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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 731 of 1,303

People who oppose fluoridation are in complete agreement with the scientific consensus. The consensus indicates that half of all ingested fluoride is assimilated into the bloodstream after conversion to hydrofluoric acid HF in the acidic stomach. And that of all the retained fluoride in man, 95% is retained in bone where fluoroapatite has a different crystal structure than normal hydroxyapatite.

The idea spread here that fluoridation opponents are not following this mainstream science is ridiculous. 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 732 of 1,303

I don't think the animals in the NTP study developed significant dental fluorosis. so Ithe exposure was not as high as what is happening to the fluoridated human population. We now  have nearly 70% of kids developing fluorosis.in the US,  Studies that don't develop the same blood fluoride level as seen in man and studies of short duration are insufficient to claim that lifelong fluoridation is harmless.

And if any study in animals finds significant harm, fluoride promotets will not halt fluoridation anyway. We already have massive proof of harm in research animals from fluoridated water, and yet fluoridation continues. 

 

 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: IAOMT is a highly respected Professional Dental Academy

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Message 733 of 1,303

You say this informtion is priceless. . . well maybe you can give me some of your Delta Dental money????

 

NTP Study. Johnny, you are only looking at one phase of the NTP review.

 

 I asked NTP to review the evidence on fluoride’s developmental neurotoxicity.  NTP agreed.  The review usually takes 2 or 3 years. 

 

The first phase is a review of current animal literature.  The result reported a “moderate” confidence of developmental neurotoxicity from fluoride.    Actually, that is quite strong and raises serious concerns but not definitive.

 

The second phase of the NTP review was an animal study to fill in weak areas of current research. NTP failed to fully appreciate that rats are 5 to 10 times less sensitive to fluoride than humans.  And NTP chose a strain of rat which is least sensitive.  And NTP failed to give the rats fluoride during the most sensitive early part of life when the brain is developing.  In other words, the study had little chance of finding developmental neurotoxicity.   For more details ask.

 

The third phase of the NTP review are the human studies.  In emails with Linda Birnbaum at NTP, she said the final report would be out at the end of 2017, then Spring of 2018 and this summer she said the report would be out by the end of this year because they were waiting for the results of another human study.  

 

With a “moderate” result for animals and if there is a “moderate” for humans, that will result in a determination that fluoride is a developmental neurotoxicant.   In just a couple months we should know more.   

 

Of course you can cherry pick just the data which you like, or you can be inclusive.

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Re: IAOMT is a highly respected Professional Dental Academy

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Message 734 of 1,303

William,

 

I'll wait on your NTP response.  This should be priceless.  

 

Warmest persoanl regards,

 

Johnny

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Re: IAOMT is a highly respected Professional Dental Academy

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Message 735 of 1,303

tooth with caries jpeg.jpg

 

Johnny,

 

The picture above is the picture you suggest evidence based dentistry would do a sealant instead of a filling. 

 

Please provide your evidence, RTC study.  But of course there are no such studies.  At least find one clinical practicing dentist who agrees with you that a sealant on this tooth would stop the caries.

 

Bill

 

I'll get at your question on NTP this evening. 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 736 of 1,303

“Existing data indicate that subsets of the population may be unusually susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride and its compounds. These populations include the elderly, people with deficiencies of calcium, magnesium, and/or vitamin C, and people with cardiovascular and kidney problems…. Post menopausal women and elderly men in fluoridated communities may also be at risk of fractures.” United States Public Health Service Report (ATSDR TP-91/17,  Sec.2.7, April 1993)  

 

Fluoridationists have been organized and trained by marketing gurus to frame the conversations around teeth or whatever minor or discredited piece of science that can create doubt. However, the fact of the matter is the weight of the scientific evidence supported by testimony of seniors as well as evolving medical opinion is that fluoridation is an immoral medical mandate that causes disease, disability and even death in millions of consumers.  

 

Pew2slides.jpg2012 training for social media trolls

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Re: IAOMT is a highly respected Professional Dental Academy

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Message 737 of 1,303

Hi William,

 

Do this for me and I will answer your points below.

 

Please address the findings of the National Toxicolgy Program's Report "An Evaluation of Neurotoxicity Following Fluoride Exposure from Gestational Through Adult Ages in Long-Evans Hooded Rats".  You were ecstatic when the NTP agreed to study fluoride intakes at 0ppm fluoride in water, 10ppm (equivalent to 0.7ppm of fluoride in community water fluoridation), and 20ppm fluoride in water (equivalent to the EPA's MCL of 4mg/L [ppm]).

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12640-018-9870-x

 

 

They found “no exposure-related differences in motor, sensory, or learning and memory performance” for any of the nine different tests they conducted.

 

Nor were thyroid hormone levels were affected.

 

No IQ changes, organ changes, and no brain cell death.

