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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 521 of 872

Dr. Bill, either admit that you were not telling the truth or provide evidence of what you said so that we may move on.

 

To recap:  

After I stated, factually, that there is not one reputable scientific or health organization which opposes water fluoridation, you provided a list of countries which do not fluoridate their water, and of course, countries are not reputable scientific organizations. 

 

In defense of your list, you said, “Each of the countries I listed have agencies which determine whether a substance is effective and safe at a specific dosage.  They have looked and evaluated the science and primary evidence and rejected fluoridation.”  End quote.  07-27-2018 11:56 AM 

 

In response to that, I asked you:  “Then you will be kind enough to provide links to the Danish, Norwegian, and Finnish government peer-reviewed studies which find that optimally fluoridated water is harmful.”   ‎07-27-2018 02:48 PM

 

I also asked you for the Hungarian government agency’s peer-reviewed study that found optimally fluoridated water harmful.  All these countries were included in your list. 

 

AGAIN: You said, as a statement of FACT, that all of these countries who do not fluoridate their water have scientific agencies who "have looked and evaluated the science and primary evidence and rejected fluoridation.”  

 

Well do they or don't they?  If you say they do, you must be aware of these alleged studies conducted by these alleged scientific agencies.  Therefore, it shouldn't be that hard to provide links to these allegted studies which you claim exist.  

 

I'm not asking you to do my homework.  I'm asking you to do your own homework.  It's your story.  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 522 of 872

David,

 

You make no sense.  

 

You promote, support, additional fluoride exposure and require an impossible moving target of evidence on every aspect.  

 

Science does not have absolute proof of gravity, able to explain exactly why.  Although we don't have absolute proof, I can assure you, I believe gravity exists.   Sometimes absolute proof is not possible and judgment is required.

 

Very simple, there are organizations/countries that endorse adding more fluoride to peoples' diet/lives.  And there are many organizations/countries that do not.  You refuse to accept evidence I provide, so you need to search for yourself.   I can't do your homework for you. Go to pubmed and search.  www.fluoridealert.org has the largest fluoride data base that I'm aware of.  CDC and ADA have their side.  Read both sides of the evidence, not just research which supports your bias.

 

I provided you evidence that the NHANES 2011-2012 reported 60% of adolescents have dental fluorosis, a biomarker of excess fluoride exposure.  20% have moderate/severe.  That, in and of itself must be addressed.    

 

There is no logical, ethical or financial reason to give people fluoride more when they are getting too much.

 

If you want to know more about the various countries which do not support giving people too much fluoride, then contact the countries yourself.  Nothing I provide, quote, reference or say will change your mind.  So do your own investigation.  I have done thousands of hours of investigation and my professional judgment, based on all streams of evidence, is that many are ingesting too much fluoride and the best place to reduce exposure is a cessation of water fluoridation.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 523 of 872

Dr. Bill,

 

Just so we are clear here, I haven’t been making any claims.  If you can find something in my comments which you feel is factually incorrect, please bring it to my attention and I will be more than happy to defend it . . unlike yourself.

 

These people, yourself included, are “Demanding” that the AARP take action against community fluoridation.  In your efforts, you all have made some pretty astonishing claims. 

 

I have simply been asking you to supply evidence of some of your claims, which I find, frankly, unbelievable.  You are the ones making the “Demands” here.  And you’re the ones who are trying to make the case to support your “Demand.”  

 

You are the one who is supposed to be the expert.  You’re the Doctor.  I’m not here to answer your questions.  I’m here ask you for evidence of some things I’m reading from you that I just don’t believe.  Frankly, and this is just my opinion, I believe you have been trying to hood-wink the AARP to get them to support your fringe position. 

 

 You can distract and raise other issues all you want, but the bottom line is, I believe you are making false claims and I am offering you the opportunity to support your stories with evidence. On the other hand, if you can defend some of your odd claims with valid evidence, that would be great. 

 

When we left off:  After I stated, factually, that there is not one reputable scientific or health organization which opposes water fluoridation, you provided a list of countries which do not fluoridate their water, and of course, countries are not reputable scientific organizations. 

