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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 321 of 1,248

Dr. Chuck,

 

"If one can't dispute the facts, attack the messanger or rely on the messanger" appears to be fluoridationists foundation and basis to support fluoridation for everyone regardless of excess exposure.  

 

Neither of you have seriously addressed excess exposure.  60% of adolescents have dental fluorosis, 20% moderate/severe.  

 

When is too much fluoride, too much?   And what public health measure should reduce excess exposure?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 322 of 1,248

"Dismiss ethics, deny science, denigrate opposition, distract focus and disrupt the conversation." - Blueprint for Disinformation Campaigns, aka Propaganda

 

This conversation is about the evidence and ethics surrounding fluoridation, and the evolving professional opinion against fluoridation policy based on emerging peer-reviewed science and relevant data. 

 

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK) is a successful environmental attorney and human rights activist who serves as president of the board of Waterkeeper Alliance, a non-profit environmental group that he helped found in 1999, as well as chairman of the board of the Children's Health Defense Team. RFK was the senior attorney for the  Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) between 1986 - 2017 and is a law professor emeritus at Pace University where he was supervising attorney and co-director of Pace Law School's Environmental Litigation Clinic for many years. I could go on. 

 

Stephen Barrett, who the fluoridationists frequently quote, is a failed doctor who found a way to monetize his opininated vitriol with a blog he named quackwatch. He is frequently sued for defamation and frequently loses. It is assumed that he has special interest backers funding him. See: http://www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm 

 

Chuck Haynie, who brought Barrett into this conversation in keeping with disinformation campaign protocol, is one of a small group of globe trotting fluoridationists whose favorite ploy is disparagment in online venues. See: http://www.crescentcitytimes.com/beware-of-newly-formed-the-american-fluoridation-society/ and http://fluoridealert.org/wp-content/uploads/SalemState2016.09.07.pdf

 

As to fluoride science specific to neurological damage that should interest the AARP and seniors, see this sampling of science items from 2018: 

 

ADULT BRAINS: First long term NaF animal study (10 weeks) using moderate levels of fluoride finds a number of histological changes including in parts of the brain associated with memory and learning, as well as chemical changes affecting brain function. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518317508  

  • Pei Jiang, Gongying Li, Xueyuan Zhou, Changshui Wang, Yi Qiao, Dehua Liao, Dongmei Shi. Chronic fluoride exposure induces neuronal apoptosis and impairs neurogenesis and synaptic plasticity: Role of GSK-3b/b-catenin pathway. Chemosphere. Volume 214, January 2019, Pages 430-435. 

 

ALZHEIMER’S DISEASE: Describes impact of fluoride-induced stress and inflammation in the development of Alzheimer’s disease and demonstrates the mechanism for cell death in the progressive worsening of the disease over time.
https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/19/12/3965 

  • Goschorska M, et al. Potential Role of Fluoride in the Etiopathogenesis of Alzheimer’s Disease. Int. J. Mol. Sci. 2018, 19 (12), 3965. 

 

DEMENTIA: Describes the chemical mechanism by which the effectiveness of the two most popular drugs used to treat Alzheimer’s & other neurodegenerative dementia disease is reduced or blocked by fluoride induced oxidative stress. 
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/16/1/10/htm
 

  • Marta Goschorska, Izabela Gutowska, Irena Baranowska-Bosiacka, et al. Influence of Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitors Used in Alzheimer’s Disease Treatment on the Activity of Antioxidant Enzymes and the Concentration of Glutathione in THP-1 Macrophages under Fluoride-Induced Oxidative Stress. Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health. 2019, 16(1), 10. 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 323 of 1,248

Thanks so much for posting this.   It well illustrates they nature of fluoridation opponents.  Mr. Kennedy also opposes vaccination.  The Fluoride Action Network brags about relationships with many groups taking positions opposite to the overwhelming mainstream consensus. 