 

Since this study has come out, there has been no mention of it by you or FAN.  Why is that?

 

Warmly,

 

Johnny

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Re: IAOMT deceptive Position Statement on Water Fluoridation

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Message 738 of 1,303

Dr. Osmunson – Your grumbling about perceived slander or defamation is a good opportunity to revisit the questions I have been asking for several weeks now (without answer) about your slanderous accusations of the CDC, ADA and AAP on 7-9-2018: “CDC references the ADA and AAP,  and the ADA and AAP reference each other and the CDC.  Circular referencing.” and “Johnny, the credibility of those so called "scientific" organizations has been seriously tarnished.  They do not protect the publicThey are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists.  Scientists question and do not assume and base their science on trust.” and “I do not call those organizations following the herd scientificlly credible, when it comes to fluoridation.  Yes, they are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation.”

 

You must know that those three organizations are a small fraction of the well over 100 recognized and respected (except by anti-science activists) science and health organizations (and their hundreds of thousands of representatives) that continue to publically recognize the benefits and safety of community water fluoridation for protecting public health. These organizations include: The World Health Organization which represents 191 countries, the British Dental Association (around 22,000 members), the British Medical Association (over 156,000 members), the Irish Dental Association (over 1,800 members), the American  Dental Association (over 114,000 members), the American Medical Association (over 200,000 members), the American Academy of Pediatrics (around 64,000 members), the Canadian Dental Association (over 16,000 members), the Canadian Medical Association (80,000 members), The Australian Dental Association (over 11,000 members), the Australian Medical Association (over 28,000 members), the New Zealand Dental Association (2,026 members), and so on…

 

Q1) I will ask you again – do you also claim that, because all these organizations and their members accept the scientific consensus of relevant experts that fluoridation is a safe and effective public health measure, “They do not protect the public?”  Do you also claim that all these organizations and their members “are lemmings, followers, part of a herd, not scientists”?

 

Q2) I ask you again to explain how you can possibly claim, “Yes, they [any of the organizations and their members you recognize as’ lemmings’] are the best in their field and experts, but not in fluoridation”  All of these educated, experienced professionals (many with patients who drink optimally fluoridated water) who are “best in their field” will have training on evaluating evidence, they will have better access to and understanding of the scientific literature on fluoridation than the general public, they will hear the anti-F accusations continually, and they will evaluate it long enough to recognize the anti-science distortions of that evidence. I am not a health professional, but I can recognize the way fluoridation opponents have distorted and reinterpreted their alleged “evidence” for presentation to the public after it has been thoroughly rejected by the relevant scientific/health communities.

 

Q3) I ask you again to explain why only a small group of outlier, alternative health organizations support the anti-F opinions – in contrast to all major science and health organizations (and their members) that either publically recognize the benefits of CWF or have not made public statements that CWF is a harmful public health measure.  Do you really believe the opinions accepted as gospel by the 13 alternative health, environmental, spiritual and cultural organizations you listed as opposing CWF constitutes or defines a scientific consensus?  By the way, you might want to add two additional anti-F organizations to your list, INFOWARS: Alex Jones, "I grew up in Dallas, Texas, drinking sodium fluoridated water. All the scientific studies show my IQ has been reduced by at least 20 points." and Natural News: Mike Adams

 

Q4) I ask you again to explain your understanding of the scientific consensus as it relates to fluoridation and other conclusions made about safe and effective health initiatives.  If you dismiss the concept of scientific consensus, explain what you accept to replace generally agreed upon conclusions about a scientific issue.  Two examples:
~> Do you accept the scientific consensus that vaccinations are safe and effective? 
~> Do you accept the scientific consensus that the benefits of drinking water disinfection outweigh the risks of the created disinfection byproducts?

 

Actually, challenging the current Scientific Consensus (or Expert Consensus) with new, legitimate evidence is a critical element of the scientific method.  If fluoridation opponents had legitimate scientific evidence to support their opinions, the consensus would change.

Ethan Siegel: What Does 'Scientific Consensus' Mean?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/06/24/what-does-scientific-consensus-mean 

Naomi Oreskes: Why we should trust scientists:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxyQNEVOElU

https://vialogue.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/ted-naomi-oreskes-why-we-should-trust-scientists/

 

The entire agenda of anti-science activists (ASAs) is to propagate distrust of mainstream science  and promote their outlier agendas to the general public bypassing the processes of science.

