and financial benefit affect both organizations [ADA and EPA] and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt” and ”vested interests are doing their part to protect a profitable program that causes misery to millions” and ”Agnotology: Culturally induced ignorance or willful blindness, particularly the promotion of misleading scientific data and anecdotes by a biased group”

You also claim (08-19-2018 01:05 PM) that, “Most [dentists] are either ignorant or willfully blind. Others are either cowed into silence per my previous comments or are indeed sociopaths motivated by power, prestige and paychecks” 

(07-25-2018 11:30 PM) “the malignant medical myth of fluoridation persists because not only is there a profitable business model built on fluoridation, fluoridation promotion is profitable to many advocates”
(07-03-2018 07:35 AM) “I have it on good authority that they [American Thyroid Association] don't want to provoke a political storm with other groups - cowards.”

And comments To Dr. Johnson by Dr. Osmunson (07-09-2018 09:09 PM):

"CDC references the ADA and AAP,  and the ADA and AAP reference each other and the CDC.  Circular referencing."
"Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They do not protect the public.  They are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust."
"I do not call those organizations following the herd scientificlly credible, when it comes to fluoridation.  Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation."

"Joining the herd is much easier than spending the time to critically evaluate the science and stand on the science rather than endorsements/popular opinion."

Do you accept CarryAnne's and Dr. Osmunson's specific claims against the organizations they referenced and also, as I have asked them, against all members of the 100+ respected (except by anti-science activists) organizations and their representatives who have not publically embraced the anti-F opinions?

If you answer yes, explain how you can trust any science or health conclusion or procedures accepted by anyone in those organizations?  If all professionals who support community water fluoridation are mindless lemmings who are willfully or ignorantly blind when it comes to the issue of fluoridation – and are willfully or ignorantly subjecting their patients to the allegedly obvious and damaging harm from fluoridation, how on earth can they be trusted to make any beneficial decisions?

[CarryAnne]

“A wide variety of plants are sensitive to fluoride toxicity… Fluoride is an accumulative poison in plant foliage. Accumulation may be gradual over time… Avoid fluoridated water.” - in  “Fluorine Toxicity in Plants” (2018)

“fluoride concentration as low as 0.5 mg F-/l can adversely affect invertebrates and fishes, safe levels below this fluoride/l concentration are recommended in order to protect freshwater animals from fluoride pollution.”  - in "Fluoride toxicity to aquatic organisms: a review" (2003)

But the focus of this thread and the AARP is the adverse impact of fluoridation policy on Senior Health which includes the immorality of using municipal water supplies to dose the population with a substance which is known to be medically contraindicated for many with inflammatory, immune system, thyroid and kidney disease. 

Moreover, fluoride accumulates in bodies, brains and bones over time where it is known to cause or worsen conditions including arthritis, brittle bones, kidney disease and dementia. Baby boomers are the first generation that has been subjected to long term chronic low dose exposure. 

See today's press release that mentions 5 fluoride studies presented this month at an international conference of scientists addressing issues in environmental exposure and health. Those studies again validate the adverse health impact of low dose exposure to fluoride. The press release also includes a quote from Attorney Paul Beeber on the political manipulation of fluoridationists who attempt to influence decision makers with distraction. 

Click here to go to the first February 2015 comment and use PREVIOUS button in order to advance through the 60 comments from about 20 seniors prior to the troop of fluoride trolls trashing this forum with long off topic and frequently abusive comments. 

[RandyJ913440]

CarryAnne – I was about to submit the observations and questions below when you posted your most recent comment and opinions, “the focus of this thread and the AARP is the adverse impact of fluoridation policy on Senior Health which includes the immorality of using municipal water supplies to dose the population with a substance which is known to be medically contraindicated for many with inflammatory, immune system, thyroid and kidney disease.”  It is remarkable that you seem to believe your thread, the sole intent of which is to present unconfirmed speculations about the allegedly serious and obvious risks of harm from community water fluoridation (CWF), should somehow be immune to challenges from those who accept the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective. 

My goal is to expose your tactics of attempting to bypass the processes of scientific review and consensus to scare members of the public into joining your fear-based crusade.  Most readers of your propaganda will never read – and have not been trained to evaluate – the studies you select for your press releases and “lists of evidence” – but they will respond to fear.  The primary issue I continue to stress is why, if you have legitimate evidence to prove CWF is harmful &/or ineffective, fluoridation opponents (FOs) have been completely unable to change the scientific consensus. 

Even if I understood nothing of how to interpret and understand scientific studies, and I was unable to detect the manipulations of conclusions and other tactics employed by FOs, I would not accept your libelous accusations I challenged earlier (08-26-2018 05:47 PM) that the ADA and EPA and ATA and any members who don’t support the anti-F agenda are "greedy, ignorant, willfully blind, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths” , or Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim about the CDC, ADA and AAP, “All the so called "scientific" organizations were all pupets of each other with fluoridation.” 

Back to my original observations & questions:
If you have indeed answered my specific questions (08-21-2018 09:36 PM, 08-21-2018 02:47 PM, 08-21-2018 01:00 PM) as you claimed (08-26-2018 05:58 PM), then simply provide a date-time reference to each of your specific answers (for example, Q1 answered - 8/??/2018, Q2 - answered 8/??/2018, etc.), I’ll go look them up.  If they were in fact answered, I will apologize – and probably request additional clarification.  I have not “attacked [you] and every other opponent” on this thread or in any of the online comments you have posted.  I have simply pointed out that this thread was never intended to be an impartial discussion of the benefits and risks of community water fluoridation (CWF), quoted some of your comments, and requested that you explain them in the context of the scientific consensus and the majority of organizations and professionals who accept it. 

If you are accusing me of deleting a list of your citations after one of my challenges to James Reeves, your specific accusation, “Suppression of Science & Silencing of Dissent: Trolls are Treacherous ––– Within hours of the above challenging commentary [my comment to JR], I replied with the following eight citations, but the unscrupulous troop of fluoride trolls which seems to include the infamous vanity clum ‘American Fluoridation Society’ managed to delete it from that social media thread by tag team flagging it even more quickl.” is as false as your other complaints.  

 I certainly have never tried to have any of your comments removed from this or any comment page, and I suspect no other fluoridation supporter would either – there is no reason to.  It is far more effective to leave your comments intact, challenge your interpretations and conclusions, request clarification of what appear to be illogical statements – as I am doing here – and let others evaluate the legitimacy of your strongly presented opinions.  The fact is, the scientific and health communities have overwhelmingly dismissed your unsubstantiated claims.

You have a specific agenda of posting only the “evidence” you and other FOs believe support your agenda to “Demand AARP Take Action” and oppose CWF – a public health measure the scientific consensus accepts as safe and beneficial – one that the major national and international science and health organizations recognize as a safe and effective initiative to reduce dental decay, which can actually cause significant health problems, not to mention treatment costs.  

