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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 171 of 268

@JulieK260428,

I will do this in at least 2 posts since I will need to put something together. I will try to impart as much as I know to you and other struggling persons. There is nothing more frustrating and hurtful as job hunting when you are over the hill. It gave me a little appreciation of what blacks went through not so many years ago. You should get 2 people you know to hold a mock interview and one of the two records a video of you interviewing.

#1 Both my state and county have job hunt courses. The states are far better than our county. I took all the courses I felt might help me. The county had an interview class. We held mock interviews and the class and the leader made comments. The leader usually pointed out body language mistakes. I read as over confide3nt so I was told to sit on the edge of my seat to minimize some of that language. For my position cocky and confident are signs of success but I may come off as too cocky.

You want to research how to interview I used all that showed up in a Google search then made a master list of what/not to do. I review that and my resume at the beginning or usually at the end of a work cycle. I usually worked short contracts. They are easier to get. I start gearing up in my last month or so when I do hit the road my tires are squealing rubber. You are the hottest the first few months out of work.

https://www.livecareer.com/career/advice/interview/job-interview-tips

https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-ultimate-interview-guide-30-prep-tips-for-job-interview-success

https://zety.com/blog/interview-tips

 

 

I rarely know any of the interviewers beforehand except for my contact that I usually got from the head hunter the day of so you really don’t have time to research them. I never saw that as a problem.

I have 45 pages of technical questions they might ask. I pour over the question for days before the interviewe. If I head a new one I add it to my list before I leave the parking lot. I will share with you may list of questions I might ask them because they are not position specific.

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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 172 of 268
Did the EVER work for you? That NEVER worked for me.
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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 173 of 268

Has that EVER worked for you?  It never worked for me. Neither did making trouble.  Then I just started to bold face lie.  That worked pretty well. I didn't always get the job but I ALLWAYS got an interview. Interview practice is an end goal especially when you do heavy analysis of the interview process.  What work the best, well and not so well. These are then added to my notes. What failed me in an interview a decade ago helped me land a current job because I didn't repete that mistake. 

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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 174 of 268

@di9363 wrote:

I thought this was a blaintant case of age discrimination, and started to read up on what is current. The 7th court in Chicago was about to rule on a case for a lawyer who was denied onsideration for employment due to a statement about his experience being more than the maximum that the employer wanted for the job.

 

. . . . . I saw that the same 20 year max exp' phrase was listed. I wrote back to them stating that their policy was in violation of the ADEA, and Florida law, and that their practice was hostile and offensive.

 

I also saw that the case before the 7th had a ruling in April:

 

“We hold that (the ADEA) protects both outside job applicants and current employees,” said the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago in a 2-1 ruling in Dale E. Kleber v. CareFusion Corp.

“That is the better reading of the statutory text. It is also more consistent with the purpose of the Act and nearly fifty years of case law interpreting the ADEA and similar language in other employment discrimination statutes,” said the ruling.

 

Can this kind of discrimination continue in light of this ruling? What can I do to take a stand?

 

D.R Iserman PE


WE now have (2) courts with completely different rulings - It seems headed to the SCOTUS -  Here is the update -

 

Society for Human Resource Management May 10, 2018 - ADEA’s Reach Expanded to Job Applicants - Supre...

 

For years the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has advised that the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) applies to job applicants in disparate impact cases, but a 2016 appeals court decision ruled otherwise. Now, another appeals court has reached the same conclusion as the EEOC's, creating a split the Supreme Court may have to resolve.

 

In Kleber v. CareFusion Corp., the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on April 26 that the law prohibits employment practices that have a disproportionately adverse impact on older applicants, although the ADEA's disparate impact provision refers just to employees. Relying on this statutory language, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals held in the 2016 Villarreal v. R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Co. decision that the ADEA does not make disparate impact claims available to applicants.

 

The employer in the 7th Circuit case said its seven-year experience cap for an attorney position was necessary, as someone with more experience would be dissatisfied with less-complex duties. Without ruling on the merits of this defense, the appeals court addressed the company's claim that the ADEA doesn't make disparate claims available to applicants. The court determined it would be illogical for the ADEA to allow disparate impact claims by current employees, including internal job applicants, while excluding outside applicants.

 

Laws are complicated and sometimes it takes years and years of back and forth to get the kinks worked out.  The ADEA gives employers some very specific ways out and how they can prove it. 

So now, the arguement seem to be whether it only covers employees or whether applicants are covered as well - thus it seems that since (2) courts have had opposite rulings - it will be up to the SCOTUS to review the cases, hopefully sooner than later.

 

* * * * * * It’s Always Something - Roseanne Rosannadanna
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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 175 of 268

To di9363:

 

> I wrote back to them stating that their policy was in violation of the ADEA, and Florida law, and that their >practice was hostile and offensive.

Did they respond? Did you tell them about Chicago.

Good for you! THIS is what we need to start doing. For example, if I'm asked what year I graduated college, I state I'd rather not say. If they press as to why, I say, "Because I want to avoid being judged by my age."

