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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 441 of 1,448

That is not true. F is not reported as a component of the scales in this section.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 442 of 1,448

Richard, your quote:  "I never said if you drink fluoridated water yiu will develop CO brown  stain  It takes high iron ingestion along with fluorosis to develop that. Fluorotic teeth may he subject to a variety of stains depending on where you live and what you consume."

 

Response:  I never claimed you said this.  You say you have a Ph.D.  Surely you can comprehend the meaning of my comment.  We are discussing the deceptive use of a photograph taken by Hardy Limeback.  Please try to stay focused.  

 

I am sorry to have to keep repeating myself, but you seem distracted.  Dr. Limeback's photo of stained teeth, which you have claimed have Colorado Brown Stain, falls into the category of Moderate Dental Fluorosis according to the standard Dean's Index.  

 

Again, Moderate Dental Fluorosis, which is not associated with CWF, is defined as, "All enamel surfaces of the teeth are affected and surfaces subject to attrition show wear. Brown stain is frequently a disfiguring feature."

 

The photo of these teeth which appear in an anti-CWF article by attorney Michael Connett are diagnosed as having Mild Dental Fluorosis.  By implication, the photo suggests that this is what can happen by drinking optimally fluoridated water.  PLEASE NOTE:  You didn't say that.  The photo in that context deceptively implies this.  

 

I find it odd that you would spend roughly one third of your response on Dr. Jay Kumar's peer-reviewed work.  It is not central to the discussion.  Indeed, after citing it I added, "but that is irrelevant to this discussion."

 

Of course you would disagree with Dr. Kumar's peer-reviewed work.  It disagrees with your bias.  If you can show me some peer-reviewed work that demonstrates teeth with Mild Dental fluorosis are more subject to decay, please present it. 

 

But the fact is that teeth with Mild Dental Fluorosis are less resistant to decay than teeth without this condition . . as demonstrated by - well, right here:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19571049

 

Where's your peer-reviewed work demonstrating the contrary?

 

You simply saying something doesn't make it true.  It's like you saying that CWF is responsible for the collapse of the salmon industry in the Sacramento River without  . . . 1.)  knowing background fluoride levels in the river . . . 2.)  checking fluoride levels in the river downstream of effluent discharge . . . 3.) knowing the flow of the river . . . 4.)  knowing the amount of daily effluent discharge . . . 5.)  any examination of any actual dead salmon . . .  6.)   and maybe a real environmentalist who actually agrees with your unique hypothesis.  

 

You seem to have a habit of just saying things with no evidence to support it.  It is interesting that Dr. Bill has compared me to the President.  Maybe he hasn't been reading your non-evidence based comments.  https://www.npr.org/2018/03/15/593844812/trump-admits-to-making-up-trade-deficit-in-talks-with-canad...

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 443 of 1,448

EPA knows fluoridation chemicals increase lead corrosion. Lead scales formed on lead service lines were mainly compounds of fluoride see pages. C104-111 in an EPA paper is found at https://archive.epa.gov/region03/dclead/web/pdf/91229.pdf

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Message 444 of 1,448

This isn't about teeth. This is about the stupidity of adding small amounts of poison to municipal water that increase the dissolution of other metals into water all of which accumulate in bodies and environment.

 

The fluoride (and other metals associated with fluoridation) that build up in bodies, bones and brains over the years lead to kidney disease, arthritis and dementia in many consumers

 

In the news 16 Feb 2019https://www.ksl.com/article/46492528/sandy-city-delayed-notifying-state-public-of-contamination-wate... 

Excerpts:  Contaminated drinking water sickened a 3-month-old baby and several other people in an area of Sandy where a no-drink order is in place pending lab results on levels of copper and lead.
 
Owens said the impacted area has expanded in size twice since the initial discovery and now includes as many as six schools, care centers and a recreation center. More than 450 households are impacted.
 
... the pump sent undiluted high concentrations of fluoride into the system for about 36 to 48 hours.
 
Nate Roe, the father of 3-month-old Henry, said he talked with multiple city employees by phone after the infant vomited his formula twice on Wednesday. His wife was sick as well, and the water tasted metallic.
 
A city worker visited his home and suggested the problem was a malfunctioning water softener. Roe said he doesn't have a water softener.
 
Workers told him to repeatedly flush his system and call the Utah Poison Control Center to report medical issues, but assured him the water was safe to drink.
 
The [Poison] center, however, could not advise him of what to do unless he knew the level of fluoride exposure. He said the city later told him it was 150 times what it should be.
 