My agenda, and those of the other science-supporters, is to point out that tactics of anti-science activists (ASAs) –– trying to bypass the scientific review and consensus processes by influencing the public with fear-based attacks on the credibility of science –– are dangerous, not only for individual health and science-based initiatives, but they also generate an overall distrust of science and provide fodder for various conspiracy theories.  As Dr. Johnson stated (07-07-2018 03:39 PM), “I will be busy again for several days working to unscare communities where you and your groups have scared families with unsubstantiated claims.  It is more difficult to unscare people than it is to scare them.”

Listing dozens of studies in a public forum that you believe prove anti-F agenda legitimate is irrelevant – I can list hundreds of studies experts have used to establish and confirm the consensus that CWF is safe and effective.  I suspect few if any readers will read any of the abstracts, and even fewer will read or have the training and experience to understand the entire study.  That is precisely why, if FOs have any legitimate scientific evidence to support their opinions, they should take it up with those experts who can understand and evaluate it.  I understand why the “evidence” presented by FOs to date has been rejected as sufficient to change the scientific consensus.  Although I am not a relevant expert, I can recognize flaws and limitations of the studies FOs promote as “proving harm”. 

On the other hand, making the unsupported and libelous claims I highlighted on my previous post (the one you have allegedly answered?), where you accuses the ADA and EPA and ATA and any members who don’t support the anti-F agenda as "greedy, ignorant, willfully blind, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths” is not a scientific dialogue – it is fear-mongering – not to mention attacks on the professional integrity of thousands of health professionals. 

If you and other ASAs are able to convince the public that your agenda is valid, your mission is successful and you don’t have to experience the inconvenience (and with current “evidence”, impossibility) of convincing the scientific and health communities your opinions are legitimate – the public will respond (and has responded) to the fear of the alleged significant risks of possible Cancer, Lowered IQ, Diabetes, Hypothyroidism, GI Effects, Arthritis, Hypersensitivity, Kidney Disease, ADHD, Brittle Bones, etc., exercise their democratic privileges, and vote to end CWF – against the advice of the scientific and health communities.  The tactics of ASAs are akin to yelling FIRE! In a crowded theater when they see the glow from a cell phone – the Precautionary Principle according to ASAs. 

Q7) Another of my questions (08-21-2018 09:36 PM) I don’t remember you answering: ”By your ‘logic’ those who demand that drinking water chlorination be halted because chlorine has been used as an immoral chemical weapon (and creates a toxic brew of disinfection byproducts which have not been proven by randomized controlled trials to be completely safe) have a legitimate argument.  Do you believe that even if disinfection does help prevent diseases, disinfection policy is immoral mass poisoning because toxic chemicals are used and there may be health risks from overexposure to disinfection byproducts?? ”

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/chlorine-a-dangerous-addition-to-everyday-life/

https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/anti-chlorine-activists-hope-politics-will-trump-science

If both disinfection and fluoridation are implemented by adding known poisons (at sufficiently high exposure levels) to the water, and both are effective in protecting the health of citizens, why on earth does it matter whether one protective method strengthens and repairs dental enamel and the other poisons pathogens?  Does chlorine gas exposure or the ingestion of sodium hypochlorite and disinfection byproducts have any proven beneficial health effects?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

A side note: On (01-24-2017 04:35 PM) you claimed, “As part of the "better living through chemistry" model promoted by our government, we started fluoridating our water, generously spraying poisons on our food and in our neighborhoods, and pushing drugs starting with the polio vaccine that provided an income to the government. Today, the CDC holds 56 vaccine and adjuvant patents and therefore makes money on every administration of these drugs.”

With regard to your CDC patent accusation, read: CDC vaccine patents – Robert F Kennedy Jr. gets this one wrong too:

One of the reasons it is difficult to counter all the “Gish Gallop” accusations ASAs is that a single sentence and accusation can take nearly 3,000 words to adequately address and refute.  The article referenced below, which refutes your CDC accusation, concludes, “Whatever money the CDC gets from vaccine licenses is not used to line the hallways of the CDC with gold bars. It’s used to perform more research in more areas of diseases that kill too many people.”  FOs excel at adjusting, fabricating and presenting “facts” to fit their agenda.

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/cdc-vaccine-patents-robert-f-kennedy-jr-wron...

I contacted the EPA scientist union that FOs allege are “likewise opposed to fluoridation and the politically set EPA MCL/MCLG (08-22-2018 06:59 AM).”  In July 2017 I wrote Chapter 280 of the National Treasury Employees Union, the organization which FOs claim supported the anti-F agenda.  The response from the current Senior Vice President was clear, “We do not support a public position of fluoridation.”  Also, the entire union never signed off on the original statement – check your facts before posting.

https://www.in.gov/isdh/24525.htm

https://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/fluoride-cancer-quackery/

To quote Dr. Haynie, MD (06-27-2018 06:30 PM) ”If they wish to change positions on fluoridation, Dr. Limeback and others have an obligation to make their case before legitimate scientific forums and not simply bring arguments to lay audiences that have been rejected by experts.”

I showed several health professionals your specific charges outlined above and asked for their observations.  Their replies:

“The ADA is a professional organization governed by its member dentists.  Dentists direct and control the ADA, not the other way around, as you seem to believe.  Neither the ADA, nor its governing Board of Trustees would ever attempt to stifle the free speech of anyone, certainly including its member dental professionals.  If it did, not only does it have no power to “enforce” any such unconstitutional activity, it would likely result in widespread, mass resignation of its membership, which the ADA certainly does not desire, nor can afford. “ 

“There are no repercussions [for challenging ADA policy].  If you are practicing techniques outside of acceptable dental care, like claiming mercury issues and ripping out silver fillings to replace them with white fillings, then yes, you can be called out for not meeting the standard of care. That is typically under a state dental association’s purview. No believing in CWF? They might be approached by the state dental Association to try to educate them. But there are no repercussions. And you don’t lose your license”

“Claims like these promote the fairy tale that only dentists and the ADA understand CWF's benefits.   For reasons I don't entirely understand the anti's allegations of malfeasance and worse stick a bit to dentists in these public debates. But dentists are but a small sliver of the overwhelming professional and scientific consensus that CWF prevents cavities, is important and safe.  It is simply crackpottery to argue that fluoridation enjoys the favorable judgement of such a spectrum and number of legitimate professionals only because of social pressure from the fear of "loosing" ADA membership.”

[rs5526]

The enviorrmental effects of fluoridation are not limited to potential effects on salmon and other species of fish. The effect reminds me of what happened to avocado ranchers in Escondido after fluoridiaotn began there in 2005. The sodium content of the water surged past 100 ppm which causes saline intolerant avocado trees to developo leaf blight with dried leaves and low fruit production. I was criticized by fluoridation promoters who claimed it was not due to fluoridation becaue most of the total saline came from industries along the Colorado River and only a small fraction of hte toal was due to fluosilicic acid plus sodium hydroxide infusions required to neutralize the fluoridaiton chemicals. But these individuals failed to grasp that the last saline infusions that wre responsible for exceeding the tolerable limit for avocados of 100 ppm was the sodium from fluoridation. 