 

Successful alt-med marketer, Joseph Mercola is a prime example.  He has a $5.2mil restitution settlement with federal regulators for false advertising.  Read about fluoridation opposing Mercola here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola and here:

 

https://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html

 

Paul Connett has multiple YouTube appearances with conspiracy theorist Alex Jones.  Jones has been removed from multiple social media platforms for his discriminatory and hateful content and dehumanizing language.

 

Paul Connett has been a guest speaker for the 9-11 "truther" Uncensored Magazine,

AARP's policy board as well as average citizens must decide whether to believe America's Pediatricians, Family Physicians and over 140 other prestigious organizations and societies or the likes of Mr. Kennedy and the handful of individuals who oppose what the CDC believes to be one of the great Public Health achievements of the 20th Century.

It seems pretty straightforward to me.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 324 of 1,248

“Dental dogma and authoritative pronouncements aside, fluoride is not a nutrient of any kind - essential, non-essential or micronutrient. Consumption does not provide any dental benefit, and there is no such thing as a fluoride deficiency. Fluoride is best characterized as a poison that is used as a drug in a misguided attempt to prevent cavities.” - prologue to “Open Letter to Nutritionists About the Fluoride Deception” published October 26, 2018 by GreenMedInfo LLC 

 

On January 9, 2019, the Children's Health Defense Team (CHD) led by environmental attorney and human rights activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. made a public statement opposing fluoridation as an unethical human experiment that needs to end. The CHD has answered the call to action in the October 2018 letter signed by leadership in 8 other organizations and in so doing joins a growing list of scientists, medical professionals and organizations who have read the science and oppose fluoridation as a public harm policy. 

 

  • The question is, will the AARP demonstrate the same professional integrity and committment to its constituency? 

 

CHD_RFKjr2019.jpgCHD

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 325 of 1,248

BillO, your quote:  

 

"I answered your question about Dr. Limeback.  

 You are in such a hurry with your bias, that you fail to read the answers to your questions.   

 No sense in responding to you when you don't appear to want to listen."

 

Response:  Please provide the time-stamp reference in this thread where you addressed the deceptive behavior of Dr. Limeback.  I don't see it.  

 

The issue, if you had bothered to read my comment, was that Dr. Limeback allowed a photograph of teeth, which he took, to appear in an article written by attorney Michael Connett.  The teeth were diagnosed by unqualified Mr. Connett as being "Mild Dental Fluorosis."  The most prominent feature of these teeth were orange-brown stains which are believed to be Iron stains.  .  .  .  Please re-read my comment - SLOWLY - so that you can take time to understand what is being said, rather than responding with your classic knee-jerk reaction of trying to establish your superiority.  .  .  Then you may respond to my comment which you said you responded to, but never really did.

 

Your quote:  "You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself.  I can't speak for someone else.  I have not seen the patient.  Looks like dental fluorosis to me and in better light it might be moderate, but certainly mild."


Response.  Looks like dental fluorosis to you.  Since you failed to answer the primary issue, and since you are claiming to be an authority on the issue, let me ask you:  Don't you find it a little deceptive to put a photograph of teeth, whose most noticeable feature are iron stains - which have nothing to do with fluoride - on a website dedicated to abolition of Community Water Fluroidation?   And don't you find it deceptive to put these iron-stained teeth on this Website --- When These Teeth Have Even Never Touched Optimally Fluoridated Water?  


Your quote again:  ""You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself."

Response:  Dr. Limeback refused to engage me when I caught him in a second lie. 

 

He had said, "And there are no studies to show fluoridation has any benefit for adults or seniors.”

 07-24-2018 09:37 PM of this thread - https://community.aarp.org/t5/Brain-Health/Support-for-AARP-to-take-action-on-Fluoridation/td-p/2021...

I pointed his attention to two studies, one by Professor Gary Slade of Adelaide University.  The other demonstrating the benefits of fluoride toothpaste on adults & seniors. 

