AARP and the photographers of Magnum Photos look at older people living in new ways around the world in A New Age.

Reply
Regular Social Butterfly
3
Kudos
687
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

687 Views
Message 1271 of 1,364

Two more points. Yes there is no Constitutional right for anyone to decide what the chemical composition of their drlnkin water is--that is not specifically itemized in the Constitution. So why then do fluoride promoters presume the right to force homeowners to accept water treaed with exogenous fluoride from fluosilci cacid waste? There is no Constitutional right for it.

 

Second, the NRC concluded that the current EPA allowed maximum contaminant level goal for fluoride in drinking water is not fully protecifve of human health and should be lowered (p. 352). This is because longterm fluoride intake at that level is known to cause stage II skeletal fluorosis. The tabulated data indicaed bone pain at levels far lower than the aveage lbone level listed in the text for cuasing bone pain. 

And the secondary macimum contaminant level also was concluded to not completely prevent modeate dental ene mal fluorosis (which is enamel hypoplasia).

The committee was not allowed to evaluate water fluoridation at 1 ppm but did publish much daa of advese heatlh effects in consumers of 1 ppm fluoride water. At this concentration, parathryod hormone and calcitonin are both elevated in consumers, as is thyroid stimulating hormone particularly in those with insufficient dietary iodine, and ingested fluoride at any concentration accumulates in bone,  forms bone of poor qualit,y and is not removable with normal biochemical mechanisms. 

Richard Sauerheber, Ph.D.
Report Inappropriate Content
3
Kudos
687
Views
Bronze Conversationalist
1
Kudos
721
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

721 Views
Message 1272 of 1,364
Doull's reply was in the context of the 4 ppm and greater fluoride concentrations which was the Committee's charge. They collected all of the available literature without regard to quality or relevance.

It is a straightforward fact that the final NRC opinion was that the EPA's maximal allowed fluoride of 4 ppm (nearly 6x higher than fluoridation) protects human health from disease save for severe enamel fluorosis.

Anyone who wants to verify exactly what the NRC concluded can listen to the summarization in this press conference:

https://www.nap.edu/webcast/webcast_detail.php?webcast_id=325
Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
721
Views
Silver Conversationalist
1
Kudos
764
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

764 Views
Message 1273 of 1,364

Bill, first of  all, you need to cease attempting the “poor victim” tactic of claiming personal attacks when there are none.  Such  tactics do not belong in intelligent discourse.  Attacking the misinformation you post does not constitute a personal attack, and the posting of false claims and misinformation does not make you a “messenger”.  

 

1.  As I have clearly stated, the out-of-context quote you posted is nothing but the personal opinions of 3 justices of the NZ Supreme Court, while you conveniently omitted  the opinion of another, which differed  from those 3.  Such opinions are just that....opinions.  They carry no more weight than do the opinions of anyone else, and confirm nothing.  What does  confirm, and carry the weight of law, is the ruling by these justices that the arguments made to overturn the lower court rulings against the antifluoridationists were without merit, that the appeal was rejected, and that the lower rulings stand.  

 

There is nothing accurate about posting out-of-context quotes and implying them to be legal rulings.  

 

2.  What you personally call anything is irrelevant, and does not represent what “In the USA we call”  anything, whatsoever.  Your personal nomenclature has no bearing on this discussion.

 

3.  There are no drugs involved in water fluoridation, thus, there is no “drug approval process”  necessary for this initiative.

 

The  US FDA has no jurisdiction over the content of drinking water supplies.  What the FDA approves or does not approve has no relevance to optimal level fluoride in public water supplies.  This is fact.   

 

That said, the FDA does have jurisdiction over consumable retail products.  This includes fluoridated bottled water.  The FDA has approved the following claim to be made about this water:  “Drinking fluoridated water may reduce the risk of [dental caries or tooth decay].” 

 

Obviously, the FDA has no problem with fluoride in water at the appropriate concentration.  It is a mystery as to why you believe they do.

 

4.  Yes, I’m aware that Paul Connett has recently resumed the position of FAN Director from which he had retired.  Do you deny that you were the Director, or Interim Director,  of FAN during a portion of the time after he retired?