The effect was so substantial that farmers objected so strongly here locally that the Escondido water district had no choice but to respond. But instead of halting fluoridation (where the water district operator there actually believes fluoride is a food and is harmless at all times to everyone) the city decided to build a multi million dollar separate pipeline for the avocado orchards that is reverse osmosis treated to remove the saline (and fluoride). 

Tax;payers of course have to pay for all thiseven though the real solution  was to halt fluoridation wihcih doesn't reduce dental caries anyway. But no, the city went with the new constuirction to save the trees from saline blight.

The salmon industry in Sacrameno is a similar situation.  Many things contributed to the decline in salmon runs over the years including a large drought one year. But fluoridation remains and droughts come and go, all while salmon populations up the river itself remain far below normal. What does this all tell you?

If fluoridationists had their own way and argued to the EPA that fluoride discharges into rivers where salmon spawn have absolutely no effect on salmon migration or populations, then fluoridation may as well spread to all the cities along the Sacramento river where salmon spawn and all the tributaries and other rivers where salmon spawn as well.  All fluoridation of rivers and people of course though is abolutely useless.

If we are going to discuss good scientists vs bad scientists, let's talk about the Kumar data which were thought good enough to publish, and yet that data was a grossly misinterpreted to affect public policy for everyone in the country. The mean difference between fluorotic teeth and control teeth was not significantly outside experimental error. The claim that fluorotic teeth experience less dental decay is wrong and made no sense in the first place  since enamel hypoplasia is a more accurate term for it, where thinned enamel does not protect teeth dentin as well as normal. 

[rs5526]

I don't give up anything I have stated. None of the tributaries are fluoridated. Only the main stem is. And the salmon levels remain far below normal there and the river there remains fluoridated. And as stated before, it may be that salmon can adjust and imprint the chemical conditions that prevail and grow in number again. But why is this necessary in the first place? There are many contributors to salmon population reduction and fluoride is known to be one of them. And fluoridation of spawning  grounds continues in spite of salmon population problems that have occurred.

You believe what you want. And I believe fluoridation of the river is wrong. 

[sirpac271999]

Obviously there is no concern for the dental health of salmon. Thus, artificial fluoridation of the Sacramento river, or any other body of water, is truly about dumping of toxic industrial waste with the pretense that humans, salmon, or any other species have some negligible benefit. This is truly worse than ridiculous!

There is no science proving any benefit of ingesting industrial waste, such as fluorine compounds. These are labeled by law as “category 6 toxic industrial waste”. Just telling the masses, and some venally interested entities, that there is “some benefit” does not pass the evidential burden that speaks for itself, regardless of all the opinions and dilution of damage claims  by authoritative bodies.

Obviously the motto holds true that, “the solution to pollution is dilution”, and the masses serve as filters due to wide spread gullibility!  Again, all fluorides are toxic componds of fluorine (F) gas, not meant for consumption: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0046.html

[rs5526]

The EPA does not regulate community water fluoridation. The agency prevents cities from infusing fluoride to a level exceeding the MCL's--that's it. They do not monitor caries effects of water fluoridation and they take no responsiblilty or liability for any city that decides to fluoridate its people for assumed dental effect.

Likewise the EPA did not know beforehand that discharging fluoridated water into the Sacramento river, or any other river where salmon need to swim to spawn, would be totally harmless to fish. The EPA didn't even consider this concern before fluridation was allowed (not prohibited) by the agency. 

This mirrors what happened in 1945 when fluoridation was argued to be a success in decreasing dental caries, without considering what happened to the bones of residents. It was later found that the presence of thickened bones seen only on Xray examination by experts, increased in incidence in fluoridated consumers compared to non-fluoridated. And decay after several years when all tooth erupt is the same in control and F treated cities.

Fluoridation has been ongoing without proof of safety for 70 years now, all to the detriment of those who freely drink it. We now have an epidemic of hip fractures in the elderly with 1/3 million cases annually, and of hip, knee, and elbow replacement surgeries. And why would you expect anything else when 70% of U.S. water districts fluoridate the bones of their customers without permission? 

The EPA, CDC or anyone else did not prove that fluoridation of people would have no effects on brain or brain development either before the policy was instituted.  

The CDC now admits that systemic fluoride from the blood has no ablity to decrease dental decay. And topical fluoride from water at 0.7 ppm is 2,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste with no ability to decrease dental decay, and saliva fluoride which bathes teeth continuously at 0.016 ppm in a 1 ppm fluoridated city, 94,000 times less concentrated than in toothpaste, is also worthless. Fluoridated water is useless, harmful, illegal, and its promotion is a false policy. The problem is difficult to overcome becaue of false beliefs that are widespread, but neverthtless deserves to be overcome.

[rs5526]

We've already gone over this. There is no media report that blames the collapse on fluoride discharges that occurred prior to it. I made the claim, not the news media. The news once tried to claim that it is not the fluoridoatn of the water becasue the collapse occurred before fluoridaiotn, but htis is false. The south section of the city began fluoridating before the event that caused the complete collapse of the fishing industry on the river.  The public was not told about fluoridating until the rest of the city did so nearlya year later.

In the 1970's and 80's the salmon leaving the mainstream River routienly numbered 100,000. The number began to decline in 2007 because of, it is argued, a severe drought. This is probably ture among other factors as well. But notice that since Sacramento became fluoridated with a fluoridated water discharge pipe in the river, the number in the main stream has remained dismal until 2017, at or less than 10,000 per season. This is a 90% collapse of the fish that caused a 100% collapse in the fishing industry with loss of thousands of jobs.  This is reported in:  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586 but the authors do not know anything about fluoridation or when it began so it is not discussed of course.

We only have an incomplete view of what actually goes on because so many variables are in play, but the point is that it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon in the face of the Univ. of Oregon data, and flatly false to claim that fluoridation only happened after the complete collapse. And it is absurd to continue fluoridation of the river when the salmon industry has been so destroyed.

[DavidF928895]

Dr. Sauerheber,

Now you are down to, "it is ludicrous to claim that fluoridation discharges have zero effect on salmon," from your original claim that fluoridation was responsible for the collapse.  

You have a theory that effluent with some amount of fluoride in it (now it's) in part was responsible for this.  You have no idea what the average daily discharge is into the river.  You have no idea what the flow of the river is at the point of discharge.  You have no idea what the amount of fluoride is in the effluent, because it's never been measured.  This is important, fundamental data.  

You said that fluoridation began in 2010.  

Thank you for your link http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586  .  On it we see a bar graph which confirms what I already said.  Chinook salmon returns hit an all time low in 2009.  In 2010, the same year that fluoridation began, salmon abundance improved.  And, as I previously said, it improved until 2013.  Take a look at the bar graph.