When the city declared the water safe to drink, the Roe family resumed using tap water in their home by Feb. 11. "Then we found out yesterday (Friday) from a news article that there is lead and copper in the water," he said. "It is infuriating. Nobody told us about copper. Nobody told us about lead."
 
A Sandy City mother, who asked for her name to be withheld to protect her 3-year-old daughter's identity, said the girl tested "high" for levels of lead her pediatrician's office and they were referred for a full blood screening at a hospital lab for lead and copper.
 
Dr. Mike Moss, medical director of the Utah Poison Control Center, said multiple calls came after the initial burst of fluoride hit the drinking water system and they are still fielding calls from residents concerned over potential lead or copper exposure.
 
He said a friend and neighbor who is a chemist ran a pH test on the tap water that came back at 3.89, which is extremely acidic.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 445 of 1,448

Nonsense. I never said if you drink fluoridated water yiu will develop CO brown  stain  It takes high iron ingestion along with fluorosis to develop that. Fluorotic teeth may he subject to a variety of stains depending on where you live and what you consume.

Please stop the deceptipn as though fluorosis is,desirable. You quote kumar wjo publishes data that have means that do not differ beyond standard etror and proclaims that a fluorotic tooth is resistant to decay. That is deception

The point of all this is all enamel fluorosis is abnormality. And such teeth can be subject to discoloration depending on where you livev and what you ingest, the severity of the fluorosis etc.

We dont need  a treatise on the subject and instead advocate for no fluiride in rhe diet as much as possible . This means stopping fluoridaton where fluorosis increases in every fluoridated city and there are no exceptions.

Enough said.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 446 of 1,448

Dr. Sauerheber,

 

You are claiming that there is nothing deceptive about this photograph of teeth belonging to someone who has never drank artifically fluoridated water being used as an argument against it.  

 

Ok.  Well that says a lot about your standards regarding the level of deceptiveness you are willing to accept (provided the deceptiveness in question supports your bias).

 

Beyond that obvious deception, these teeth have been diagnosed by attorney Michael Connett as having Mild Dental Fluorosis.  You are telling me that the obvious stains on them are Colorado Brown Stain.  Photographer Limeback said they were orange stains which he believed were iron.  I suppose the color is irrelevant here.

 

But Wait!  There is even more deceptiveness about this photograph.  This article is all about arguing against Community Water Fluoridation (CWF).  And it is true that Very Mild and Mild Dental Fluorosis can be associated with CWF.  (Kumar has demonstrated that these teeth are healthier and more resistant to decay - but that is irrelevant to this discussion.)  So the implication that is being made with this photograph is - this is what happens from drinking water which has been fluoridated to the optimal level. 

 

According to standard and widely accepted Dean's Index used for the diagnosis of Dental Fluorosis --

 

Very Mild Dental Fluorosis is defind as teeth having, "Small, opaque, paper white areas scattered irregularly over the tooth but not involving as much as approximately 25% of the tooth surface. Frequently included in this classification are teeth showing no more than about 1 – 2mm of white opacity at the tip of the summit of the cusps, of the bicuspids or second molars."

 

Nothing about Colorado Brown Stain there.

 

Mild Dental Fluorosis , which is what these teeth are defined as having, is, "The white opaque areas in the enamel of the teeth are more extensive but do involve as much as 50% of the tooth."

 

Hmmm . . Nothing about Colorado Brown Stain there either.  Isn't that interesting.

 

Moderate Dental Fluorosis, which is not associated with CWF, is defined as, "All enamel surfaces of the teeth are affected and surfaces subject to attrition show wear. Brown stain is frequently a disfiguring feature."

 

Colorado Brown Stain, which you seem convinced that these teeth have, is a characteristic of Moderate Dental Fluorosis . . . But these teeth are diagnosed as having Mild Dental Fluorosis - which, again, can be associated with CWF.  

 

This photograph is not an example of what happens from drinking optimally fluoridated water.  This photograph is a lie.

 

Still want to stick with your story that there is nothing deceptive about the use of this photograph as an argument against CWF on a website whose sole motive is to generate fear and paranoia about CWF?

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 447 of 1,448

In colorado springs the brown stain was also attributed to iron that gained access to teeth interiors because of fluoride in drinking water. Regardless of the source of fluoride ingestiin during childhood, fluorosis is an undesired abnormality.

It is,deceptive to claim it is something to be desired to reduce caries, when thinned enamel cannot protect against caries. 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 448 of 1,448

Dr. Sauerheber,  

 

Dr. Limeback had said, "There is a history behind that case to which you refer on the Fluorideaction.net website. That young man had fluoride supplements because he grew up in a non-fluoridated area."

 

So what we have here are the iron stained teeth of a young man who grew up in a non-fluoridated area.  The man had a history of not drinking artifically fluoridated water.  