 

Q5) What is your professional evaluation of the reviews and studies published since 2000 that have unanimously concluded that community water fluoridation reduces dental decay?  None of these reviews reported any health risks from drinking optimally fluoridated water, only an increased risk of very mild to mild dental fluorosis.  The reviews/studies include:
the 2018 National Toxicity Program fluoride study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4815826/
the 2018 study, Water Fluoridation and Dental Caries in U.S. Children and Adolescents;
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022034518774331
the 2018 Water Fluoridation Health Monitoring Report for England;
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/water-fluoridation-health-monitoring-report-for-england-2...
the 2018 study, Contemporary evidence on the effectiveness of water fluoridation in the prevention of childhood caries – Australia;
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cdoe.12384
the 2018 Food Safety Authority of Ireland Fluoride Report;
https://www.fsai.ie/news_centre/tds_fluoride_30042018.html
the 2018 CDC Statement on the Evidence Supporting the Safety and Effectiveness of Community Water Fluoridation

https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/guidelines/cdc-statement-on-community-water-fluoridation.html

the 2017 Swedish report, Effects of Fluoride in the Drinking Water;
https://www.ifau.se/globalassets/pdf/se/2017/wp2017-20-the-effects-of-fluoride-in-the-drinking-water...
the 2017 National Health and Medical Research Council 2017 Public Statement – Water Fluoridation and Human Health in Australia;
https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/e44-0
The 2017 EPA Response:  Fluoride Chemicals in Drinking Water; TSCA Section 21 Petition
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/02/27/2017-03829/fluoride-chemicals-in-drinking-water...

the 2017 history of public health use of fluorides in caries prevention

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5329778/

the 2016 World Health Organization report: Fluoride and Oral Health;
http://www.who.int/oral_health/publications/fluroide-oral-health/en/
the 2016 (update) Best Practice Approach - Community Water Fluoridation -  Association of State and Territorial Dental Directors

https://www.astdd.org/bestpractices/BPAFluoridation.pdf

the 2016 systematic review of published studies:  Does cessation of community water fluoridation lead to an increase in tooth decay?

https://jech.bmj.com/content/70/9/934

the 2015 Manual of Dental Practices, Council of European Dentists;
https://cedentists.eu/library/eu-manual.html
the 2015 U.S. Public Health Service Recommendation for Fluoride Concentration in Drinking Water for the Prevention of Dental Caries;  Demonstrates how the scientific consensus changes based on legitimate evidence – not fearmongering.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4547570/
the 2015 Cochrane Water Fluoridation Review;
https://www.cochrane.org/CD010856/ORAL_water-fluoridation-prevent-tooth-decay
the 2015  Health Effects of water Fluoridation - An Evidence Review.  Ireland Health Research Board

http://www.hrb.ie/fileadmin/publications_files/Health_Effects_of_Water_Fluoridation.pdf

the 2014 AAP Clinical Report: Fluoride Use in Caries Prevention in the Primary Care Setting
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/134/3/626

the 2014 Royal Society of New Zealand, Health effects of water fluoridation;
http://www.pmcsa.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/Health-effects-of-water-fluoridation-Aug2014.pdf
the 2013 Congressional Research Service, Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Review of Fluoridation and Regulation Issues;
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33280.pdf
the 2013 Community Guide Systematic Review, Dental Caries (Cavities): Community Water Fluoridation

https://www.thecommunityguide.org/findings/dental-caries-cavities-community-water-fluoridation

The 2011 SCHER Critical review of any new evidence on the hazard profile, health effects, and human exposure to fluoride and the fluoridating agents of drinking water:
https://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/environmental_risks/docs/scher_o_139.pdf
the 2011 Guidelines for Canadian Drinking Water Quality: Guideline Technical Document – Fluoride

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/healthy-living/guidelines-canadian-drin...

the 2007 Dutch Ministry of Health and Welfare and Sports:  Economic evaluation of prevention: further evidence, GA de Wit;
https://www.rivm.nl/bibliotheek/rapporten/270091004.pdf
the 2006 Australian NHMRC systematic review of the efficacy and safety of fluoridation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18584000

the 2000 York, Systematic review of water fluoridation;
https://www.bmj.com/content/321/7265/855.full.print
the 2000 Community Preventive Services Task Force, Preventing Dental Caries: Community Water Fluoridation
https://www.thecommunityguide.org/sites/default/files/Oral-Health-Fluoridation-Archive.pdf

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Re: IAOMT deceptive Position Statement on Water Fluoridation

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Message 739 of 1,303

Johnny,

 

Do not continue to slander or defame me.  You don't know what you are talking about, i.e. Potsdam.  Call me, email me, but don't make claims about people you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

You have made serious public allegations that I am doing malpractice, yet you have never seen my patients or my work (that I know of).  You have not talked to me.   Without talking to me you publicly defame me.  Very unprofessional, Johnny.  Are you a currently practicing dentist and in what state?  What is your license number?  How many adult patients have you diagnosed with dental fluorosis.

 

Failure to diagnose is malpractice.  According to NHANES 2011-2012, we dentists should have over half of our adolescents documented in their charts with dental fluorosis and a third of young adults.  If not, we are failing to diagnose pathology.  Yes, I diagnose dental fluorosis daily and document.