You have no knowledge of even the most fundamental data required to make such an outrageous claim.  Moreover, historical trends of salmon runs completely debunk the idea.  

There is nothing left to be said about it.  

[rs5526]

I'm looking at the bar graph. There are there categories in each bar and the mainstream category of salmon returns is what was decimated and remained so all through the years reported, to 2017, just as I said.

The city of Sacramento fluoridates all water supplies to the city, not just some of the water. Just like all other cities that fluoridate, the wastewater contains the same concentration of fluoride as what was put into it at the fluoridation facililty. All discharged water from municipal pipes comes from comercial and residential users that is fully fluoridated. There is no other water source to dilute it. The 1 ppm fluuoridated waste water is discharged directly into the river because the sanitizing treatment is not able to remove fluoride. Fluoride ion is a sphere, the same size as a water molecule, and cannot be filtered.  I don't need to travel by boat to the discharge output point and take a sample of the discharge water to know that it is fluoridated. 

No one can say or has said that only fluoridation is entirely responsible for the full collapse of the salmon fishing industry in Sacramento, and that includes me. Fluoride discharges into the river where they spawn contributed its share to the collapse. It was the last obviously added contributor before the collapse became complete.  Fluoridation began many months before, not during or after, the discovered total collapse. My memory recalls the collapse being full and reported by fishermen and Pacific Fisheries and the news media in late 2010. The fluoridation of Sacramento had already begun many months prior to this, and if I recall in early 2010. The point is that fluoridation was ongoing prior to the reported full collapse.

Fluoridation is still ongoing and those who conduct it care less about the fact that salmon are adversely affected by low level fluoride in water and that Sacramento River salmon are abnormally reduced in number.  Fluoridation promoters appear so gravely concerned about caries reduction that documented effects on human bone (and any effects the discharged wastewater may have on  salmon popoulations) are not a concern.

But eating and drinking fluoride in any amount do not lead to lowered incidence of caries, and adverse effects on human health as well as environmental issues for the treated wastewater are indeed the concern. Fluoridation is unnecessary, harmful, and must be halted.

[DavidF928895]

Richard, your quote:  "I'm looking at the bar graph. There are there categories in each bar and the mainstream category of salmon returns is what was decimated and remained so all through the years reported, to 2017, just as I said."

Response:  http://calsport.org/fisheriesblog/?p=1586%C2%A0

The Bar Graph is entitled "Figure 1."  There are three categories in each bar.  1.)  Hatcheries, 2.) Mainstem (not mainstream), and 3.) Tributaries.  

All three categories showed improvement after 2009.  I invite all readers of this thread to look at the graph and judge this for themselves.  

You said water fluoridation began in 2010. You also said water fluoridation was responsible for the collapse of the salmon industry in the Sacramento River.  The evidence does not support your outrageous theory.  There is no evidence for it.  Indeed, the evidence debunks your claims. 

Give it up, Richard.  You are embarrassing yourself.  You call yourself a scientist, yet you are unable to accept empirical evidence, the foundation of all science, when it disagrees with your agenda.   

[rs5526]

Excuse me? I explained the truth, which is beng ignored by fluoridation promoters. 1 ppm fluoricated water lifetime causes bone fluoride to accumulate  to thousands of mg/kg in bone, higher than in fluoridated toothpaste, where it does not belong and where it alters the crystal structure of bone. The NRC data proved that levels above this increase hip fractures compared to the incidence at 1 ppm. This does not translate into the idea that no increased fractures occur at 1 ppm. Thatl is absurd. The NRC did not look at exposures less than 1 ppm. So the clakin that Dr. Osmunson is somehow flawed is incorrect.

[rs5526]

I see a report from a salmon fishing tour boat company that now after 8 years since the collapse salmon appear to be increasing in number. But how much of this is advertising to attract more customers I don't know. It is not a scientific assessment but let's hope it is real. This is in the Red Bluff area which is north of Sacramento. So this is good news but again it is possible, as stated before, that those salmon that could spawn in water at levels between 0.2 and 1 ppm (due to fluoridated water discharges) could imprint at this newer set point to be able to return to that water again later..

This does not detract from the claim that fluoride discharges were a final straw that completed the approximately 90% collapse in the first place that the news media reported which caused salmon fishing industries to shut down.

[DavidF928895]

RS:  "This does not detract from the claim that fluoride discharges were a final straw that completed the approximately 90% collapse in the first place that the news media reported which caused salmon fishing industries to shut down."

Response:  Please provide a link to a news media report which stated this.

[rs5526]

The returning salmon population in the Central Valley, CA declined to the lowest level in recorded history at merely 60,000 total returns in 2010.  The construction of dams, increased urbanization, plus possible pollution from pesticides are all believed to have been progressively lowering the population until then. Fluoride discharges were another final contribution. In the Sacramento River specifically, which is separate from all the other rivers in the central valley where fluoride discharges are not conducted, the collapse was described in public news sources as essentially complete. The difference between a complete collapse and a huge collapse I attribute to the fluoride discharges.

Disagreement on this cannot come from the fact that there are no measured fluoride levels near the discharge point source because anhyone whol clailms the discharges did not affect salmon wold have the same problem. Prove it by measuring the levels at the discharge point to demonstrate that salmon were not exposed to higher fluoride levels than the 0.2 ppm anywhere in the river where they had to migrate.   Since no such data is available to anyone, logic dictates that the dischages which are significant at the source sealed the collapse to its low level becasue salmon imprinting is so exaquisitelty sensitive. The number of salmon returning to the Sacramento across the discharge zone is not returning to normal as I have ever seen reported. The other rivers in the Central Valley do not have a fluoridated water discharge zone and do not change the argument simply becaue their returns are increasing..

And I am not posting here to discuss fluoridation. I am here to refute false claims about it and to explain what it actually is, a bone fluoridaiton program that does not decrease dental decay and that is a violation of Federal wate law. Nothing needs to be discussed. For example read the Journal of Environmental and Public Health 439490 2013 for a description of what it is and the laws it violates.

[DavidF928895]

RS, your quote:  "Disagreement on this cannot come from the fact that there are no measured fluoride levels near the discharge point source because anhyone whol clailms the discharges did not affect salmon wold have the same problem. Prove it by measuring the levels at the discharge point to demonstrate that salmon were not exposed to higher fluoride levels than the 0.2 ppm anywhere in the river where they had to migrate."

Response:  We can prove it by using the same simple math formula that Mr. Joe Carroll used to prove that salmon were not affected in the Columbia River by effluent discharge.  https://ilikemyteeth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Water-Expert-Letter-Fish-Impact-2005.pdf

You made the claim.  It's up to you to prove it.  You are posting under a thread entitled "Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action."  You are posting here to press any possible argument which might convince the AARP to support your fringe position on water fluoridaton.  Since you refuse to prove it by using a simple math formula, you must already know that the math does not support your argument.  

