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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 101 of 1,334

No true, CarryAnne. Edgar et al do comment on the protective ability of fluoride in saliva. But the report was about saliva, it was not a contribution to the science of tooth decay reduction. The known protective action of fluoride was simply asserted by reference to the literature - it is a well established scientific fact.

But I notice you have given up on your claim that this is about ethics, not science, and taken to using citations as propaganda without any rational analysis.

Now that you have returned to science perhaps you should now respond to my comments on the Bashash studies that you ran away from.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 102 of 1,334

Thanks Carry Anne for understanding. I don't know if this complainer doesn't understand the physiologic functions of saliva, one of which is to wash clean the oral cavity 24 hours a day so that foods are transient residents only, or what his problem is.  At least some people get it.

The NRC obviously could care less what temperaory oral cavity fluoride levels are when saliva is mixed with intentionally chewed fluoride placed inthe mouth. That depends on what you are chewing, from NaF rat poisoin to NaF tablets to fluoride insecticide sprayed foods, to toothpaste to fluoride gels and rinses,etc. Who cares ? Everyone already knows that if you put rat poison in your mouth as NaF or if you eat fluoride containing foods that of course it mixes with saliva and elevates the F concentration of the oral cavity fluid. So what?

  • The NRC wanted to know how much fluoride is in saliva from drinkng water alone, so the formed saliva was analyzed (without food contaminant of courser) to assess how much fluoride comes from drinkng water into saliva to bathe teeth topicallylly. Fluoride from drinking water has absolutely nothing to do with topical effects on teeth caries because  as the NRC reported saliva has (from drinking water) 0.016 ppmfluoride.  How something so obvious cannot be seen by this complainer is bizarre.

And don't go looking for a quoe fomr the NRC that drinkng water fluoride has zero effects on dental caries because the NRC was not allowed to coment on CWF. It was commissioned to investigate health effecfs at the 2 and 4 ppm MCL's EPA currently allows to exist in water. But fortunately there is plenty of cited data where water is 1 ppm to make the conclusion that saliva contains only 0.016 ppm F (the majority coming from drinking water ingestion, not food), which is useless in affecting dental caries at 94,000 times less concentrated than F in toothpaste and a whopping 750,000  times less concentrated than F in gels applied by some dentists for hoped-for topical effects on teeth.

Who cares if fluoride in the oral fluid after eating a meal might be some value say 5 ppm F.? 5 ppm F mixed with saliva having 0.016 ppm from ingesting community fluoridated water makes no signfiicant difference in the F content of the oral fluid to be of any value whatsoever for affecting dental caries.

I wish this complainer could get the picture but as long as you and the public get it, that's fine. The NRC was not allowed to print this conclusion but they were allowed to print the 0.016 ppm fortunately.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 103 of 1,334

80% of dentists get it wrong! The science can only suggest that fluoride may prevent cavities when applied in strong concentrations to dental surfaces. Fluoridation has little to no benefit. Fluoride's benefits are 'predominantly' topical. (Yoder et al. 2007, Pizzo et al. 2007, Müller et al. 2010)

 

But many dentists and other fluoridation stakeholders find the medical myth profitable, and so ignore the science and engage in gaslight tactics and disinformation campaigns. 

 

The only modern saliva reference provided by KenP was a 2012 report from the Wrigley Gum people who said the same thing.... that strong concentrations of fluoride from toothpaste and dental treatments impacts the saliva and may inhibit cavity formation according to the prevailing theory in which there is even less confidence in 2019.

 

The Wrigley report said nothing about fluoridated water contributing to cavity reduction because it can't. The Wrigley Gum authors wrote that less than 0.2% of that fluoride in water at low concentrations gets into the saliva. They even said that fluoride tablets should be dissolved in the mouth rather than swallowed. Yet, fluoridationists add that report onto their documentation as if to prove otherwise. Plus, the fluoride-lobby calls fluoride a nutrient when the U.S. FDA calls it a drug

 

In other words, neither enamel incorporation nor remineralization from fluoride exposure has been proved to have any but neglible benefit, if that. Fluoride is a poison and poisons bacteria when in concentrated dental products. Period. 

 

But THIS ISN'T ABOUT TEETH!

Fluoridation cause disease, disability and premature death in millions.

