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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 191 of 1,448

Richard, your comments on Researchgate and peer review raise some interesting issues which are worth discussion and I will post on them later.

But, first, a slightly related issue.

You have called me a "fluoridation promoter" - but that is certainly not the case and you cannot point to any evidence to support that claim.

In fact, I believe that the promotion of health policies like community water fluoridation are best left to the health and technical experts. It is dependent on community characteristics and these experts can make the best judgment call. I do not work as such an expert and have never appeared as an advocate on any body where these policies are advocated.

The second aspect of this is that the decisions of community water fluoridation in this country are, in the end, made democratically by the communities concerned. This is because of controversy around the subject. I support the right of the community to make those values-based decisions and have only participated in the discussion at that level because my own community was ignored when the local council removed community water fluoridation after its effective capture by activists. This wrong decision was eventually reversed after a second referendum where the community gave its overwhelming support for this health policy.

I am not an activist, normally. I do not advocate for specific policies (except democracy).

But my activity on this issue has been exactly the same as my activity on issues like religious distortion of science - eg., creationism and "intelligent design" or activist distortion of the science around climate change. I have vocally defended the science on these and similar issues, just as I have around issues related to fluoride. I have worked to expose and correct misinformation promoted by religious, political and "alternative health" activists.

In a sense, I am doing the job of peer review. This is particularly true with Paul Connett - I am his peer- similar age and qualification  (although I have far more research experience and publications). I have simply pulled him up for his promotion of misinformation and distortion of the science. This is quite independent of the promotion of any health policy.




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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 192 of 1,448

The link to a researchgate article called the fluoride debate has many distortions in it. First of all, this is not a peer reviewed publication and should not be considered scientific. Researchgate accepts any materials posted on it. There are good papers in it, and some have been separately peer reviewed by scientific journal editors where the author did not want to pay publication fees and instead posted it on the site. But much of the material can be misleading or incorrect because of lack of peer review.

This particular title itself was first owned by The Fluoride Debate written by Anita Shattuck also online for many decades that is a decent set of information. The title of the debate with Connett should therefore be changed.

One obvious problem with the researchgate article here is the claim that there is no such thing as naturally fluoride free water. Pure, pristine, natural fresh drinking water has no fluoride becaue fluoride has no human nutritive value of any kind and indeed fluoride is a contaminant of fresh drinking water (as defined and regulated by the U.S. EPA). In the Pacific Northwest such as Klamath Lake there is no measurable fluoride in the water naturally (below 0.05 ppm). The same is true for many fresh drinking water sources.

Second, there most certainly is a huge difference between industrial fluoride sorces vs natural fluoride found in some fresh water supplies. Natural fluoride ions are always accompanied with substantial levels of calciumand magnesium ions that minimize assimilation of ingested fluoride that are dissolved in the water from multiples types  of ionic salts.  Industrial fluoridation though uses sodium fluoride or fluosilicic acid. This adds three ingredients that do not actually belong in fresh clean drinking water, namely sodium, orthosilicic acid, and as mentioned fluoride. Every 30 tons of fluosilicic acid added into a city water supply produces 10 tons of sodium ion, 10 tons of fliuoride ion, and 10 tons of orthosilicic acid, none of which beong in fresh clean drinking water.

I could go on with a critique of the link, but what is the point? Arguing with a fluoridationist who debates minute detailed definitions with Connett while swallowing the entire made-up story, that lifelong eating/drinking fluoride has no adverse health side effects and also lowered dental caries at the same, time is a waste of time. One could ingest fluoride all day long but it will not prevent or cure a singel dental cavity.  And one can only ingest miniscule amounts of fluoride in a calcium deficient water supply and will have compromised bone because there is no fluoride blood concentration low enough to block its accumulation into bone where it does not belong.

There is poor reserach on the antif luordie side, and massive amounts of pitiful reserach on the pro fluoride side. But the truth is that fluoride is useless, harmful, a complete waste of public funds, and is an immoral forced action on people who want to be free of it..

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Kidneys & Livers Compromised by Fluoridation Policy

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Message 193 of 1,448

Richard, you have allowed your emotions to drive you off at a tangent. My response to CarryAnne simply showed how she misrepresented the Malin et al., (2019) study. That study did not show any abnormal liver or kidney parameters in the study group - contrary to her claim.

As for distorting science - Paul Connett is well known for this. Have a read of my scientific exchange with Paul where I exposed so many of the arguments he used as factually misleading. See Connett & Perrott (2014). The Fluoride Debate. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298124881_The_fluoride_debate

Paul has, because of his frequent visits here, accumulated a fair amount of suspicion and outright humour regarding his claims and no one credible listens to him now in New Zealand. His attempt last year to hold a meeting in the NZ Parliament Buildings was a complete failure - he was actually shunned by almost every MP.





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Re: Karpman Drama Triangle and Gaslight Tactics

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Message 194 of 1,448

You cite the Malin et al., (2019) paper as evidence for your claim that "fluoride even in low concentrations such as in 'optimally' fluoridated water causing serious harm in consumers."