To your second comment regarding the 2006 NRC, you agree with me.  Your quote:  "The NRC committee was not tasked with assessing community water fluoridation, for either  effectiveness or for safety."

Therefore, when Dr. Bill cites a "Position Statement" against water fluoridation from the iaomt which cites a passage from the 2006 NRC, which you just said was not "tasked with assessing CWF, and that passage stated that "under certain circumstances" bone fractures may occur . . .

And those "circumstances" consisted of drinking water at over 5 ½ times the optimal level for a lifetime.   It is more likely to cause these problems in the population than drinking water with 1 ppm F, (which is also over the optimal level) over the course of a lifetime. 

Your lengthy meandering comment could have easily made the point that, yes, the iaomt Position Statement was indeed deceptive by citing irrelevant and misleading facts regarding water fluoridation in its statement against this health initiative.  The NRC never said that drinking optimally fluoridated water would enhance the likelihood of bone fractures.  

Dr. Bill has presented a misleading statement in his efforts to sway the reader, and he has called it good science.  

[CarryAnne]

"The finding supports the epidemiological results that water fluoridation might be responsible for the increasing rate of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women.”  - Kakei et al. (2016)

 “Existing data indicate that subsets of the population may be unusually susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride and its compounds. These populations include the elderly, people with deficiencies of calcium, magnesium, and/or vitamin C, and people with cardiovascular and kidney problems… Post menopausal women and elderly men in fluoridated communities may also be at risk of fractures.” - U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in “Toxicological Profile on Fluoride” (1993)

Position Papers are reasoned opinions and much more disciplined than political endorsements of policy. The IAOMT 2017 Position Paper Against Fluoride Use with over 500 citations can be downloaded from their webpage. The 2011 LULAC Resolution against fluoridation is based on evidence of disproportionate harm to Latinos and human rights. They are just two of the professional organizatons opposed to fluoridation based on evidence and representative of thousands of doctors, dentists, lawyers, and other professionals who have done their due diligence. 

Scientific evidence of harm to senior citizens includes 21st century studies documenting fluoride as causing or worsening kidney disease, brittle arthritic bones, heart disease and dementia, many published this decade. This information is verifiable and validated. It cannot be disappeared by long-winded rhetorical attacks by fluoride advocates.  

Dr. Bill Osmunson on this forum is one of thousands of  doctors and dentists who formerly endorsed fluoridation who changed their minds based on evidence. Although many still follow the bullet points prepared by marketing gurus and fervant advocacy groups, thyroid and kidney doctors especially advise their patients to avoid fluoride. Many seniors, such as myself and about 30 others who have particiapted on this AARP forum, testify that our health improves when we avoid fluoride; these are not anecdotes, it is our medical testimony. Consequently, there is no consensus of benefit and substantial evidence and opinion upon which AARP can base a resolution opposing fluoridation as an immoral medication of vulnerable populations who include senior citizens harmed by fluoride consumption. 

[rs5526]

The NRC committee was not tasked with assessing community water fluoridation, for either  effectiveness or for safety. They were tasked with examining evidence of harm at levels of fluoride that occur naturally (which can range far above fluoridation levels of 1 ppm).There are data in the report for effects at 1 ppm, but again water fluoridation was not specifically assessed. 

The statement that 4 ppm fluoride in water causes increased bone fractures is true, but water fluoridation is limited to 1 ppm. The data the NRC used were from non-fluoridated cities with natural fluoride levels above 1 ppm. Natural fluoride is always accompanied with abundant calcium and magnesium from salts other than fluoride salts in the water, which minimize assimilation of fluoride. Industrial fluoridation does not have this protection and is a different situation, especially in soft water cities and, again, the NRC was not permitted to evaluate community water fluoridation.  There are bone weakening effects at 1 ppm by extrapolation, where the incidence progressively increases above this level. There were no populations examined at fluoride levels near zero to compare with the 1 ppm group and the NRC was not charged to examine health effects below 1 ppm.   

The EPA does not regulate community water fluoridation. The EPA does not monitor caries incidence in fluoridated cities and instead informs people not to drink water at contaminant fluoride levels of 2 - 4 ppm because lifelong this would cause serious harm. No assessment by the EPA has been made for 1 ppm fluoridated water on health or on effectivess in affecting dental caries because the EPA has no interest in regulating community water fluoridation, as stated before. That is the job of the FDA.

Many people do not ever develop dental caries their entire lives. And yet fluoridation promoters force fluoridation of public water supplies to treat all people in a region. This is against medical ethics. Recent data indicate that aspirin does not reduce incidence of heart disease in patients who have no history of heart disesase (while it does reduce incidence in those who do have such a history). Are we to force aspirin on the entire population when only a subset benefits? Of course not.

Community water fluoridation is like this only even less ethical. If some were to experience reduced caries, that would be an argument to treat some (but not all) people in a population. But the bizarre thing is there are no controlled human clinical trials that have ever proved that eating/drinking fluoride ion reduces dental caries. In fact, the vast data we have from observational studies indicates eating/drinking fluoride has no effect on caries at all (Teotia; Ziegelbecker;Yamouyiannis, etc.)

Ironically, the data in the NRC report at 1 ppm do indicate harm especially in iodine deficient or calcium deficient people and in diabetics, etc.  But the Doull claim, made seven years later from memory, bypasses this and does not consider the data that at the time strongly suggested adverse effecfs of blood fluoride on brain. These effects are now more substantiated, while the Doull statement implies that this has been considered fully, when the NRC report most certainly did not. The notion was left as a possibility and was certainly never disproven to justify a claim such as Doull made. He did not do the reasearch in all the investigated areas the NRC discussed and is not in a positon to claim no adverse effects of fluoridation on anyone after lifelong consumption of intentionally fluoridated water. The NRC was not charged with investigating community water fluoridation.   

[DavidF928895]

Dr. Sauerheber, I am glad to see that you have rejoined the conversation.  

Before I switch issues with you, let's clarify one thing.  You stated that the Salmon industry was destroyed in the Sacramento River in 2010 when water fluoridation began in South Sacramento.  

That's not true is it.  We have seen that the salmon collapse hit an all time low in 2009, and in 2010, the same year that water fluoridation began, the salmon return began to improve, until 2013, when it began to decline again.  Therefore, water fluoridation had nothing to do with declining salmon numbers in Sacramento, did it.  

Moreover, for the record, you had no knowledge of what the average daily discharge of effluent was into that river, you had no knowledge of the volume of river flow at the point of effluent discharge, and fluoride levels had never actually been measured in effluent discharge.  In short, you made a statement with no data to support your theory, other than the fact that you said the river was narrow enough to throw a stone across it, and that was good enough for your kind of science.

Will you now admit that you were wrong about the whole thing?  That since salmon returns increased and improved when fluoridation began, your theory was based on little more than your personal hope that it was true?

