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Re: Stop Fluoridation

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Message 111 of 1,331

Bill -please support your claim - "All the people in the Broadbent study were on extra fluoride."

As it stands it is simply a declaration - which is ideological/political. It is certainly not a substantiated scientific statement.

You could support your claim in either of two ways:

1: Provide the list of samples with the treatments (actually this should be available but not expected to be published);

2: Cite the infinite confidence intervals that would result if this claim were true.

I have not seen the specific individual data and have no interest in attempting to get it. But I have seen the statistical analysis and the results a quite inconsistent with your claim.

So I can only conclude you have pulled that claim out of thin air, or somewhere else. It is certainly not factual.

I am unaware of questions I have asked you that refer to - except to deal with my comments on the Bashash studies. These were what motivated you to intervene in my discussion with CarryAnne and you seem completely unaware of the problems in those studies, such as the poor nature of the relationship, the lack of any relationship with child urinary F and the need to consider other important risk-modifying factors like maternal prenatal nutrition.

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Re: Stop Fluoridation

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Message 112 of 1,331

Ken,

 

All the people in the Broadbent study were on extra fluoride.  

 

If everyone in the study is taking fluoride, then detecting an effect from the fluoride is not possible.  

 

And I have failed to see your answers to my questions.  Please post again.  I am busy and don't always read all the posts here, so please also send it to my email at bill@teachingsmiles.com.  

 

And Randy, you want me to take the science to those "experts" who evaluate the science and create the consensus.  Wonderful, please list those individuals or the organizations who create the "consensus."   I've been trying to find them and no one accepts responsibility.   Forward me the names please.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 113 of 1,331

I just wrote to the U.S. CDC to ask them to halt fluoridation again. I hadn't written to them in some time. The resaon I wrote again is because the CDC recently claimed that it is fluoride toothpaste  that is being consumed by children that causese the endemic dental fluorosis problem in the U.S.   I had to show them the Zip[kin study of 1958 before toothpaste fluoride became widely used to show what F content in adult bone where water is 1 ppm fluoride ranged from 1610 - 4920 mg/kg of bone. These were difficult measurements done on live people from bone biopsies and are definitive. This means that along with dental fluorosis (first recognized in teh 1930's as CO brown stain and Texas teeth,  tc. in fluoride water areas before F toothpaste was invented) bone fluoride levels were problems, even more concentated than f in toothpaste, in bone where it does not belong.  Bone pain in some people occurs at only 1700 mg/kg and the NRC concluded that Stage II fluorosis with pain mobility issues occurs typically in most people at 3,500 mg/kg.  So lifelime drinking of the garbage water produces denigrated bone even without fluoridated toothpaste.

But will the CDC do anything about this? Of course not. Am I to remailn silent and ignore the truth? No thanks.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 114 of 1,331

And you can lead a fluoridationist to clean water and he will turn away and consume F'd water anyway because he would think he was missing something and that God didn't Create water properly in the first place. .

Again, how else can one determine the drinking water F concentration to saliva if you don't take saliva samples after the previous materials eaten have been cleared?  There is no other way to delineate whether drinking water fluoride has any value in affecting the F content of the oral cavity. And it clearly has no significant role at all.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 115 of 1,331

I guess it's easy for some people to simply miss the point.

The girls whose night time saliva F levels were measured continuously until the next morning are indeed a normal situation. (No one eats while they are sleeping all night). And night time saliva washes the teeth and oral cavity. 

Of course F levels in the mouth can be high when one goes to sleep for the night after recently eating an F rich material such as toothpaste or dental gel, etc, but again all through the night the F level bathing teeth from the saliva that contains F from 1 ppm drinking water at less than 0.016 ppm in saliva is  a useless contribution.  Fluoridationists might believe that higher F from foods and gels might topically affect teeth, but this has nothing to do with F infused into drinking water which is worthless as a topical effect.

Only ductile fresh saliva could be used to determine how much F actually comes from the bloodstream of a F'd water consumer. There is no other way to determine it because indeed foods and beverages and gels would contaminate the saliva produced. So what?.
Bottom line, F'd water is useless at affecting caries, either systemically (CDC) or topically from that contained in nascent saliva. These are the facts. Again, the F content in the blood and thus the 24 hour a day produced saliva is mostly determined by the F level in the drinking water (NRC) and only 10% or so is from foods/beverages (p. 60, Report on F in Drinking Water 2006). 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 116 of 1,331

Richard, I think you should read the papers. You are stubbornly looking at freshly exuded duct saliva and saliva taken a long distance from drinking and eating. You are stubbornly ignoring the rest of the time where there is a significant elevation of chemical species in saliva phosphate, calcium anbd fluoride which does help reduce acid attack.