But the fact remains that this paper does not identify any harm at all. It simply reports the range of values for nine liver and kidney parameters in a healthy population. None of these values indicate abnormalities in live or kidney health - none at all. 

Apart from that, extremely weak relationships of one (out of nine) of these parameters with blood plasma F and water F were found. The relationships are so weak they have no predictive value and certainly cannot be used to extrapolate outside the ranges found. 

One could critique the statistical analyses and their validity (for example I find their claim that outlier influence was excluded very unconvincing for water F) but why bother.

As the authors say:

"this study did not aim to determine whether fluoride exposure is associated with clinical decrements in kidney function among U.S. adolescents. Rather, this study aimed to examine subclinical changes in kidney or liver parameters associated with fluoride exposure
among a generally healthy population."

They further say:

"Future prospective studies including participants with and without kidney disease are needed to assess clinical changes in kidney or liver function."

There is no need to critique the quality of the statistical analyses to show you have misrepresented the paper - a simple consideration of these comments from the authors show that the paper in no way should be used to argue that "fluoride even in low concentrations such as in 'optimally' fluoridated water causing serious harm in consumers."

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Karpman Drama Triangle and Gaslight Tactics

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Message 195 of 1,448

How weird, those who specialize in vicioualy attacking fluoridation opponents regularly ignore the inconvenient science, like what I mentioned that provides biological plausability for Malin's study. Then KenP complains when after he's previoulsy identified himself as a retired New Zealander who used to work in agricultural chemistry that he is being attacked just for being identified - and then attacks Dr. Paul Connett, to boot, in an apples & oranges comparison.

 

That's called the Karpman Drama Triangle and involves a never ending Hero-Victim-Villian role playing. It's evoked by the Villian playing the Victim looking for a Hero. In this case, the fluoridationists like KenP trying to deceive the public with deflection and deception.

 

The Malin paper is high quality and just one of many that provides biological plausabilty for fluoride even in low concentrations such as in 'optimally' fluoridated water causing serious harm in consumers. Even the 2006 NRC commented on the alarming gaps in kidney science that indicated problems.

NRCkidneyPLUS.jpg   

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Re: Kidneys & Livers Compromised by Fluoridation Policy

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Message 196 of 1,448

Unbelievable. This fluoridation promoting person complains about being verbally reprimanded, and then himself announces that Paul Connett yearly performs a "misrepresentation of science". 

Between those who force the fluoridation of peoples' bones, vs those who disagree with this policy of altering peoples' bone structure and quality, I know exactly who is distorting science, and it is not Connett. Paul does the best he can with the available information, knowing that there has never been in all history an actual double blind, placebo controlled, human clinical trial to assess the side effects and dental caries effects of fluoride ingestion.

The facts we do have in well-controlled caged animal studies prove that fluoride ingestion does not decrease dental caries and in fact increases the incidence of abnormal dental enamel hypoplasia some refer to as the abnormal condition fluorosis. Indeed in the U.S. the incidence of this abnormality in teens is overwhelming and caused the CDC to recommend lowering the fluoride allowed in water supplies several years ago. But the infusion of any industrial fluoride into a water supply always increases the incidence of dental fluorosis in all cities treated.There are no exceptions.

The FDA has never approved any fluoride for swallowing and recently ruled that the material is a toxic substance that must be regulated by the EPA under theToxic Substances and Control Act. But the EPA does not want to be involved other than to prohibit water from containing more than 2-4 ppm and argues that the FDA needs to regulate the infusions because they are presumed to be an oral ingestible dental prophylactic.

The FDA has never approved any ingested substance for the purpose of dental caries control.

Lifelong ingestion of fluoride is known, in deceased people examined for it, to accumulate in bone to thousands of ppm where it causes formation of bone of poor quality at levels higher than in fluoridated toothpaste but where it does not belong and hss no functional purpose. Fluoride is not a nutrient. It is a toxic substance.

Do fluoridationists care about any of this? Of course not because they twist facts to their own desire and claim that lifelong eating/drinking fluoride is harmless and that caries rates would be higher if you didn't, not realizing that  flossing and brushing remove the bacteria that actually cause dental caries. Caries are not caused by lack of fluoride.

Fluoridation of people is a mental error, and no government agency accepts liability, not only for visible dental fluorosis but for any adverse effects of the ingested waste material. 

Protect bones in senior citizens because in elderly years bone fractures are most frequently lethal.  Controlled studies with dogs prove that fluoridated  bone takes far longer to heal than nonfluoridated bone. This is not a joke.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Kidneys & Livers Compromised by Fluoridation Policy

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Message 197 of 1,448

How weird - I quote from Malin et al's paper showing that your claims were wrong and I get a personal attack. That's called playing the man and not the ball. Why not deal with what Malin et al actually say?


As for " globe trotting troop of social media commenters who aggressively promote" something. That sounds like a description of Paul Connett who comes to New Zealand every southern summer to promote his misrepresentation of the science. Politicians are so used to his behavior they refuse to listen to him - and much of the reasonable media is the same.