 

Given that the AEHSP has no apparent function other than to cloak FAN, thereby keeping FAN finances hidden from public scrutiny,  and that the Board of Directors of AEHSP is the same as that for FAN, your extensive involvement with that antifluoridationist group is clear. 

 

5.  I have no desire  to talk about, “dentistry, fluoride, or other issues” with you.  I simply correct the misinformation you post.

 

6.  Your obsession with people attacking other people is somewhat bizarre, as I see no evidence of that occurring here.

 

7.  The only dental fluorosis which may be associated with optimally fluoridated water is mild to very mild, a barely detectable effect which causes no adversity on cosmetics, form, function, or health of teeth.  This level of dental fluorosis requires no treatment.   If you are cutting down mildly fluorosed teeth and placing veneers as you have implied in the past needs to be done for such teeth,  then you are arguably committing malpractice and your state dental board should be notified.  

 

8. While I appreciate your being the sole FAN associate having the courage to finally comment on the NTP study, your arguments against it are not very compelling, to say the least.

 

 

A.  First of all, the result of the initial NTP literature review was not “ ‘moderate’ evidence of developmental neurotoxicity from fluoride.”  as you claim.  It was a reported finding of  moderate level of evidence suggesting adverse cognitive effect in animals exposed to fluoride as adults, and low level of evidence suggesting cognitive impairment in animals exposed during development. Given that you, yourself, claim in this comment that “it would seem reasonable to test the effects of fluoride when the neurological system was in its most critical developmental phases.”, then the lowest level of evidence for cognitive impairment was in the group you admit to being the most  critical.  

 

B.    That you are not aware of any animals “more resistant to the effects of fluoride than the one they chose” is not a very convincing argument.  Assumedly, you are not an expert in the physiology and pharmacokinetics of rats relative to all other animals.

 

C. You instigated the NTP review.  FAN touted and promoted the study, lavishing praise onto the “cutting edge scientific tools” and integrity which the NTP would employ in this study.  Now that the results of the study found no evidence to support  FAN claims of neurotoxicity  or other purported adverse effects of fluoride in these animals, you deem the study to have had serious limitations, and the methodology of the NTP researchers to have been flawed.   

 

Hmmm......Perhaps you should have found a more competent and reliable toxicology program than the NTP  to have performed the study you requested.   Oh, wait.....there is no such entity.

 

D.  Anecdotal claims about what the NTP told you really have no relevance at this point.

 

9.  There is no medicine involved in water fluoridation.  There are simply fluoride ions, identical to those which have always existed in water.  Your claim of “so little research” could not be any more ludicrous.  Water fluoridation has been the most studied public health initiative in history.  PubMed lists over 50,000 studies on fluoride.

 

“So little research”??  Seriously, Bill?

 

10. Your consent is not required for local officials to approve the concentration level of existing fluoride in public water supplies under their jurisdiction.  If you don’t want to consume such water, then don’t.  Entirely your choice.

 

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
764
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
3
Kudos
858
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

858 Views
Message 1274 of 1,364

Dr. Slott,

 

Yes I agree with you the court dismissed the cases.  However, I think you will agree that the quote I cut and pasted that fluoridation is a medicine, is accurate. 

 

In the USA we call medicines . . . drugs.   The FDA (Food and Drug Administration) has jurisdiction over drugs in the USA and has not approved the ingestion of fluoride with the intent to prevent dental caries. . . no NDA . . . no drug approval process. 

 

Why have proponents never received FDA approval to ingest the fluoride drug?  FDA has rejected approval because the evidence of efficacy is "incomplete."  The FDA calls unapproved drugs "illegal."   

 

When people attack the messenger, it is a loud statement they don't have the evidence to counter the message.

 

Paul Connett PhD is Director of FAN.  I'm too busy treating patients. . . some with dental fluorosis.  I am Board Chair of the organization (AEHSP) over FAN.  If you want to talk about dentistry, fluoride or other issues, I'm with you.  If you want to attack people, I'm not interested. 