Well, you can take a horse to water . . but it seems impossible for an anti-fluoridationist to see the real world situation.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 117 of 1,331

And the Oliveby study provided was discussed in the NRC 2006 Report.  Notice that the "high fluoride water area" had 1.2 ppm F in the water and the night-long F saliva varied from 0.002 ppm to 0.14 ppm. The variation is likely determined by how much water one consumed before bedtime. So what?  The levels are still multiple thousands of times less concentrated than in toothpaste at 1,500 ppm for topical application.   24 hours at 0.016 ppm average from drinking water F in saliva is completely topically worthless. 

 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 118 of 1,331

Richard, you may be persisting in discussing freshly exuded duct saliva but that is pure stubbornness on your part. The scientists involved are discussing real-life saliva in the mouth which has elevated concentration of chemical species form consumption of food, water and beverage, and oral treatments. Also, from CaF2 deposited ion the oral cavity. 

You are simply straw clutching to deny what the science is showing, that fluoride in the oral cavity helps inhibit acid attack and repair after acid attack.

You remind me of the silliness Paulk Connett exhibited when I discussed this with hum - tried to claim that when drinking water none of the water touched the teeth or mixed with saliva. You have to be a determined reality denier to claim that.

Such antics really make a person look silly.

The science shows that food, water, beverages, mouth rinses, etc., all increase the fluoride content of the whole saliva. The concentration in the freshly exuded duct saliva does not prevent this - although over time it helps reduce the concentration of chemical species in the whole saliva.

The concentrations you insist on citing are not for normal situations. The subjects need to have a low fluoride diet and stop using fluoridated toothpaste for some time. Collections are also made at a distance from eating and drinking (usually before a meal).

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 119 of 1,331

Everyone knows that placing high fluoride varnishes or gels or fluoride salt in one's mouth that the saliva is for that time elevated in F. So what? What is being discussed is the 24 hour continuous permanent lifelong saliva F concentration that bathes teeth topically that is a filtrate of the blood. The blood F level in a fluoridated city is about 0.15 ppm with a filtered saliva F level of 0;016 ppm, useless for affecting caries. Notice that the one link describes the 24 hour saliva fluoride level (without eating F gels or varnishes or F rich foods) did not vary (when the drinking water F was not excessively high). So my point is well made yet again, that all night long the F level in saliva does not vary from this low useless level that bathes teeth topically.

Anyone can brush their teeth with 1500 ppm F paste and change their existing saliva F level for the moment. But this has absolutely nothing to do with fluoridated drinking water, where the F in saliva filtrated from the bloodstream after the water is consumed is useless, as we have been correctly saying for years.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 120 of 1,331

Richard, you say "sorry." I wonder if that is a Freudian slip for being so obtuse.

There is nothing groundbreaking about the statement "Saliva F is 24 hrs a day continuous." Of course it is. But the chemical composition of that saliva changes during the day because of inputs from food, beverages, water, and oral treatments.

You and your mates purposely confound freshly exuded saliva with the bulk saliva in the oral cavity.

There is quite a bit of research showing the elevation fo fluoride concentration in saliva resulting from eating food, drink (including fluoridated water), toothpaste use and dental treatments. Some of this research also looks on the relaxation of these concentrations - due to freshly exuded saliva which has low concentrations of fluloide.

 

Read a few papers:

Sjöman, J. H. R., & Twetman, I. S. S. (2006). Fluoride Concentration in Saliva after Consumption of a Dinner Meal Prepared with Fluoridated Salt. Caries Res, 40, 158–162. https://doi.org/10.1159/000091064

 

Zero, D. T., Raubertas, R. F., **bleep**, J., Pederson, A. M., Hayes, A. L., & Featherstone, J. D. B. (1992). Fluoride concentrations in plaque, whole saliva, and ductal saliva after application of home-use topical fluorides. Journal of Dental Research, 71(11), 1768–1775. https://doi.org/10.1177/00220345920710110201

 

Macpherson, L. M. D., & Stephen, K. W. (2001). The effect on human salivary fluoride concentration of consuming fluoridated salt-containing baked food items. Archives of Oral Biology, 46, 983–988. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003996901000401

 

Bruun, C., & Thylstrup, A. (1984). Fluoride in whole saliva and dental caries experience in areas with high or low concentrations of fluoride in the drinking water. Caries Research, 18, 450–456.

 

Eakle WS, Featherstone JDB, Weintraub JA, Shain SG, Gansky SA. (2004). Salivary fluoride levels following application of fluoride varnish or fluoride rinse. Community Dent Oral Epidemiol, 32(13), 462–469. Retrieved from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0528.2004.00185.x

 

Oliveby, A., Twetmanb, S., & Ekstrandc, J. (1990). Diurnal Fluoride Concentration in Whole Saliva in Children Living in a High- and a Low-Fluoride Area. Caries Res, 24, 44–47. Retrieved from https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/261237

 

Edgar, M., Dawes, C., & O’Mullane, D. (2012). Saliva and oral health. Retrieved from http://www.wrigleyoralhealth.com/content/docs/SHL_S_OH_A5_2015_FINAL.pdf#page=53

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