 

The photograph of these iron stained teeth are being used as an unsightly example on a website dedicated to the abolition of community water fluoridation.  

 

You don't see that as deceptive?  Interesting.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 449 of 1,448

Stained fluorotic teeth are common in areas of Colorado where fluoride is significant in drinking water. The name Colorado brown stain" was given for the affliction in the 1930's. So why is that "deceptive" to give an example of what can commonly happen to flurotic teeth since fluorosis leaves teeth with enamel hypoplasia (thin enamel) that is more subject to staining than normal teeth which do not contian fluoride?

This is not deceptive at all.

The observatiuon of good teeth in one country and poor teeth in another is not due to fluoride ingestion. Fluoride ingestion has nothing to do with dental caries, as proven in detailed perfectly controlled animal studies and in our largest epidemiiologic human studies. The presence of flujoride salt and the absence of fluoridated water are an anecdotal coincidental correlation.There are many regions where caries are lower when the water is devoid of fluoride and higher when the water is high in fluoride. This is because eating fluoride has absolutely nothing to do with dental caries. It is calcium content of the diet and the lack of sugar in the diet that have the largest effect., as prove4n inthe 30 year massive study by Teotia and Teotia.

What is deceptive is to claim that low levels of fluoride that are harmless even to salmon can somehow magically harden the hardest substance in the body, teeth enamel.

And what is deceptive is the article that was published by the Asso.Press this week by the CDC, who bames the high incidence of dental fluorosis in U.S. teens on kids using too much toothpaste when brushing. Wow. No mention of the fact that the CDC endorses water fluoridation which is responsible for 80% of the fluoride ion found in one's bloodsream in a fluoridated city (NRC, 2006). Unbelievable stupidity at best, and at worst downright deception and finger pointing to avoid litigation and any possible correction of following a deceptive false correlation to its full course..

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 450 of 1,448

Dr. Bill, sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner, I just got back from the Carribean.  And I have to say, while there is a lot of poverty in St. Lucia, the teeth of these people appeared to me to be in great shape.  There is no visable decay whatsoever.  I understand this country adds fluoride to its salt. 

 

This was quite a contrast to other countries where I have stayed.  For example, I spent a considerable amount of time in Afghanistan.  The teeth of those people were / are visibly rotting out of their heads and you can see the pain they are in.  It is a disgrace.  And you should be ashamed of yourself in your efforts to take us back to that point in time where so much suffering exists. 

 

Your quote (Timestamp ‎01-16-2019 06:31 PM):

 

"David,

 

I have not read anything in your posts which gives me the feeling that you honestly want my professional opinion on anything.  Your only interest in my comments is to demean me, attack me, try to prove me wrong, misquote, disparge and rip me apart like you have done to others.  Why should I put myself in that position?  I'm not insane."

 

Response:  You are wrong.  Please point out to me where I have misquoted you or anyone else in any way and I will be happy to retract and apologize.  For example, I had said that Dr. Richard claimed that water fluoridation killed the salmon in the Sacramento River.   He rightly pointed out to me that he never said that.  He said CWF was responsible for the collapse of the salmon industry in the Sacramento River.  I was very happy to apologize and amend my comment.  

 

So, just for the record, please point out to me where I have misquoted you. 

 

Your quote:  "you have repeatedly said the same disparaging attack over and over again, "Dr. Limeback's deceptive photograph. . . ."    Have you contacted Dr. Limeback?  Have you asked him to explain his comments?  What has been his response?"

 

Response:  If you have bothered to read my comments, you know I have.  For your review, we are discussing Dr. Limeback's photograph on this webpage  http://fluoridealert.org/studies/dental_fluorosis04b/ .  It is the second photograph in the article. 

 

This is what Dr. Limeback said about those teeth:  "There is a history behind that case to which you refer on the Fluorideaction.net website. That young man had fluoride supplements because he grew up in a non-fluoridated area.   .   .   .    BTW, no one as yet has determined what the orange colour represents. My expert opinion is that it is extra iron incorporation into the enamel . . "

 

So, Dr. Bill, I truly would like your professional opinion about this.  I will ask you the same question I have asked him.  Don't you think it is a little deceptive to use a photograph of iron stained teeth (as the most obvious markings have nothing to do with fluoride), diagnose these teeth as having  "Mild Dental Fluorosis" and allow them to be put on a website dedicated to the abolition of community water fluoridation, when the patient himself grew up in a non-fluoridated area and did not have a history of drinking artificially fluoridated water?

 

Simple question, yes or no.  Do you consider that deceptive?  What is your professional opinion?

 

 

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