 

You asked about the NTP study.  Good question.  Three steps to their review.  The first part of the NTP review was available animal studies.  The result was "moderate" evidence of developmental neurotoxicity from fluoride. 

 

Second, NTP proposed to do research to fill in one or more gaps in the animal research.  The resulting NTP study is the study you are refering to and I will comment on it below.

 

Third part of the report is a review of the human research.  The human research review was to come out late 2017 and did not.  I contacted NTP and was told Spring of 2018.  We are not past Spring and I expect the report anytime.  Why the delay?  The NTP told me that should the human research also show a "moderate" risk, both animal and human moderates would indicate fluoride is designated as a developmental neurotoxicant. 

 

You ask specifically about the animal study NTP did on animals.  The study has serious limitations, in my opinion.  A big one was the choice of animals.  I don't know of any animal more resistant to the effects of fluoride than the one they chose.  The second item I objected to in their study was the age of the animals tested. 

 

Because the testing was for "developmental neurotoxic" effects, it would seem reasonable to test the effects of fluoride when the neurological system was in its most critical developmental phases.  Avoiding giving fluoride to the animals while during the development of the neurologic system would make no sense.   NTP started the study after the animals were weened.  In other words, prenatal and early development of the neurologic system was not included in the study.  Many children get a huge dose of fluoride when fluoridated water is mixed with formula rather than breast fed (mother's milk contains almost no fluoride.) 

 

The study is not without merit, simply has limitations.  In fact, the results help us focus on the possibility of the most harm happening during early exposure, consistent with the Bashash human study and others.  If we are going to test the effect of fluoride on development, the fluoride should be given during development. . . wouldn't you agree?   And because fluoride affects the genetic systems, a good study would start prior to conception and the development of the sperm and egg in dad and mom. 

 

So much to learn about fluoride which science has not even begun to explore.  Sad that tradition forces people to ingest a medicine with so little research which has had mixed results.

 

I do not give my consent to be medicated with fluoridated water.

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH 

 

Report Inappropriate Content
3
Kudos
858
Views
Silver Conversationalist
1
Kudos
867
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

867 Views
Message 1275 of 1,364

Gee, Karen.  So now correcting the patently false claims made by you and your New Zealand antifluoridationist counterparts, is somehow “legal doublespeak”??  

 

Because you fail to understand legal rulings which you garble and misrepresent, does not mean that intelligent readers have the same failing.  

 

Now, in regard to the false claims you have posted in this latest comment:

 

1.  There is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any medical contraindication for consuming optimally fluoridated water, and the only thing “ill-advised” associated with fluoridation is according any credence, whatsoever, to the false claims and misinformation put forth by activists such as you who have no regard for truth and accuracy.

 

2.  The “immoral mandate” is that attempted by antifluoridatinsts who seek to impose their decades-old personal ideology onto entire populations, thereby depriving those citizens of the very valuable dental decay prevention benefitting nearly 75% of the United States.

 

3.  Fluoride ions have  always existed in water.  To suddenly proclaim them to be a drug, is obviously ludicrous.

 

4.  There is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any adverse effect of fluoride build up from optimally fluoridated water, or of any harm to anyone, anywhere who “have consumed it for decades”.

 

5.  Aside from the obvious health danger of so doing, your recklessly dispensing medical recommendations to senior citizens when you have no credentials, knowledge  or qualifications to do so could be considered to be practicing medicine without a license, thereby potentially exposing you to criminal prosecution, and liability claims.  That you are doing so is especially egregious and dangerous given the the recommendations you are providing are contradictiry to accepted medical standard of care.  

 

The reality is that there  is no valid, peer-reviewed scientific evidence of any adverse effect from optimally fluoridated water on senior citizens, or anyone else, “with arthritis, kidney disease, denentia, thyroid, cancer, IBD, etc”.  It is against the standard of care to recommend against consuming fluoridated water.  

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

Report Inappropriate Content
1
Kudos
867
Views
Bronze Conversationalist
2
Kudos
906
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

906 Views
Message 1276 of 1,364
Say America's pediatricians through the American Academy of Pediatrics: "Fluoride plays a very important role in the prevention of dental caries."

