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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 181 of 1,448

sirpac271999 I think your "reply" (actually intervention) illustrates my point.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 182 of 1,448

Ken,

 

You are telling us that, people are so brain damaged by fluorides in this country that they cannot discern facts from propaganda? You say that:“Voters make their decisions according to values - not science.” Ok, so what values? The value to be able to ingest clean water or the value imposed by the brainwashing of the fluoride disposing industry or the propaganda ministry of the milutary industrial complex?

 

 Then you claim that: “The science is far too complex for even representatives to understand, let alone voters.” Really? The science is more than clear that all fluorides are neurotoxic endocrine disrupting enzyme poisons. What is so compkex about that? 

 

“It comes down to where one lays one's confidence” - Yes, with valid science and not with venally interested “health experts” of the fluoride disposal industry. They can ingest their rat poison toorhpaste as much as they wish, but what right does any “health expert” have to poison the public water supply? Again, where is the informed consent that belongs to individuals and not to some unknown “health experts” that take no responsibility for any outcomes whatsoever!

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Frequent Social Butterfly
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 183 of 1,448

Richard, if you question a claim made in Connett & Perrott (2014), The Fluoride Debate (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298124881_The_fluoride_debate) then, by all means, make your critique - but please provide a reference or citation (page numbers and quote will do.

Remember there are two authors and the chapters alternate between authors. (Paul Connett made many false claims and I spent most of my time showing where he was incorrect or simply promoting misinformation).

I cannot respond to your assertion that I "claim that there is no such thing as a natural water that is fluoride free." I need to know exactly what you are objecting to in my writing.

To say that fluoride is ubiquitous is not at all contradicted by the fact that in many waterways the F concentration is below the detection method of the methodology used. That is simple chemistry.

But, please can you back your claims with some sort of citation and quote. For example - you say without citation "In the Pacific Northwest such as Klamath Lake there is no measurable fluoride in the water naturally (below 0.05 ppm). The same is true for many fresh drinking water sources." Yet 
Klamath Blue Green Algae, which is harvested and sold by alternative health advocates as a beneficial supplement, contains 872 ppm F. (https://algae.uk/minerals.html).

Yes, Paul, no longer does any research or teaching. But we are peers in the sense we have both done research and taught, although in different relative amounts.

The fact is that however he, or you, might "see his job" he makes many unsupported assertions about the science - even promoted many distortions of the science. I have covered many of these in b my articles and The Fluodie debate contains both his incorrect claims (in his chapters) and their refutation (in my chapters).

And here is a typical misrepresentation of the science coming from a FAN press release (which of course will have been written by, or eat least approved by, Paul):

"
Fluoride exposure may lead to a reduction in kidney and liver function among adolescents, according to a study published by Mount Sinai researchers today, August 8, in Environment International. "

Yet the fact is the cited paper did not research harm to kidney and liver - it simply presented the range of values for 9 kidney and liver parameters in a healthy population.

I quote the authors of the cited paper:

"this study did not aim to determine whether fluoride exposure is associated with clinical decrements in kidney function among U.S. adolescents. Rather, this study aimed to examine subclinical changes in kidney or liver parameters associated with fluoride exposure
among a generally healthy population. For example, the lowest GFR estimated in this study was 84 mL/min/1.73m2, and therefore none were below the<75 mL/min/1.73m2 value considered reflective of abnormal kidney function. Future prospective studies including participants with and without kidney disease are needed to assess clinical changes in kidney or liver function."

This is just a single example of the misinformation and distortion of science promoted by Paul Connett that needs to be corrected. In this case, I consider that "my job."

 




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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 184 of 1,448

Being a Democrat is hardly an indication of democratic views when we consider recent history where Democrat leaders refused to accept an election result purely because their woman didn't win.

If you think a referendum in San Diego was not followed then do something about it. This is what we did in our city and we won - the council was forced to reverse its undemocratic decision to stop community water fluoridation and accept the overwhelming vote of the citizens.

Voters make their decisions according to values - not science. The science is far too complex for even representatives to understand, let alone voters. It comes down to where one lays one's confidence - with scientific and health experts or with alternative and "natural" health experts (who are often financed by big business anyway)

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 185 of 1,448

Anyone who argues for water fluoridation policy is a fluoride promoter! It is ridiculous to argue otherwise. Also, there is no demorcracy in the forced fluoridation policy, which is imposed on brainwashed inhabitants of fluoridated districts. As noted by Dr. Sauerheber, such unethical fascist  policies have nothing to do with democracy. Not only have citicens of many of these locales voted against such unconsented mass poisoning, it is obvious that the will of the subjects makes no difference to the policymakers, as the forced poisoning continues. Thus, the US is not a democracy, as long as the forced fluoridation continues. 