 

Second, the slides of treated dental fluorosis are not my patients and I did not treat them and have never met them.  You accused me in public of malpractice on patients not of record and I have never seen.  Very unprofessional.  Are you or I or any clinician responsible for patient treatment you or I have never seen?  Of course not.

 

The work in those photos was exceptional from my friends and mentors and I respect their work and they gave me permission to use their pictures. Cosmetic dentistry is not malpractice.  If a patient is not satisfied with other forms of treatment, or the patient wants the best, porcelain is an accepted option.  Treatment of dental fluorosis is happening and is ethical.  Clearly, you are not a general or cosmetic dentist.  

 

Goodness sakes, Johnny, people request all kinds of cosmetic surgery and with informed consent, cosmetic dentistry is not malpractice. . . but forced medication without consent is, i.e. fluoridation.

 

Now specific to your post on sealants.  You tell me the diagnosis of those bombed out teeth?  What is the diagnosis, cavitated lesions, caries, decay, fluorosis?  No dentist in their right mind would put sealants on those teeth instead of fillings, unless they liked endodontics.  With sealants and a typical American sugar diet, I would give those teeth 2 to 4 years before one would hurt.   No dental board would accept sealants over those seriously bombed out cavitated teeth.  No dental school would accept a sealant over those two teeth I showed in my presentation.  My dental school did not permit sealants over deep caries.  Does yours?

 

Please send reference of the evidence-based research which shows sealants arrest huge caries like the ones shown in the pictures of my presentation.   RCT studies expected.

 

I question whether you are actually an active practicing dentist or been up at night with emergency patients in pain because some dentist experimented with a sealant over caries and the tooth now needs an endo.   Seen too many failed sealants, and yes, I agree with sealants.  But not for teeth like that.  Sealants may temporarily slow down caries, but not long term.  Sealants prevent caries, and not long term arresting of bombed out carious teeth.  

 

Research please, to back up your claim those teeth I showed would have had long term success with sealants. 

 

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Re: IAOMT is a highly respected Professional Dental Academy

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Message 740 of 1,303

Johnny,

 

Do not continue to slander or defame me.  You don't know what you are talking about, i.e. Potsdam.  Call me, email me, but don't make claims about people you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

You have made serious public allegations that I am doing malpractice, yet you have never seen my patients or my work (that I know of).  You have not talked to me.   Without talking to me you publicly defame me.  Very unprofessional, Johnny.  Are you a currently practicing dentist and in what state?  What is your license number?  How many adult patients have you diagnosed with dental fluorosis.

 

Failure to diagnose is malpractice.  According to NHANES 2011-2012, we dentists should have over half of our adolescents documented in their charts with dental fluorosis and a third of young adults.  If not, we are failing to diagnose pathology.  Yes, I diagnose dental fluorosis daily and document.

 

Second, the slides of treated dental fluorosis are not my patients and I did not treat them and have never met them.  You accused me in public of malpractice on patients not of record and I have never seen.  Very unprofessional.  Are you or I or any clinician responsible for patient treatment you or I have never seen?  Of course not.

 

The work in those photos was exceptional from my friends and mentors and I respect their work and they gave me permission to use their pictures. Cosmetic dentistry is not malpractice.  If a patient is not satisfied with other forms of treatment, or the patient wants the best, porcelain is an accepted option.  Treatment of dental fluorosis is happening and is ethical.  Clearly, you are not a general or cosmetic dentist.  

 

Goodness sakes, Johnny, people request all kinds of cosmetic surgery and with informed consent, cosmetic dentistry is not malpractice. . . but forced medication without consent is, i.e. fluoridation.

 

Now specific to your post on sealants.  You tell me the diagnosis of those bombed out teeth?  What is the diagnosis, cavitated lesions, caries, decay, fluorosis?  No dentist in their right mind would put sealants on those teeth instead of fillings, unless they liked endodontics.  With sealants and a typical American sugar diet, I would give those teeth 2 to 4 years before one would hurt.   No dental board would accept sealants over those seriously bombed out cavitated teeth.  No dental school would accept a sealant over those two teeth I showed in my presentation.  My dental school did not permit sealants over deep caries.  Does yours?

 

Please send reference of the evidence-based research which shows sealants arrest huge caries like the ones shown in the pictures of my presentation.   RCT studies expected.

 

I question whether you are actually an active practicing dentist or been up at night with emergency patients in pain because some dentist experimented with a sealant over caries and the tooth now needs an endo.   Seen too many failed sealants, and yes, I agree with sealants.  But not for teeth like that.  Sealants may temporarily slow down caries, but not long term.  Sealants prevent caries, and not long term arresting of bombed out carious teeth.  

 

Research please, to back up your claim those teeth I showed would have had long term success with sealants. 

 

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