"Water fluoridation is a cost-effective means of preventing dental caries, with the lifetime cost per person equaling less than the cost of 1 dental restoration. In short, fluoridated water is the cheapest and most effective way to deliver anticaries benefits to communities."

America's Internal Medicine specialists whose main mission is the medical care for older people agree. The American Academy of Family Physicians did their own systematic review before deciding to advocate for fluoridation.

Physicians are not stupid lemmings. They only wish the best for their patients. If the views in this "discussion" were the truth the physician's support of fluoridation would evaporate.

These arguments well illustrates that fluoridation opponents actually believe that somehow state and federal health agencies, aided by these many expert scientific communities are lying and helping to poison over 2000 million Americans.

This is pure crackpottery.
Report Inappropriate Content
2
Kudos
906
Views
Bronze Conversationalist
2
Kudos
1118
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

1,118 Views
Message 1277 of 1,364
Appeal and Supreme Courts across the US have ruled that fluoridation is not mass medication, forced or otherwise. Three of the reasons are:
1. No one is forced to consume tap water.
2. Fluoride ions are naturally present in tap water. Fluoridation is the adjustment of a naturally occurring mineral.
3. Fluoride is an approved water additive regulated in the same manner as all the some 45 others.
4. There is no constitutionally guaranteed individual right to choose the chemical composition of tap water.
5. Water providers have a right and obligation to determine the composition of their product within the standards defined by law.

Here are some representative quotes from the Oregon Supreme Court.
BAER v. CITY OF BEND

"the fluoridation measure passes the test of reasonableness."

(fluoridation is) "no more practicing medicine or dentistry or manufacturing, preparing, compounding or selling a drug, than a mother would be who furnishes her children a well-balanced diet."

"But the liberty secured by the Constitution ..does not import an absolute right in each person to be ..wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good."

"Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy."

"Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own regardless of the injury that may be done to others."
Report Inappropriate Content
2
Kudos
1118
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
2
Kudos
1135
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

1,135 Views
Message 1278 of 1,364

Neither legal doublespeak nor argument over the quality of specific studies has anything to do with the purpose of the AARP forum or this thread. 

 

  1. Fluoridation is medically contraindicated for many, ill advised for others and an immoral medical mandate.
  2. Fluoride is an inflammatory drug that builds up in bodies, brains and bones, making it particularly harmful to Baby Boomers who have consumed it for decades. 

Senior citizens with arthritis, kidney disease, dementia, thyroid disease, cancer, IBD, etc. should not be consuming fluoridated water. Period

 

 P.S. Also immaterial is whether someone is a member of an advocacy group like AFS or an activist group like FAN. Integrity on the other hand is material.
AARP - where do you stand?  

 

 

Report Inappropriate Content
2
Kudos
1135
Views
Highlighted
Silver Conversationalist
2
Kudos
1156
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

1,156 Views
Message 1279 of 1,364

Bill, as a point of clarification, while you may claim to be a “former fluoride promoter” at some point in the past,  the fact is that you are the former Director of the New York antifluoridationist faction, FAN.

 

Yes, there were two decisions, by the NZ Supreme Court.  I have, of course, seen both, and understand, as apparently you do not, that both rulings rejected the arguments of the antifluoridationists, and upheld the lower rulings that:

 

1.  The Tanaki Council did, indeed, have the authority to fluoridate its water system,

 

2.  That the fluoridation substances are not medicine under the Medicine Act.  

 

What you have posted here are out-of-context opinions of justices, not their ruling.  You have also conveniently omitted the opinion of the other justice which differred from them.  However, none of them  “confirm” anythng, and are simply opinions expressed to explain their reasoning in reaching a final ruling against the antifluoridationists.  The following is the summary in complete and proper context:

 

“After a series of cases that have been running since 2014, the Supreme Court has released two decisions dismissing New Health New Zealand Inc's various challenges to drinking-water fluoridation.