 

Finally, medicating individual bloodstreams with artificial industrial waste silicofluorides should never be a policy issue in the first place. The Nuremberg code and the Helsinki and Belmont declarations make it clear that forced medication is unethical and requires individual informed consent. If any single person refuses to consent to be forcefully medicated through the water supply, then they have a right to refuse, and such policy cannot be ethically imposed. Since fluoridation continues, regardless of individual right not to be forcefully medicated, it is obvious that water fluoridation is based on fascist dictatorship and not on any democratic principles or truth for that matter.

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 186 of 1,448

Please spare us. I've pointed out several false claims made in the provided link, like the claim that there is no such thing as a natural water that is fluoride free. 

Dr. Connett does not do experimental research anymore  So what? He is a teacher and sees his job is to explain the vast research that is done that demonstrates the fallacy of a worthless, harmful, un-Democratic procedure forced on people against their will. I applaud his efforts and oppose those who ridicule him and misrepresent the truth about "mass fluoridation".

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 187 of 1,448

No I understand it. Thats why I am a Democrat.

But fluoridation misinformation and deception  is so bad, especially on the pro side, that informed voting is rare..

In San Diego even though voters were well informed and  voted twice, in two separate elections, against it, San Diegans are all forced to accept water infused with industrial fluoride anyway.

Democracy has absolutely nothing to do with fluoridation of water in So CA, where officials actually wrongly believe  that it has some health benefit.

San Diego citizens voted and passed city ordinance section 67 that prohibits adding any fluoridation materials into our precious limited drinking water supply. And yet  city officials accepted fluoridation against the  voting public will anyway. Fluoridation  is a forced police action and is as anti-Democratic as anything could get. I most certainly do "get it".

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 188 of 1,448

Richard, your comments about Researchgate are irrelevant. No one credible ever claims it represents peer-review publication. But it is a handy place to make one's publications and articles available. I, for example, have over 100 publications and articles on Researchgate, most of them peer-reviewed.

I don't know why Paul Connett does not put his articles on Researchgate (although he can not claim peer review for the vast majority of his articles, can he?

Of course, the credibility of an article and its contents never depends on peer review or not. I approach all articles critically and intelligently. There are plenty of peer-reviewed articles which a wrong - that is the nature of science.

This is why I get into this sort of review of articles used by activists. I think it serves a useful purpose and the fact that you are unable to show me wrong on any of my assertions shows that I must be serving a useful purpose.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 189 of 1,448

You don't get it, do you Richard? Some of my best friends "are against fluoridation." I do not oppose them for it and always welcome a healthy discussion.

I support the right of a community to make a decision on this issue whether it is for or against - because I support democracy.

The decision made by our local council was "wrong" because it violated democracy. It went against a previous referendum result and all local polling on the issue. It happened because the council was effectively captured on the issue by lying activists. The councilors themselves did no understand the science.

The fact that these activists are wrong in their claims about the science and their promotion of misinformation is, in the end, beside the point. The community makes the decision and I support that aspect of democracy even when I think they may be scientifically wrong or I do not agree with the people elected, etc.

I support the results of our government elections -even though in most cases the people elected are not the ones I voted for.

Simple democracy, Richard. You seem unable to understand that.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 190 of 1,448

People who willfully promote or protect the policy of the fuoridation of U.S. consumers I refer to as fluoridationists. They are other things as well of course, but the title indicates rhat they support fluoridation and oppose those who are against fluoridation.

And your own words indicate the title is fitting. You stated in writing here that your community made a wrong decision when they kicked out fluoridation and a correct decision when it was restarted.

You also oppose Connett who does the best he can to not state anything that cannot be backed up with evidence.. He goes so far as to not cite the detailed work of Yiamouyiannis and Sutton and Teotia and Teotia , the largest human studies that exist, one a 30 year comprehensive data set,  all indicating that ingesting fluoridated water does not reduce decay at all. Connett presents the NIDR data suggesting  that such water can affect about 1 cavity per lifetime.

 What causes caries is not brushing after eating sugar. F has nothing to do with the cavitation process.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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