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Gold Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 81 of 300

Yes, wouldn't it be great if every scientist were only good, unbiased, and exclusively truth-seeking?

The evidence that fluoride does NOT cause any bone cancer in humans is incomplete and in fact is in disagreeemnt with other data suggesting it might. The term "strong" is a weighted opinion or educated guess in cases such as this because, again, there are no such things as bone cultures with which one can directly and scientifically attempt to address the question of whether it is causative or not. No mortal human on earth, no matter how good a scientist he thinks he is, understands how bone cells cause the orchestrated formation of bone with the precisly proper shape necessary to serve the purpose it has at any particular bodily location. No one understands.

To say that fluoride does not cause bone cancer would be over-the-top speculation, being in the face of a complete lack of such experimentation even being possible with human tissue that grows during formative years in youth. The idea that there is strong evidence to support such a claim is a group consensus opinion that led to its placement in group 3, and it remains an opinion, in particular since it opposes the animal results that are scientifically demonstrated.

The FDA goes the proper extra mile. When a substance is known to cause adverse health effecs in anmals, the agency assigns that substance into Category X. This category forbids the use of that substance by pregnant women In this group is where fluoride belongs, and indeed in 1966 the FDA banned the sale of all fluoride compounds intendced for ingestion by pregnant women in the U.S. This is because of the known harm to animals at blood levels comarable to that in a fluoride water consumer, coupled with the absolute fact that newborn offspring have zero benefit from beilng fluoridated in the womb. Yes, the CDC and WHO are not the only organizations that make decisions based on group think and consensus. It is a part of life, and frequently wrong and harmful decisions have been made especially in the case of a low level chronic poisonous substance affecting overall health and longevity.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Bronze Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

158 Views
Message 82 of 300

Carrie Anne,

 

You say, “ what right does anyone or any group have to add a drug to my water.”

 

To that I would say, if you believe a minute amount of fluoride in your drinking water is somehow “drugging” you, then you will have to take your argument up with either God of Nature, depending on what you believe, since all drinking water on Earth has some degree of fluoride in it already, and they have been “drugging” you for your entire life. 

 

This is a nonsensical argument you make, Carrie.  You are not being “drugged” when you eat breakfast cereal fortified with vitamins & minerals, when you eat bread with folic acid, or when you drink milk fortified with Vitamin D.  But I understand it’s easy to frighten people by telling them they are being “drugged.”

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Bronze Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 83 of 300

Dr. Sauerheber

 

 You say, “I listed the evidence against fluoride causing human bone cancer already, that prompted the insertion into Group 3. But it is not strong or conclusive.”

 

No, . . . that is not what prompted its insertion into Group 3.  Let’s take a look at the definition of Group 3 which you have already used.  Your quote, copy/pasted from your comment: 

 

“"agents for which the evidence of carcinogenicity is inadequate in humans but sufficient in experimental animals may be placed in this category when there is strong evidence that the mechanism of carcinogenicity in experimental animals does not operate in humans." 

 

Nowhere in that definition is there any mention of any evidence of cancer in humans.  To the contrary.  Read it.  The definition of a Group 3 carcinogen is that there is “inadequate” evidence of cancer in humans.  It doesn’t say there is “weak or inconclusive” evidence.  It also says there is Strong Evidence that the mechanism of carcinogenicity does Not operate in humans.  In other words, there is strong evidence against the possibility of cancer being caused by the substance.  These are two distinctly different things.

 

Caffeine is listed as a Group 3 carcinogen.

 

I would think that a true scientist would look at the facts as they are and objectively draw a conclusion instead of twisting and distorting definitions in order to fit an agenda.

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Social Butterfly

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

161 Views
Message 84 of 300

“We too often bind ourselves by authorities rather than by the truth.” -  Lucretia Mott (1793-1880)

 

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” —Albert Einstein

 

Truth doesn’t change. What changes is how people, including doctors and scientists, see the truth - how they interpret the data. We've several scientists on this forum thread and thousands of scientists across the country who are definitive in their professional and scientific evaluation of the evidence, that fluoridation is a harmful policy - and that includes scientists in essentially every organization supporting fluoridation. Two dentists and a doctor in my town have privately encouraged me to keep up the fight because they know the truth  is fluoride is harmful to health and does not provide any dental benefit, but none of them will say so publicly. 