 

In defense of your list, you said, “Each of the countries I listed have agencies which determine whether a substance is effective and safe at a specific dosage.  They have looked and evaluated the science and primary evidence and rejected fluoridation.”  End quote.  07-27-2018 11:56 AM 

 

In response to that, I asked you:  “Then you will be kind enough to provide links to the Danish, Norwegian, and Finnish government peer-reviewed studies which find that optimally fluoridated water is harmful.”   ‎07-27-2018 02:48 PM

 

I also asked you for the Hungarian government agency’s peer-reviewed study that found optimally fluoridated water harmful.  All these countries were included in your list. 

 

I will have to go back and review other claims you had made which you refused to defend, but for now, let’s stay focused and just concentrate on this one. 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 524 of 872

David,

 

Try resonding without personal attacks.  Would be more readable, credible and scientific.

 

I have been busy and not had a chance to read all the postings here.  Would you be so kind as to repost your response to my questions:

 

1.     How do we know when people are ingesting too much fluoride?  With 60% of adolescents showing signs of dental fluorosis, 20% with moderate/severe, when should my public health profession reduce exposure?

 

2.     What concentration of fluoride in the tooth shows lower dental caries?

 

3.    Over 50 human studies, several at low levels of fluoride in water, and over 200 animal studies report developmental neurotoxicity/neurotoxicity of fluoride.  What evidence refutes those studies?

 

When it comes to "safety," prospective randomized controlled trials are not ethical.  For example, there are no high quality studies measuring the effects of jumping off a 10 story building.  Would simply not be ethical.  My point, in case you miss it, safety studies are more complex and judgment must be used.  

 

With so many ingesting too much fluoride, the developmental neurotoxicity studies become alarming.

 

4.  High quality prospective randomized controled trials on efficacy of fluoride ingestion can be done.  What primary high quality studies can you provide which demonstrate efficacy.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 525 of 872

RS:  “I am a chemist, a scientist, not a used car salesman..”

Response:  Good, then you should know how to do math.

 

RS:  “ It is not possible to prove that the F discharges caused the collapse that happened after the discharges began.”

Response:  Sure it is.  First determine the flow of the Sacramento River when the salmon industry collapsed.  Then determine effluent discharge per day.  Joe Carroll used a fluoride level of 0.6 ppm F for effluent, and I think that’s fair.  He was quite right that partial removal from solid waste would have lowered the level.  Moreover, he didn’t account for storm water and other run off infiltration, which would have lowered it more.  We know that salmon are sensitive to 0.5 ppm F.  From that, it is a simple math calculation. 

 

So when you say it is not possible to prove that the F discharges caused the collapse of the salmon industry, my response would be that Failure of Simple Arithmetic should be an Embarrassment!

 

You’ve got a theory that can be proven or disproven with a simple math calculation.  Math doesn’t lie.  Used car salesmen lie.

 

We don’t see math and science from you, we see excuses:  “It is not possible to prove that the F discharges caused the collapse that happened after the discharges began.”  And you say you are a chemist?

  

One more thing:

" Pollution from farms and urban areas took a heavy toll on the river's environment, and heavy irrigation withdrawals sometimes resulted in massive fish kills.  Since 1960, when the big pumps at the head of the California Aquaduct in the Delta began their operation, the pattern of water flow in the Delta has been changed considerably leaving the fish confused as to where to go, resulting in many generations dying off because they have not been able to find their way upstream. In 2004, only 200,000 fish were reported to return to the Sacramento; in 2008, a disastrous low of 39,000.

 

"In 1999, five hydroelectric dams on Battle Creek, a major tributary of the Sacramento River, were removed to allow better passage of the fish. Three other dams along the creek were fitted with fish ladders. The river is considered one of the best salmon habitats in the watershed because of its relatively cold water and the availability of ideal habitat such as gravel bars"

 

“By the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the government blamed crashing fish populations on overfishing, especially off the Northern California and Oregon coast, which lie directly adjacent to the migration paths of Sacramento River salmon. This has resulted in a ban on coastal salmon fishing for several years since 2002.  The Red Bluff Diversion Dam, although not a large dam and equipped with fish passage facilities, also presents a major barrier. Because of inadequate design, roughly 25–40% of the incoming fish get blocked by the dam each year. The dam has also become a "favorite spot" for predatory fish to congregate, feasting on the salmon that get trapped both above and below the dam.  As of 2010, the salmon run has shown slight signs of improvement, probably because of that year's greater precipitation.”

 

So, as of 2010, the salmon population began to rebound.  Did fluoridation decrease in 2010?