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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 176 of 268

Tks for response. Can people comment on how, *specifically* one goes about "improving interviewing skills"?  I think the state job search offices only offer class style seminars for this when what's really needed is an individualized approach, coaching, practice, drills, etc.  I don't want to (and doubt) this can really be learned online, in a group lecture, etc.  I need individualized, more-than-one-shot help with this. Where do I start?  I'm open to paying someone, though not an outrageous amount of $$. Tks.

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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 177 of 268

@JulieK260428, I suggest you work on your interviewing skills.  They don't make you look younger but they will make you more hireable. I wasn't happy with my interviewing skills until I hit a homerun for every interview.  Sometimes you just make such a good impression they have to hire you.  The very last thing I perfected was my questions I ask them.  Long ago they were pretty lame but in my last few years I learned that is the critical part of the interview.  Those questions divide you from your were the most qualified person but too old to 'lets see what that old guy can do'. I always try to learn what was their biggest problem facing them at that time then solve it for them. That only works if you are way sharper than everyone in the room. Hell none of them were smart enough to figure it out.

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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 178 of 268

@di9363, when even the courts are against you what can your do?  Julie thinks we are too feeble to fight but I say I am too smart to fight.  I got this job at 67 by lying about my age so I just go with what works.  They don't like hiring even 60 year olds to program computer software but my referance was that I walked on water from GOD. My reference was from the head of NOAA's IT division.  Federal agencies that are mostly scientists, engineers or lawyers have a much higher standard than most federal agencies. It was that I was so over qualified that I saved their project.  I didn't follow instructions I did what was right. Instead of making the changes I was supposed to make I did re-writes of most of the software I touched.  As a result, my software was nearly bug free while rest of the programmers had bugs on top of bugs. I did 67% of all the software changes on a 5 man team and had the least number of bugs. This was the new global warming database that Obama wanted.  If we were late, he would have known about it.  The only reason it wasn't a few months late was I was super over qualified!   

 

As far as being OVER qualified.  There is no such thing.  The OVER qualified person can solve problems beyond what a qualified person can solve.  How is that a bad thing?  They claim that MAYBE you might get board with what you are doing.  If that happens fire them!  When I am looking for a surgeon I want someone with as much expericance as I can find.  Being afraid that he will get board during my operation doesn't cross my mind.   

 

That it really is is a BS excuse to hire someone who is 'too smart'.  No manager in their right mind wants to hire someone under him that could do his job better than he can while sleeping.  Stupid managers are forever screwing up so he needs working who he can blame.  Older persons usually know how to cover their asses better than someone as green as grass.  Managers feel secure to have mostly gullable fall guys working for them.  They will take the blame for their mistakes because they don't realize all the possibile outcomes so they don't cover their ass like an experianced person. The young are just egar to please.   

 

If I had a voice I would demand to get a listing of situations where being over qualified became an issue.   I would say how many years before a judge is over qualified.  The real answer is none just like any position. How can knowing more be a detrement?

 

I would apply showing I have less than 20 years experiance.  Resumes usually don't go back more than 15 years anyway.  Experts claim stuff older than that is irrevelant because stuff has changed since then. Of course experts can say anything and some will believe. A company this blantent ought to be easy to sue if they try to fire you after the fact.  I realize working for morons/baboons is better than sitting on the bench.   You just try not to vomit while on the job.

 

Good luck! 

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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 179 of 268

I recently had an experience where a recruiter sent me a job offering with the statement that:

 

Registration as a P.E. is preferred (5-20 YEARS EXP MAX)

 

I thought this was a blaintant case of age discrimination, and started to read up on what is current. The 7th court in Chicago was about to rule on a case for a lawyer who was denied onsideration for employment due to a statement about his experience being more than the maximum that the employer wanted for the job. The explaination was that the jobseeker with too much experience woud leave the job because they were overqualified. I have heard this overqualified phrase alsmost as much as the 'we have decided to go a different direction that would save the company money' when a 'junior' engineer was elevated without all of the qualification listed in the job advertisment.

 

Today that same recruiter contacted me again, and as if I had any interest. I saw that the same 20 year max exp' phrase was listed. I wrote back to them stating that their policy was in violation of the ADEA, and Florida law, and that their practice was hostile and offensive.

 

I also saw that the case before the 7th had a ruling in April:

 

“We hold that (the ADEA) protects both outside job applicants and current employees,” said the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago in a 2-1 ruling in Dale E. Kleber v. CareFusion Corp.

“That is the better reading of the statutory text. It is also more consistent with the purpose of the Act and nearly fifty years of case law interpreting the ADEA and similar language in other employment discrimination statutes,” said the ruling.

 

Can this kind of discrimination continue in light of this ruling? What can I do to take a stand?

 

D.R Iserman PE

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Re: Age Discrimination in Job Search and the Workplace

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Message 180 of 268

@JulieK260428@I have reported several companies but it is like pushing a string.  I just lied and hoped for the best.  I look young for my age so it worked well enough.  I  would rather drink or watch TV over taking on the world.  I will leave that to you. I  am 68 and working at my last job.  I can easily retire now.

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