 

To that, he responded, “This study . .  was a cross-sectional ecological study and not a randomized clinical trial. It stopped at about 40 years of exposure and found only one tooth difference between fluoride and non-fluoride exposed.”

 

To be clear, when he said, “And there are no studies to show fluoridation has any benefit for adults or seniors,” he was fully aware of at least one study which did show benefit to adults & seniors.  Because, how could he explain how he could not be aware of a study and truthfully say that there were no studies of this kind; yet comment on the merits of that study.

In that Limeback lie, there were two logical solutions to the obvious paradox that I caught him in:   1.) Either he was not truthful in his first comment -- He was aware of that study while saying no such study existed; or 2.) he was truthful, he hadn't been aware of the study, and yet he commented on the merits of this study about which he had no knowledge. 

 

It seems that, like most of those in the anti-water-fluoridation fringe group, when his comments are put under scrutiny, Dr. Limeback refuses to engage in discussion and sees the futility of defending what he has said. 

 

  

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 326 of 1,248

David,

 

I answered your question about Dr. Limeback.  

 

You are in such a hurry with your bias, that you fail to read the answers to your questions.   

 

No sense in responding to you when you don't appear to want to listen.

 

David, why don't you present your definition of mild dental fluorosis and what you think the patient has?   

 

You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself.  I can't speak for someone else.  I have not seen the patient.  Looks like dental fluorosis to me and in better light it might be moderate, but certainly mild.  

 

Hardy wrote the best dental school text book on preventive dental care and is the worlds authority on dental fluorosis.   You need to be very slow and confident to dispute Hardy.

 

I don't think you have the credentials, experience, or references to dispute Hardy or anyone else on these comments.

 

Bottom line, too many are ingesting too much fluoride.  

 

Dean JA (10 August 2015). McDonald and Avery's Dentistry for the Child and Adolescent (10th ed.). Elsevier Health Sciences. p. 132. ISBN 978-0-323-28746-3.  is reasonably consistent with others in defining the degrees of dental fluorosis. 

 

Dental fluorosis is discoloration inside the tooth and in some cases, actual physical damage to the teeth.  Severity is dependent on the age, dose, duration, of the individual during the exposure.

 

The "very mild" form of fluorosis, has small, opaque, paper white usually lateral streaks or areas scattered irregularly over the tooth, covering less than 25% of the clinical crown.  

 

In the "mild" form of the disease, these mottled patches can involve up to half of the surface area of the teeth.

 

In the "moderate" more than half of the tooth and all surfaces are affected and teeth may be ground down and/or brown stains frequently "disfigure" the teeth.

 

"Severe" fluorosis is characterized by brown discoloration and discrete or confluent pitting; brown stains are widespread and teeth often present a corroded-looking appearance.

 

Diagnosis coding of the disease Is, ICD-9-cm 520.3, ICD-10 K00.3  (ICD is International Classification of Disease)  

 

Does the picture look like more than 25% of the tooth has white lines? I think so. . . at least mild.

 

Does the picture look like more than 50%.  With careful evaluation of the patient, dry the teeth, get the light good and we might see more than 50% of the tooth showing white lines and that would be moderate.

 

I would rule out very mild or severe dental fluorosis for that patient based on the picture.

 

However, not all teeth fit thedefinition.   For example, I have see mild dental fluorosis with pitting and brown stains in just a small area.  Because it is so small, I would call it mild instead of moderate.  And just saw a patient last week where another dentist called the patient's dental fluorosis mild and she did not have brown stains but significant pitting.  

 

You have fixated on something you are not competent to argue, simply in an attempt to discredit and argue.

 

Have a happy holiday and relax.  Ponder on why 60% of children have dental fluorosis and why?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 327 of 1,248

David,

 

I answered your question about Dr. Limeback.  

 

You are in such a hurry with your bias, that you fail to read the answers to your questions.   

 

No sense in responding to you when you don't appear to want to listen.

 

David, why don't you present your definition of mild dental fluorosis and what you think the patient has?   