 

Even if fluoridated water eliminated cavities entirely, it still causes or worsens  thyroid disease, bone disease, kidney disease, autoimmune disease, inflammatory disease, endocrine disease, etc. Fluoridated wastewater also pollutes the planet

 

Community fluoridation is a scientifically and ethically corrupt policy. 

 

Yoder KM, Maupome G, Ofner S, Swigonski NL. Knowledge and use of fluoride among Indiana dental professionals. J Public Health Dent. 2007 Summer;67(3):140-7. 

http://www.NCBI.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17899898

 

Giuseppe Pizzo, Maria Piscopo, Ignazio Pizzo, Giovanna Giuliana, “Community water fluoridation and caries prevention: a critical review,” Clinical Oral invest. 2007, 11:189-193.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17333303

 

Frank Müller, Christian Zeitz, Hubert Mantz, Karl-Heinz Ehses, Flavio Soldera, Jörg Schmauch, Matthias Hannig, Stefan Hüfner, and Karin Jacobs. Elemental Depth Profiling of Fluoridated Hydroxyapatite: Saving Your Dentition by the Skin of Your Teeth? Langmuir 2010 26 (24), 18750-18759. http://www.NCBI.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21090577

 

Agnotology.jpgAgnotology

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 104 of 1,334

Richard, good to see you have moved on and will no longer rely on your irrelevant argument about freshly exuded ductal saliva. You now accept that there is a direct transfer of chemical species to real-world whole saliva from water, bevergaes, food, and oral treaments.

You no appear simply to be denying that fluoride in the oral cavity has a beneficial effect in reducing tooth decay.

Please cite the "NRC" (or more appropriately the original paper) for your claim "that fluoride from drinking water has no topical effect on dental caries."

Because that simply conflicts with a huge amount of research showing that commoinutyw ater fluopdiation is effective in reducing tooth decay.

Come on - a citation - not a poltical/ideological/nonscientific unsupported claim or statement.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 105 of 1,334

I, nor anyone else, would ever claim there is no fluoride in the oral cavity when you eat fluoride containing foods.  Where do you get this stuff?

 

I'm making the point, as did the NRC, that fluoride from drinking water has no topical effect on dental caries. I'm not talking about food fluoride, toothpaste fluoride, gel fluoride, or any other source of F. Surely you can eventually grasp this. lt's amazing that anyone could actually think that I have argued that saliva in the mouth would not contain fluoride when you put fluoride in the mouth from other sources.

Wow

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 106 of 1,334

Richard, the dishonesty is to use the situation with freshly exuded saliva (as you put it fluoride ingested so that we have "filtered blood") to pretend there is no fluoride (or calcium and phosphate) coming from beverages, water (including fluoridated water) food, and oral treatments and contributing directly (not via the blood) to the chemical species concentration is the real-world whole saliva.

I have never argued against the experimentally demonstrated low F content of freshly exuded duct fluoride - never. So it has no direct relevance to this discussion. It is dishonest to continually revert to that argument as a way of refusing to front up to the role that water, beverages, food, and oral treatments play in increasing the concentration of chemical species in the real-world whole saliva.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 107 of 1,334

There is nothing dishonest about it. As you say, fluoride from drinkng water that is assmilated into the blood and filters into 24 hour a day continuous fluoridated saliva, at 0.016 ppm, is unable to affect dental caries. Voila. Fluoridated water is useless.

If you want to change the topc to effects on teeth of eating fluoride rich foods, this has nothing to do with fluoride from water. If you want to fight dental decay, stop eating sugar withuot brushing afterward. Eating foods with fluoride has nothing to do with "community water fluoridation". 

It is CWF that we object to on this site. If you want to eat fluoride do so, that is your business.  But everyone has to drink water and when the only source in your home is fluoridated by the cilty, then you are trapped into consuming lifelong something that is useless. And which incorporates into bone to thousands of mg/kg during lifelong drinking. 

End useless CWF. End of story. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 108 of 1,334

Bill, you have simply resorted to a political/ideological statement and refused to respond to my request you provide scientific support. I repeat:

"As it stands it is simply a declaration - which is ideological/political. It is certainly not a substantiated scientific statement.

You could support your claim in either of two ways:

1: Provide the list of samples with the treatments (actually this should be available but not expected to be published);

2: Cite the infinite confidence intervals that would result if this claim were true."