 

However, forget about the scientific evidence for a moment. Consider the morality - what right does anyone or any group have to add a drug to my water that is medically contraindicated for me and my grandchildren because they believe it might prevent a cavity in some neighbor's kid who doesn't brush his teeth! 

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Gold Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 85 of 300

I listed the evidence against fluoride causing human bone cancer already, that prompted the insertion into Group 3. But it is not strong or conclusive. Bone cancer prior to water fluoridation was essentially non-existent in the U.S. Now we have cases of it. In 1989 there were 1,300 lethal cases. I don't know if fluoride was involved, I can't prove it veyonod doubt of course, but I also cannot use the fact that over 99% of the population don't get it proves that no one has or will. In mammals it takes fluoride exposure for typically 1/3 of its entire lifespan to induce it significantly. These are well controlled experiments with caged creatures, only possible with lab animals.

Yes, fluoride in toothpaste is over 2,000 times more concentrated than that in fluoridated water, which demonstrates why fluoride in water is useless in preventing caries. But it is not an argument that fluoride cannot cause bone cancer. First of all, enamel is a covering that efficiently protects underlying bony dentin, and fluoride ion is unable to pass through enamel into dentin. Topical fluoride through oral surfaces can enter the bloodstream of course, but only ingested systemic fluoride substantially accumulates into bone (i.e. from swallowing toothpaste or drinking/eating fluoridated water and foods). Of all the fluoride in the blood of a consumer living on 1 ppm fluoridated water, only 15% comes from toothpaste use (NRC, 2006).

The reasons to denounce water fluoridation are massive, and cancer is not one that necessarily needs to be argued. For example, fluoride ingestion does not significantly affect dental decay (Teotia;Ziegelbecker;Sutton;Yiamouyiannis, etc), but does efficiently cause bone quality deterioration from lifelong ingestion. Why would anyone marginilize bone health when there are excellent simple methods to maintain dental health without fluoride ingestion? (brushing after eating sugar or avoiding sugar, etc.). Normal enamel is calcium phosphate and does not contain fluoride as a necessary ingredient. Same with bone- - fluoride is a contaminant, not a nutrient.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Bronze Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

187 Views
Message 86 of 300

Your point is taken, Dr. Sauerheber.  However, substances are placed into Group 3 when “there is strong evidence that the mechanism of carcinogenicity in experimental animals does not operate in humans.

 

You are quite right when you say that, “intentional exposures in intact live humans would be unethical.” 

 

Nevertheless, strong evidence does exist that using tobacco causes cancer.  Where does this evidence come from?  No one is intentionally, unethically exposing people to tobacco to come up with an answer.  The evidence comes from stats like this:  As of 2014, 16.8% of the population of the United States used tobacco.  A lot of people use this stuff.  That’s how we know.

 

But what about fluoride?

 

In the U.S., 69% of the population (224,733,000 people) expose themselves to a substance which has about 2000 times more of a concentration of fluoride in it than optimally fluoridated water (which is what we are talking about here).  This substance, toothpaste, is brushed up against and into the teeth and into the thin membrane of the gums, in proximity to the upper and lower jaw bones.

 

Many of these people use electric toothbrushes which serve to more efficiently grind this substance into the thin lining of the gums.    

 

Now think about that.  About a quarter of a billion people (in this country alone) are brushing 2000 times the concentration of fluoride as optimally fluoridated water directly into their teeth and gums twice a day, every day, for their entire lives, against the mandible and maxilla, simply by brushing their teeth.

 

We know that chewing tobacco will cause bone loss simply because users place it into their mouths.  So we know that the mandible is injured by tobacco via the thin lining of the gums.  In light of that fact, I have to wonder why toothpaste doesn’t cause this bone cancer, in the same area that chewing tobacco injures bone, that you are so worried about. 

 

With a Quarter Billion people who grind toothpaste into their teeth & gums every day, why don’t we know that toothpaste (with 2000 x the concentration of fluoride as fluoridated water) causes bone cancer in the upper & lower jaw bones?  We don’t know it because it doesn’t happen.  This is why hospitals aren’t over-run with bone-cancer victims who brush their teeth every day.  And I would consider a Quarter Billion people unharmed, who use a high concentration of fluoride every day, twice a day, “strong evidence that the mechanism of carcinogenicity does not operate in humans from the use of fluoride. 

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Info Seeker

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

196 Views
Message 87 of 300

There will always be a few cranks in any organization who will take contrarian positions.  The simple facts are these:

1. The vast majority of peer-reviewed studies in quality journals support the safety, efficacy, and cost-effectiveness of fluoridation in preventing dental decay.  This includes the prevention of root-surface decay in older individuals.