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Re: Kidneys & Livers Compromised by Fluoridation Policy

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Message 198 of 1,448

Fluoride endangers kidneys, threatens thyroids, inflames guts, damages teeth, affects immunity & rewires brains. 

 

 

 

A few other fluoride- kidney studies: 

"F exposure was related to the urinary excretion of early kidney injury biomarkers, supporting the hypothesis of the nephrotoxic role of F exposure."

- Jiménez-Córdova MI et al. Evaluation of kidney injury biomarkers in an adult Mexican population environmentally exposed to fluoride and low arsenic levels. Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology. May 2018. 

 

“Oxidative stress is a recognized mode of action of fluoride exposure that has been observed in vitro in several types of cells and also in vivo in soft tissues such as the liver, kidney, brain, lung, and testes in animals and in people living in areas of endemic fluorosis” 

-  Barbier O, et al. (2010). Molecular mechanisms of fluoride toxicity. Chem Biol Interact. 188(2):319-33

 

 "....the WHO's recommended concentrations in drinking water become nephrotoxic to CKD rats, thereby aggravating renal disease and making media vascular calcification significant." 
- A. Martín-Pardillos et al. in Effect of water fluoridation on the development of medial vascular calcification in uremic rats. Toxicology. 2014 Apr 6;318:40-50

 

"suppression of Bcl-2 expression at both the mRNA and protein levels have been shown to implicate in apoptosis in the NaF-treated renal tubules”

Agalakova NI, Gusev GP. Molecular mechanisms of cytotoxicity and apoptosis induced by inorganic fluoride. ISRN Cell Biology. Volume 2012 (2012).

 

“NaF induces the apoptosis in renal tubules via activation of the Bax expression and Bcl-2 suppression”

Xu H, Jin XQ, Jing L, Li GS. Effect of sodium fluoride on the expression of bcl-2 family and osteopontin in rat renal tubular cells. Biol Trace Elem Res. 2006 Jan;109(1):55-60.

 

“It has been frequently observed that the children suffering from renal impairments also have some symptoms of dental and skeletal fluorosis… A total of 156 patients with childhood nephrotic syndrome were screened and it was observed that 32 of them had significantly high levels of fluoride in urine and serum… Increased levels of apoptosis were observed in high fluoride group compared to normal fluoride group. Various degrees of fluoride-associated damages to the architecture of tubular epithelia, such as cell swelling and lysis, cytoplasmic vacuolation, nuclear condensation, apoptosis, and necrosis, were observed.”

JA Quadri, S Sarwar, A Sinha, M Kalaivani, AK Dinda, A Bagga, TS Roy, TK Das, A Shariff. Fluoride-associated ultrastructural changes and apoptosis in human renal tubule: a pilot study. Human & Experimental Toxicology. 14 Feb 2018; Volume 37, issue 11, pages 1199-1206.

 

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Re: Kidneys & Livers Compromised by Fluoridation Policy

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Message 199 of 1,448

This is misleading. The Malin et al study does not identify "markers in American teens that suggest compromised kidney & liver function." In fact, individuals with liver or kidney disease were excluded from the study.

From the paper:

"this study did not aim to determine whether fluoride exposure
is associated with clinical decrements in kidney function among
U.S. adolescents. Rather, this study aimed to examine subclinical
changes in kidney or liver parameters associated with fluoride exposure
among a generally healthy population. For example, the lowest GFR
estimated in this study was 84 mL/min/1.73m2, and therefore none
were below the<75 mL/min/1.73m2 value considered reflective of
abnormal kidney function. Future prospective studies including participants
with and without kidney disease are needed to assess clinical
changes in kidney or liver function."

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Kidneys & Livers Compromised by Fluoridation Policy

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Message 200 of 1,448

Dental dogma destines teens for kidney and liver disease. 

 

The latest study out today identifies markers in American teens that suggest compromised kidney & liver function that could result in chronic disease later in life. These markers are due to fluoride intake growing up in optimally fluoridated American communities. 

 

Other recent studies have noted the biological damage due to oxidative stress caused by fluoride which has potential for causing all sorts of havoc in the body, including in kidneys, livers, brains and bones. 

 

Frankly, it doesn't matter if the fluoride caused the organ damage or if genetic predilitictions made these inviduals more vulnerable to fluoride poisoning, there are significant percentages of the population who are harmed by fluoridation policy - harm that begins in utero but manifests over a lifetime as chronic disease, disabilities, and even premature death

 

  • Fluoride exposure and kidney and liver function among adolescents in the United States: NHANES, 2013–2016. Ashley J. Malin, Corin Lesseur, Stefanie A. Busgang, Paul Curtin, Robert O. Wright, Alison P. Sanders. Environment International. August 8, 2019 [online ahead of print].  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412019309274 

 

 

  • Waugh DT. Fluoride Exposure Induces Inhibition of Sodium-and Potassium-Activated Adenosine Triphosphatase (Na+, K+-ATPase) Enzyme Activity: Molecular Mechanisms and Implications for Public Health. Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2019, 16(8), 1427.  https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/8/1427 

 

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