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 526 of 872

Excuse me but the entire tower bridge across the sacramento river in the city and the banked shore lines is only 700 feet long. Have you ever been to Sacramento? Have you seen the massive discharge pipe that dumps wastewater into the river just south of town?

There exist people in government who are unable to protect our rivers from discharged wastewater but who know full well it is insane and immoral to use a river as a waste dump. The colorado River south of Laughlin has a similar problem where city wastewater is discharged directly into it. I disagree with the practice and so do some people on the Colorado River board but no one can do anything  about it. The city of needles just has to deal with it. One can see the river water quality deteriorate and no one skis there. soap suds line the river banks downstream of  the discharge pipe. Dumping F into the waste pipe would simply add to the problem. CA is not  MI. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 527 of 872

I'm boarding the ship now in Alaska and will be unavailable for some time. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 528 of 872
  • I am a chemist, a scientist, not a used car salesman.. No scientist knows everything, including me. It is not possible to prove that the F discharges caused the collapse that happened after the discharges began. I'm not God. One possibility is it was a coincidence, but the explanation that F was not involved and instead it was a drought is not reasonable And is unproven as well, for example Droughts  are not permanent and yet he salmon industry has  been devastated there since F discharges began. It is possible that salmon could return to normal strength some year in the future when imprinting for the few left might reestablish to the new conditions. I don't know. But all past droughts did nor eliminate the industry because they are not always present. If the drought were that had the reduced water flow volume  would concentrate the F level even higher. All this is not provable and i have mad my deduction. There was no drought of such an unusual extent to cause the total longstanding collapse. I've presented the information to the state fisheries management officials  that is my civic duty to do. You or anyone else who promotes the wonder substance fluoride that somehow helps teeth enamel, the hardest substance in the human body, and yet after swallowing somehow at the same time  cannot harm ie adversely affect any other tissue in the body, cN argue what you wish. 
Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 529 of 872

Dr. Sauerheber, 

 

`1.)  You have made a claim with which every expert who has looked at the situation disagrees.  Environmental experts have determined that drought hurt the salmon industry in Sacramento.  No environmental expert has ever claimed that municipal effluent has had any impact on Sacramento salmon.  What exactly are your qualifications?

 

2.)  Your comment below implies that there is zero flow in the Sacramento river, and that municipal effluent is jetted across a non-flowing river, creating this barrier you claim exists.

 

3.)  Have you bothered to do any calculations to support your far fetched theory?  For example, in my comment below you will see that Mr. Carroll has determined that the flow of the Columbia River is 200,000 cubic feet per second.  a.)  What is the flow rate of the Sacramento River?  And please provide documentation of your answer as Mr. Carroll did.  b.)  What was the municipal effluent discharge of South Sacramento when you claimed this happened?  Again, provide documentation of your answer.  

 

4.)  According to Mr. Carroll's calculations, an average discharge of optimally fluoridated water at 900,000 per day into a river flowing at 200,000 cfs, creates an environmental impact of 4 one-millionths of a part per million.  With a background fluoride level of 0.1 - 0.2 parts per million F, and salmon being sensitive at 0.5 ppm, we see that the impact was not even 1 one-hundred-thousandths of a part per million.  Moreover, Mr. Carroll's calculations may have been high, since he didn't account storm water run-off and other non-municipal infliltration which must be included into effluent discharge.

 

Have you done the math?  So far, all we've seen from you is some far fetched theory that supports your anti-fluoride agenda that no other expert agrees with.  And we have your word, with no documentation, that all these things happened silmultaniously.  

 

Perhaps you ascribe to the theory that if you say something enough, people will begin to believe it.  Sorry, math doesn't lie and science doesn't work that way.  Used car salesmen work that way.

 

5.)  One more thing.  I took the liberty of taking a look at the Sacramento River which you claim "is barely a stone throw wide."  According to Wikipedia, "The Sacramento River is the principal river of Northern California and is the largest river in California."  

 

I must say, Dr. Sauerheber, if "the largest river in California" is barely a stone throw wide, California must have some pretty tiny rivers.  I'll need to see those calculations and that documentation supporting it.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 530 of 872

The F concentration from the discharge point is not diluted. Salmon cannot navigate through it. In the Sacramento River which is barely a stone throw wide, the discharge tube emits its plume across the river. This presents a chemical barrier to salmon that navigate only to a specific spawn site with  a known, imprinted chemical composition. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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