Now, on the basis of the confidence intervals, I know your political/ideological/nonscientific statement is false. And your refusal to respond indicates to me you know that as well.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 109 of 1,334

No Richard - this is not true - "So I've made the point. Fluoride from fluoridated drinking water that enters into saliva to bathe teeth topically continuously 24 hours a day makes no significant contribution to affect dental caries."

The point you have made is that fluoride in freshly exuded duct saliva (the "
direct filtrate of the blood") does not make a contribution. That is, ingested fluoride transferred from the blood to freshly exuded saliva is of so low a concentration it does not contribute to the protective effect of fluoride.


That is something I have never disagreed with. Never. That argument is a straw man and you should be ashamed to have to fall back on it. The dishonesty is that you continue to pretend I am referring to this freshly exuded saliva when I am talking about the whole saliva in the mouth which has received direct inputs of chemical species from food, water, beverages, and oral treatments - throughout the day.

The composition of directly exuded saliva has no DIRECT relevance to the composition of real-world salvia.

It has INDIRECT relevance in that freshly exuded duct saliva causes the lowering of the concentration of chemical species in real-world saliva after every meal, drink, and oral treatment. Just as it causes the lowering of acidity in real-world saliva as a result of bacterial activity after a meal.

 

But only a fool would argue that this means that acid from bacterial production or fluoride, phosphate, and calcium from food, drink, and oral treatments have no effect on the surface of teeth.

I have never made claims about the "direct filtrate of the blood." I have made that clear again and again. it is dishonest to use this irrelevant situation to deny the real world truth.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 110 of 1,334

The FDA knows that fluoridated antibiotics, and other fluoride meds, can kill or cause all kinds of harm, but "let’s just change the labels"! Then again, the FDA has never approved any fluorides, because “fluoride” is a protected pollutant. Thus, there has never been any clinical trials for “safety or effectiveness” of fluoride pollution for the stated purpose by the government (note: all fluorides are fluorine compounds). https://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm611032.htm

 

Fluoridation was always a fraud and no-one is liable! The herd is willing to ingest industrial waste in the water supply, when an authoritative body tells them these category 6 poisons (by law) are "good for the teeth'...HA! See Ciprofloxacin (and the other fluoroquinolones) deplete mitochondrial DNA. https://floxiehope.com/2015/02/24/study-finds-that-ciprofloxacin-depletes-mitochondrial-dna/

 

Also, both the FDA and the CDC are fundamentally corrupt agencies. 

CHECK OUT THE NUMEROUS LINKS BELOW ABOUT CORRUPTION AT THE FDA & THE CDC. Each example will demonstrate when the CDC & the FDA had deliberately altered or withheld scientific evidence in a bid to misinform the public. The FDA buries evidence of fraud in medical trials. For more than a decade, the FDA has shown a pattern of burying the details of misconduct. Note: If any of the links do not work, please just google corruption in the FDA or CDC. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/hidden-conflicts-pharma-payments-fda-advisers-after-drug-app...

 

Big Pharma Officially Owns The FDA:

http://yournewswire.com/big-pharma-officially-owns-the-fda/

 

Big contributions to senators who are supposed to question pharma companies:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatindera/2019/02/26/these-senators-received-the-biggest-checks-fr...

 

https://gizmodo.com/big-pharma-gives-big-money-to-the-senators-who-will-que-1832891994?fbclid=IwAR0F...

 

For your protection: The lies and deception of the CDC https://www.sott.net/article/285703-For-your-protection-The-lies-and-deception-of-the-CDC

 

Total corruption: Drug companies bought their way onto FDA advisory panels.

It is now an undeniable fact that the pharmaceutical industry weaseled its way onto key U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) advisory panels, which were instrumental in shaping the way drugs are safety tested and approved. According to The Washington Post (WP), a recent public records request has revealed that drug companies purchased special access onto these panels, where they were given the keys to the kingdom in swaying decision-makers about official drug policy.

 

The FDA continues to be one of the most dangerous government agencies in the United States. The sheer scope of people it affects with its corruption is staggering. Constitutional Attorney on US Federal Drug Administration (FDA) Corruption, Disinformation and Cover Up of Health Dangers

http://www.globalresearch.ca/constitutional-attorne…/5430348

 

FDA Let Drugs Approved on Fraudulent Research Stay on the Market https://www.propublica.org/article/fda-let-drugs-approved-on-fraudulent-research-stay-on-the-market?...

 

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