[CarryAnne]

“People tend to think that it’s settled: But when we looked at the studies that have been done, we found that many of these questions are unsettled and we have much less information than we should, considering how long this [water fluoridation] has been going on.” - Dr. John Doull, chairman of 2006 NRC on Fluoride in Drinking Water (in Scientific American, 2008) 

“The thyroid changes do worry me.” - Dr. John Doull, chairman of 2006 NRC on Fluoride in Drinking Water (in Scientific American, 2008)  

John Doull made his later comment in response to a political request from the project leader who has made a career out of promoting fluoridation and another fluoridationist whose paycheck was likewise attached to promoting fluoridation who were attempting to do damage control. 

As to the political manipulation of the 2006 NRC, I suggest reading the following by a career EPA scientist: 

Carton RJ. Review of the 2006 United States National Research Council Report: Fluoride in Drinking Water. Fluoride 39(3)163–172. July-September 2006 

[DavidF928895]

Thank you for your input, Carry Anne.  It is always appreciated.

Since you feel that Dr. Doull's comment was taken out of context, any readers of this thread may freely judge for themselves the meaning and the context of this comment which you have questioned.  Again, here is the comment:  

""I do not believe there is any valid scientific reason for fearing adverse health conditions from the consumption of water fluoridated at the optimal level."

Again, the full context of his comment may be viewed here.  https://ilikemyteeth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Doull-Email-on-CWF-March-2013.pdf

Readers of this thread may judge for themselves the context of the comment from Dr. Doull which I have provided.  May we see the comments which you have provided from Dr. Doull in their full context so that we may judge for ourselves if those comments are a reflection of his actual views regarding water fluoridation?

I mean, when we follow your link, we see a biased opinion piece which does indeed quote Dr. Doull, but there is no context for his remarks.  

[CarryAnne]

I have answered Randy's questions in this AARP thread and on my own local newspaper where the 'rapid response' pro-fluoride team which includes Randy who lives 2,000 miles away  attacked me and every other opponent, just as they do on small town papers from California to Maine. The same small team swarmed  this AARP thread on June 27, 2018. Click here to go to my original comment and use PREVIOUS to advance chronologically. 

Below is one example of what happens when people respond to the fluoride lobbyists' questions online: 

[rs5526]

It is claimed in the Kumar study that the data prove fluorotic teeth have fewer caries. The mean incidences in the two groups however did not differ by more than observational error, where the standard deviations substantially overlap between groups. The conclusion is false anyway as indicated in the vast data published by teotia and also by ziegelbecker and also by yiamouyiannis, all showing that as water fluoride consumption imcreases, dental fluorosis increases and dental caries are not reduced. The ziegelbecker study included populations exposed to F even as high as  6 ppm, all with no decreases in caries incidence.

Fluorotic teeth have deficient enamel which functions to protect underlying dentin. 

[rs5526]

The background level of fluoride in the Sacramento River is 0.2 ppm. This is well published in district water quality reports as required for the public by the SDWA. Fluoridation began in 2010 at 1 ppm before the city would lower it to the HHS requested level of 0.7 ppm.  And 0.7 is greater than 0.3 and 0.5 ppm anyway.

Corrosion inhibiters are most certainly added to prevent contamination of water from corroded metal ions from the deliivery infrastructure. Fluroide has no such action and in fact fluosilicic acid  produces silicic acid that leeches lead from fixtures that contain oxidized lead salts.

The EPA Office of Water does not regulate water fluoridation and has written to me and many others this fact. This is because they have no staff or authority to monitor its effectiveness and they are there to help minimize serious health effects from fluoride contamination of water. This is why the MCL and SMCL are 4 and 2 ppm. These are not intended to allow water disticts to go ahead and "fill er up" with added fluoride on purpose. These are level at which warnings are posted not to drink the water because known serious heatlh consequences would result if it were continuously consumed at these levels.

The EPA does not regulate 1 ppm fluoridated public water and does not advocate consumption of  fluoride and does not guarantee that tooth decay will be reduced by doing so. The EPA has nothing to do with dental care and has correctly wriltten that the FDA is responsible for ingestible fluorides..(and the FDA has banned the sale of all fluoride compoudns intended for ingestion by pregnant women in the U.S. and ruiled that fluoride added into water is an uncontrolled use of an unapproved drug and asserts that the EPA should regulate fluoridation because it is the addiition of a known water contaminant into public water supplies).

The rest of the attacks listed are too ridiculuouos to address here.

[DavidF928895]

RS, your quote:  “The rest of the attacks listed are too ridiculuouos to address here.”

Response:  That’s rich.  I ask you relevant things concerning your claim like, ‘What is the flow of the Sacramento River at the point of effluent discharge?’ ‘What is the average daily discharge of effluent we are talking about?’ ‘Has anyone ever measured the fluoride level in this effluent discharge which you claim is 1 ppm . . even though I have pointed out factors which would have reduced that number?’

If you consider these important questions “attacks,” then fluoride in your drinking water is the least of your problems.  You’re not a scientist if you dig your heels in so deep to a belief that you are unwilling, and indeed don’t even find it necessary, to ask and research the fundamental questions underlying any problem. 

Your approach to science seems to be, 'It's true because I said it.  We don't need facts, data, or relevant information.'

The SDWA does not forbid the fluoride additive in drinking water, if that is what you are implying.  You’ve shown us nothing which supports that idea. 

Your quote:  “Fluoridation began in 2010 at 1 ppm before the city would lower it to the HHS requested level of 0.7 ppm.”

Response:  I find that interesting because historical trends of salmon populations hit an all-time low in 2009, showed improvement in 2010 and that improvement of salmon population continued into 2013 when another downward trend began.   http://caltrout.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/CENTRAL_VALLEY_FALL_RUN_CHINOOK_final.pdf

So if fluoridation began in 2010, and salmon population showed an improvement in that year, your theory falls flat on its face. 

Give it up, Dr. Sauerheber.  A real scientist isn’t afraid to admit when he is wrong.    

[CarryAnne]

Astroturfers and social media trolls overwhelm online conversations with comments that emphasize denigrating opponents, dismissing ethics, denying science and distracting the conversation away from the topic at hand in order to advance their agenda. 

Fluoridation is an immoral medical mandate that forces contaminated product into bodies of convenient consumers regardless of impact on individuals in vulnerable populations who include senior citizens and many with inflammatory, immune system, thyroid or kidney disease. Substantial modern science also validates that fluoride consumption contributes to  learning disabilities in children and to dementia, brittle bones, diabetes and kidney disease in seniors. And yes, fluoridation policy also damages the environment. Click here to see a dozen references to those environmental harm items alread posted on this forum thread. 

To read three years of comments in support of an AARP resolution against fluoridation many with hyperlinks to modern science that were posted before the fluoride lobbyists descended on this thread in June, click here and then use the PREVIOUS button to flip through the pages. 