2. Every major health-care organization with a position on fluoridation of drinking water supports the practice, as did every U.S. Surgeon General for decades.

3. The U.S. Centers for Diease Control and Prevention hailed community water fluoridation as one of the 10 most important public health measures of the 20th Century.

Don't let the fear-mongers fool you.

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Bronze Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

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Message 88 of 300
The point is that taken as a whole the literature on fluoride and cancer is held by expert panel reviews to be unrelated.

Because hydrofluorosilicic acid and its salts completely and irreversibly dissociate in water, there is no need to study that because fluoridated water has only fluoride ions. It has been conclusively proven by the Nuclear Magnetic Resonance work of Finney et al (2006) (Reexamination of hydrofluorosilicic hydrolysis by 19F NMR and pH measurement) that there is complete decomposition of fluorosilicate species at neutral pH values on dilution in water. They also showed the presence of surviving fluorosilicate species at low pH values (3 and below) which is irrelevant for water treatment which by quality regulation is neutral pH..

It is disappointing that fluoridation opponents continually demand specific study of hydrofluorosilicic acid in drinking water when the complete decomposition and Finney's NMR study has been explained many many times. HFSA components are simply not in a simple equilibrium relationship following hydrolysis. One cannot study something that doesn't exist.

C. Haynie, M.D.
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Gold Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

204 Views
Message 89 of 300

Yes. And notice that fluoride is listed as a Group 3 carcinogen. This is because the cancer causation demonstrated in animals is not necessarily adequately known to occur in humans. Note the recognized description for group 3:

 

"agents for which the evidence of carcinogenicity is inadequate in humans but sufficient in experimental animals may be placed in this category when there is strong evidence that the mechanism of carcinogenicity in experimental animals does not operate in humans." 

 

Why ask me to contact the WHO? I didn't do the research work with fluoride on animal cancers. And intentional exposures in intact live humans would be unethical. There is no method of growing bone cells in culture to do fluoride cancer caausing screening assays, so one can put all their eggs in one basket and rely on standard tissue culture tests and hope that bone cells would also follow the same result, but I wouldn't. Bone tissue is far different than other tissues and accumulates fluoride like a sponge compared to other tisssues.

So the WHO leaves it listed as a group 3 carcinogen but this is because everyone wants to have the full answer immediately, even when the full answer may never be known.

As for me, I do not accept that fluoride had absolutely no involvement in any way with Ted Kennedy's son getting bone cancer in Boston after fluoridation began there when he was a young child . Yes lethal bone cancer is extremely rare (thank God), but the most efficient way to generate it in animals is with chronic fluoride exposure for years. I don't rely on organizations to make a final decree for any issue that is technically nearly impossible to fully prove beyond doubt.

 

Fluoride is not a nutrient and is only a contaminant in the human body. It is in bone where it does not belong and causes formation of poor qualty bone structure.  I choose not to ingest it, but certainly wish the water district would leave my kitchen sink alone, with sterile water that is otherwise clean and devoid of added chemicals, rather than what they insist on me buying, or else I get no tap water at all because fluoridationists insist (unlawfully) it be fluloridated.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
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Bronze Conversationalist

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

231 Views
Message 90 of 300

Bill O & Dr. Sauerheber,

 

The World Health Organization and the IARC have presented lists of known and possible carcinogens, categorized into 5 groups.   The lists are comprehensive and exhaustive.  The IARC list includes 1006 substances, and the WHO list includes 983 substances.  https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/10/26/the-carcinogens-identified-world-health-organization/Ad...

 

Group 1 includes substances that are known to cause cancer.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IARC_Group_1_carcinogens

 

Group 2A includes materials in which the Agency is less certain about cancer.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IARC_Group_2A_carcinogens

 

Group 2B includes substances in which there is even less certainty.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IARC_Group_2B_carcinogens

 

Group 3 includes materials which are “non classifiable.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IARC_Group_3_carcinogens

 

And there is one material listed in Group 4 which is considered “probably not carcinogenic.”  It is Caprolactam.  

 

You will not find Fluoride on any of these all-inclusive, far reaching lists.  I suggest you take your spin to the IARC, the World Health Organization, or the American Cancer Society and try to convince them.  They all disagree with you, as do all experts in the field of Cancer Research.

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