The Court dealt with the claims in two separate judgments. In the first judgment the Court addressed New Health's challenge to South Taranaki District Council's decision to fluoridate drinking-water supplies in Patea and Waverley. In particular, the Court addressed New Health's claims:

  • That the Council did not have the necessary statutory powers to fluoridate drinking-water supplies
  • That mass water fluoridation breached the right to refuse medical treatment, as set out in section 11 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (BORA).

Although their reasoning sometimes differed, all of the Justices except Elias CJ agreed that the Council did have the necessary statutory powers to fluoridate drinking-water supplies.

On the BORA point, the analysis was complex. William Young J agreed with the Court of Appeal's finding that water fluoridation is not a medical treatment for the purpose of section 11. In contrast, the other Justices found that drinking-water fluoridation is a medical treatment. However, O'Regan and France JJ concluded that, despite engaging section 11: "the provisions authorising the fluoridation of drinking water limit the s 11 right only to an extent that is demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society for the purposes of s 5 of [the BORA]". Glazebrook J also agreed section 11 was engaged, but in contrast, noted that satisfaction of section 5 would depend on local conditions and declined to analyse the point further. Overall, while the Justices were divided in their reasoning, the majority agreed that the appeal must be dismissed. Elias CJ differed, giving a minority judgment which concluded that "an interpretation of the legislation which recognises an implied power to add fluoride to water is inconsistent with s 11 of the [BORA]".

In the second judgment, the Court addressed New Health's challenge to the validity of the Medicines Amendment Regulations 2015, which had declared that fluoridating agents for use in water supply were not medicines for the purposes of the Medicines Act. The Court was united in dismissing this appeal, finding, in essence, that because the Regulations were made for a lawful purpose (clarity) and were prospective in nature, they were valid. The Court also agreed with the Court of Appeal that New Health's other challenges to the Medicines Act were moot, and the appeal was dismissed.”

 

 

Now, with that settled, Bill, do you care to comment on the recently released results of the National Toxicology Program study which you, yourself, instigated, and which your FAN promoted and pledged to closely monitor?  It’s probably no coincidence that FAN has chosen to remain deafeningly silent on these results, given that they reject, in no uncertain terms, the claims of FAN. 

 

Steven D. Slott, DDS

Report Inappropriate Content
2
Kudos
1156
Views
Frequent Social Butterfly
3
Kudos
1133
Views

Re: Fluoride - Demand AARP Take Action

1,133 Views
Message 1280 of 1,364

Dr. Johnson

 

When a person lacks evidence to support a theory, they attack the person and people rather than the issues.

 

Many aspects of dentistry and public health are in the dustbin of history.  Fluoridation will soon be considered on of public health's greatest blunders.

 

When fluoridation first started, public health authorities (Burk et al) assured the public only about 10-15% of the public would get dental fluorosis, a biomarker of too much fluoride.

 

Dental fluorosis increased at the turn of the century to 41% of adolescents with dental fluorosis.  The latest NHANES 2011-2012 dental fluorosis CDC survay released, shows 60% of adolescents with dental fluorosis and 20% with moderate and severe.  Clearly, too many are ingesting too much fluoride.

 

One of the unknowns is, "where is the excess fluoride coming from?"  Water fluoridation and toothpaste do not seem to have increased enough to cause such high rates of dental fluorosis.  Are there synergistic chemicals, other fluoride products or what?  Indeed, HHS recommended reducing the concentration of fluoride in water to 0.7 ppm, but HHS suggests that will represent about a 14% decrease in exposure.  Still too much fluoride ingestion. 

 

Fluoride does not magically go just to the teeth.  Most cells and tissues and organ systems appear to be affected.   

 

First consider dosage.  What fluoride concentration is desireable in the tooth?  How much fluoride does it take to get that concentration? 

 

Bill Osmunson DDS MPH

 

Report Inappropriate Content
3
Kudos
1133
Views
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Users
Announcements

Have a question about AARP membership or benefits? Ask it in the AARP Help Membership forum, Benefits & Discounts forum, or General forum.


multiple white question marks with center red question mark