[RandyJ913440]

CarryAnne – You still have not answered my questions.  You simply provided more quotes (personal opinions) from “dozens of individual doctors, dentists and scientists who have studied emerging scientific data and changed their minds” and claimed (personal anecdotes) that, “many more [doctors, dentists and scientists]… admit that they know fluoridation is ineffective and harmful to some consumers but they won't speak publicly because of fear of retaliation from abusive fluoride trolls, their rabidly pro-fluoride peers, and even their patients.” (08-22-2018 06:59 AM)

Wow, you are claiming these doctors, dentists and scientists actually have credible proof that “fluoridation is ineffective and harmful” (scientific evidence &/or evidence from their own practices), and yet they choose not to publically speak out and try to change the scientific consensus?  Those are serious accusations that these health professionals are failing to uphold their professional and moral responsibilities.

You stated (07-07-2018 04:49 PM), “This thread was begun to share both personal stories  [anecdotes] and modern scientific evidence of harm from fluoridation policy in order to collect data for AARP” and (07-20-2018 10:02 AM) “This thread is supposed to facilitate  discussion among seniors who have found fluoridation causes illness or worsens their health” and you “Demand AARP Take Action” and (08-10-2018 10:13 AM) “advocate for its constituency and craft a policy statement opposed to fluoridation, which is [in your opinion] mass medication using municipal water”.  It is obvious that you have no interest in an impartial, rational discussion of the scientifically established benefits and risks of fluoridation.

Challenging the prevailing scientific consensus is one of the foundations of the scientific method.  The only way science has progressed over the last few hundred years is by adjusting (sometimes reversing) the consensus of the relevant scientific communities as new, legitimate, reproducible evidence is discovered and evaluated.  Yes, individual personal biases and sinister motives are possible, and they can influence the way evidence is interpreted.  These all too human traits are precisely why the consensus of relevant experts is critical to science – to identify conclusions based primarily on personal (or group) biases, greed, etc. and enable evidence-based decisions to be made.

However, you still have not provided a rational explanation of why, if fluoridation opponents (FOs) actually have legitimate scientific evidence to support their claims of harm, the scientific consensus that fluoridation is a safe and effective public health measure has not changed in over 70 years.

By scientific consensus, I mean that the majority of relevant experts in a given scientific field agree on the interpretation of the available body of evidence.  The fact that the hundreds of thousand members of over 100 nationally and internationally recognized science and health organizations have not rebelled over the last 70+ years of community water fluoridation (CWF) while those organizations publically recognize the benefits of CWF, is a clear example of a scientific consensus.

In contrast, you listed a group of 13 alternate health, environmental, spiritual and cultural organizations (06-28-2018 07:32 AM) that oppose CWF.  That is only a demonstration of the fact that there are always minority opinions whose proponents have been unsuccessful at providing credible scientific evidence to change the majority consensus.

Apparently I need to be more specific in my questions about what you believe constitutes the scientific consensus:

Q1)  Do you accept the fact that the support of CWF by virtually all nationally and internationally recognized science and health organizations constitutes the scientific consensus that fluoridation is safe and effective?
YES or NO

Q1A) If your response is NO, then answer the following questions:

1. You claimed (08-21-2018 01:14 PM) “Consensus is a political construct that validates there are no substantial objections. There is and has always been substantial scientific objections to fluoridation. Therefore, there is not now nor has ever been any consensus of safety.  If your claim has any validity whatever, explain and document exactly how this “political construct” has caused virtually all the major science and health organizations to reject what FOs consider to be legitimate evidence and continue to support CWF?  There are always objections to any scientific consensus – that is how scientific knowledge and theories evolve.  It is the responsibility of those who hold those outlier beliefs to prove their claims with legitimate, conclusive, reproducible evidence.
2. Explain what you believe the scientific consensus in regard to fluoridation actually is and how it is different from the consensus for other science and health issues. Or if you, like some other FOs, don’t believe the scientific consensus is real or relevant to all specific areas of science and evidence-based health care, then explain exactly the processes the minority of science/health trained FOs employ to determine what constitutes legitimate scientific evidence and how it should be interpreted.  From the anti-F comments and “evidence” provided, it seems as though only those studies that fit (or can be ‘adjusted’ to fit) a pre-determined fixed-belief are considered valid.  As I noted earlier (08-21-2018 09:36 PM), all “evidence” provided by FOs to date has relatively easily recognized and described flaws.
3. Do you recognize as valid any of the health conclusions and recommendations that are supported by the same organizations that accept scientific consensus that CWF is safe and effective? If their members are not able to correctly evaluate the evidence (published and their personal experiences) regarding fluoridation, how can they be trusted to formulate any legitimate conclusions about any aspect of health care?

Q1B) If your response is YES, then answer the following questions:

1. Is there a difference is between the scientific consensus on CWF and the scientific consensus of relevant experts that supports vaccines, drinking water disinfection, and other public health measures – or any health initiative, for that matter?  If so, how does it differ?
2. Explain why you accept any health conclusions supported by the mainstream stream CWF-supporting organizations if they have been so inept, ignorant and willfully blind as to support fluoridation (and vaccination, according to other comments). For any evidence-based health care recommendation or procedure, there will be conflicting evidence. But how can the relevant professionals come to any reliable, trustworthy conclusions on anything if they have interpreted the body of evidence on fluoridation completely wrong by concluding CWF is safe and effective when the body of evidence (according to FOs) proves it is ineffective and significantly harmful.
3. Explain why anti-F activists spend immense amounts of time and resources trying to scare the public into accepting their minority position. Instead, why don’t FOs use those resources to try and convince the scientific community their interpretations of the evidence is legitimate?  If legitimate, reproducible evidence is presented, the consensus will change – that is how science evolves.  So far, that has not happened.
4. Explain why anti-F activists don’t use their resources to conduct high quality, unbiased research which will provide the evidence necessary to change the current consensus of experts. Even though I am not a dental or medical expert, I am a scientist familiar with conducting and interpreting research, and I can understand the reasons the studies presented by FOs so far have not been sufficient to change the CWF consensus.
   To quote Dr. Haynie, MD (06-27-2018 06:30 PM) ”If [anti-science activists] wish to change positions on fluoridation, Dr. Limeback and others have an obligation to make their case before legitimate scientific forums and not simply bring arguments to lay audiences that have been rejected by experts.”

JoeM (‎07-12-2018 04:30 PM) provided an excellent description of the scientific consensus, “What was obvious is that there are an enormous number of relevant studies out there - I think the York Review identified over 3000 as far back as 2000. In such a situation we have to rely on a synthesis of all the evidence by competent experts rather than selecting bits and pieces of individual studies. This has been carried out now on many occasions in many countries. Thus, I accept this consensus.”

Q2A) Do you accept Dr. Osmunson’s 07-09-2018 09:09 PM claim about the CDC, ADA and AAP, “All the so called "scientific" organizations were all pupets of each other with fluoridation.”? 
Q2B) How about the rest of the 100+ organizations that recognize the benefits of CWF – do you believe they are all, “so called ‘scientific’ organizations [that] do not protect the public.  They are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists“ as well?