 

You don't appear to like my response, so ask Hardy yourself.  I can't speak for someone else.  I have not seen the patient.  Looks like dental fluorosis to me and in better light it might be moderate, but certainly mild.  

 

Hardy wrote the best dental school text book on preventive dental care and is the worlds authority on dental fluorosis.   You need to be very slow and confident to dispute Hardy.

 

I don't think you have the credentials, experience, or references to dispute Hardy or anyone else on these comments.

 

Bottom line, too many are ingesting too much fluoride.  

 

Dean JA (10 August 2015). McDonald and Avery's Dentistry for the Child and Adolescent (10th ed.). Elsevier Health Sciences. p. 132. ISBN 978-0-323-28746-3.  is reasonably consistent with others in defining the degrees of dental fluorosis. 

 

Dental fluorosis is discoloration inside the tooth and in some cases, actual physical damage to the teeth.  Severity is dependent on the age, dose, duration, of the individual during the exposure.

 

The "very mild" form of fluorosis, has small, opaque, paper white usually lateral streaks or areas scattered irregularly over the tooth, covering less than 25% of the clinical crown.  

 

In the "mild" form of the disease, these mottled patches can involve up to half of the surface area of the teeth.

 

In the "moderate" more than half of the tooth and all surfaces are affected and teeth may be ground down and/or brown stains frequently "disfigure" the teeth.

 

"Severe" fluorosis is characterized by brown discoloration and discrete or confluent pitting; brown stains are widespread and teeth often present a corroded-looking appearance.

 

Diagnosis coding of the disease Is, ICD-9-cm 520.3, ICD-10 K00.3  (ICD is International Classification of Disease)  

 

However, not all teeth fit that definition.   For example, I have see mild dental fluorosis with pitting and brown stains in just a small area.  Because it is so small, I would call it mild instead of moderate.  And just saw a patient last week where another dentist called the patient's dental fluorosis mild and she did not have brown stains but significant pitting.  

 

You have fixated on something you are not competent to argue, simply in an attempt to discredit and argue.

 

Have a happy holiday and relax.  Ponder on why 60% of children have dental fluorosis and why?

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

 

 

 

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 328 of 1,248

"CarrieAnne" says, "I'm losing count of how many times DavidF copies and pastes the same character attack in this thread on Dr. Hardy Limeback"

Response:  It's not a character attack if it's true.  If there is anything I have said about anti-water-fluoride leader Dr. Limeback that is incorrect or untrue, please point it out to me and I will be happy to apologize and retract it.

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Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 329 of 1,248

The egregious dishonesty and deception I see is from those who demand water be tainted with industrial fluoride, a toxic calcium chelater in a program that is the bone fluoridation of masses of people without consent.

And here we have one such person, complaining about "deception" from innocent people who merely want clean water not intentionally infused with an EPA contaminant.

Totally nuts.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Message 330 of 1,248

“Compared to dentists, a growing and well-informed public is far more educated about the scientific facts of fluoride and fluoridation. These knowledgeable folks are the same ones the ADA instructs its dentists to denigrate.” - James Maxey, DDS

 

I'm losing count of how many times DavidF copies and pastes the same character attack in this thread on Dr. Hardy Limeback BSc, DDS, PhD, recently retired head of Preventative Dentistry at the University of Toronto. This is consistent with the tactics of fluoridationists and social media trolls who use  denigration as an emotional ploy in order to sow discord and disrupt conversations

 

I suggest Dr. Limeback can speak for himself. See his December 2018 interview wih an FBI analyst about his experience:  https://www.gallico.co/episode-1-hardy-limeback

 

Then there is the position of the IAOMT whose 2017 heavily cited paper can be downloaded from its website. The IAOMT membership is among the thousands of dentists, doctors and scientists opposed to fluoridation based on scientific evidence of harm. Like Dr. Limeback, the IAOMT demonstrates discipline, integrity and courage:  https://iaomt.org/resources/fluoride-facts

 

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