Q3A) On an important, related subject, (03-14-2017 06:49 PM ) you claim “Medical Mandates, whether finagled with financial incentives to fluoridate a community or legislated with punitive actions against any parent who chooses not to follow a vaccination schedule are dangerous to our health and our freedom.”  Since you have gone out of your way to bring vaccination into the fluoridation conversation, do you also believe vaccination policies (to use your 08-24-2018 10:07 AM language) are also “an immoral medical mandate that forces contaminated product into bodies of convenient consumers regardless of impact on individuals in vulnerable populations who include senior citizens”?

Q3B) Do you believe the overall benefits to citizens of vaccines for flu, polio, MMR, DTP, chicken pox, shingles (for elders), etc. outweigh the risks, or are you planning to Demand that AARP Take Action and Ban Vaccinations?  If everyone accepted the fear-mongering propaganda of the anti-vaccination activists (remarkably similar to the anti-F propaganda, search on -- Mercola vaccines -- for example) and chose to avoid vaccinations, what do you believe the consequences would be – a more healthy population?

Q4A) You have not addressed my 08-21-2018 01:00 PM correction to your blatant misrepresentation of the precautionary principle; “Your frogs in a pot cartoon misrepresents the precautionary principle which is legitimately used in situations where the risks and benefits are not yet clearly understood.  In the case of community water fluoridation, the burden of proof that the public health measure is safe and effective has been met for 70  years.”  A legitimate cartoon representing the precautionary principle would not show the two frogs already in an obviously dangerous pot of uncontrollably heating water --- that is stupidity, not science, and it is precisely how FOs portray mainstream science and scientists.  I have not yet had time to draw one, but an accurate cartoon would depict the frogs in lab coats [a requirement for science cartoons] who are considering a tub of water they just encountered and measured to be at a comfortable temperature (for a frog).  At that point, they would not know what chemicals might be in the water, what was controlling the temperature, whether the temperature would rise, fall or stay the same, etc.  The cartoon would show them discussing various parameters to measure and processes to resolve the unknowns before determining the benefits vs. the risks.  That is an unknown situation where the precautionary principle is legitimately employed.  After thorough testing by the frogs and by a number of other frog scientists that reliably determined the water was chemically safe, the temperature remained constant, there were health benefits to soaking in the warm water and no negative health issues were observed,  a consensus was established that the benefits to soaking in the tub (as studied) outweighed any risks.
Q4B) You also did not provide an answer to my question, “If your claim ‘The evidence of harm caused by fluoridation is substantial and definitive’ is even remotely valid, how can you possibly explain the fact, which has been brought up and ignored by FOs  numerous times, that all of the major science and health organizations continue to publically recognize the scientific consensus that community water fluoridation is safe and effective and that there are no such organizations that support the anti-F agenda.” --- except, of course, by claiming all professionals who don’t publically oppose fluoridation are, “greedy, ignorant, willfully blind, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths”, as claimed in your comments below, which appear to illustrate your disdain for mainstream scientists, health professionals and their professional organizations.

Before I comment further, I would like to make certain I understand exactly what you mean by your claims from several comments:

On (08-22-2018 06:59 AM) you claim, “Willful blindness and financial benefit [greed] affect both organizations [ADA and EPA] and individuals and are eminently rational rationales for refusal to change, although also morally corrupt” and ”vested interests are doing their part to protect a profitable program that causes misery to millions” and ”Agnotology: Culturally induced ignorance or willful blindness, particularly the promotion of misleading scientific data and anecdotes by a biased group”

You also claim (08-19-2018 01:05 PM) that, “Most [dentists] are either ignorant or willfully blind. Others are either cowed into silence per my previous comments or are indeed sociopaths motivated by power, prestige and paychecks”

You also claim (07-25-2018 11:30 PM) that. “the malignant medical myth of fluoridation persists because not only is there a profitable business model built on fluoridation, fluoridation promotion is profitable to many advocates”
You also claim 07-03-2018 07:35 AM),  “I have it on good authority that they [American Thyroid Association] don't want to provoke a political storm with other groups - cowards.”

Q5) Are these comments an accurate representation of your opinion of the ADA, EPA and ATA and any members who do not publically support the anti-F demands?

Q6) Do you also extend your accusations of ADA and EPA and ATA members as "greedy, ignorant, willfully blind, morally corrupt, cowards &/or sociopaths" to the hundreds of thousands of professionals who are members of all the other science and health care organizations that continue to recognize the benefits of CWF and have not publically denounced CWF?  Or do you have another explanation for why those professional health care providers choose to remain silent – or publically support the practice?  As noted, according to your opinion (08-21-2018 06:38 AM), "The evidence of harm caused by fluoridation is substantial and definitive" and so millions of patients worldwide who drink optimally fluoridated water obviously must be suffering the misery of Cancer, Lowered IQ, Diabetes, Hypothyroidism, GI Effects, Arthritis, Hypersensitivity, Kidney Disease, ADHD, Brittle Bones, etc. –– yet they do not speak out.  If you are correct, we are all in serious trouble as these greedy, ignorant, willfully blind, morally corrupt, cowardly &/or sociopathic health professionals continue to practice.

I believe the only rational explanation to explain the fact that the major science and health organizations continue to publically recognize the benefits of CWF is that a significant majority of their members have actually evaluated the risks and benefits of CWF, have seen the positive consequences of fluoridation (and negligible evidence of the alleged negative consequences) in their practices and accepted the legitimacy of the scientific consensus that the benefits of CWF are far greater than any alleged risks.

[BillO538145]

Randy,

The title here is "Scientific Consensus; however, your comments are about "Endorsement Consensus."  

Please provide the names and internet links to the top three organizations' position papers on fluoridation.   No.  Why don't you send me links to at least one of the position papers of organizations who endorse fluoriation and lets see the primary research to support fluoridation.

Randy, relying on these organizations for endorsements is quite different than relying on them for quality position papers referenced with primary research.  

Yes, like a bunch of lemmings, they all have faith in each other, but not the facts to support fluoridation.

Compare the lack of primary research and lack of scientific position papers by promoters of fluoride to the IAOMT position paper and you will see the huge difference.  https://iaomt.org/iaomt-fluoride-position-paper-2/

Concensus is not scientific evidence.    I request  facts, primary research, not estimates based on assumptions as so much of fluoridation is based on.  

Give us some primary evidence on total exposure, desired total fluoride intake, optimal fluoride tooth concentrations, measured cost benefit for the population at large, and safety studies.

With 60% of adolescents having dental fluorosis, 20% moderate/severe, many are ingesting too much.  Certainly you would agree, like the NRC 2006 report, that severe dental fluorosis is an adverse health risk.  

My concern is that we are way past too much fluoride exposure for most fetuses, infants, children and adults.

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH