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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 81 of 110

@AcC117647 wrote:

Thousands of workers were not aware of the 30 year as provision. I think that was intentional. So much of this was swept under the rug by employers and the government. Employees should have had mandatory disclosure of ALL provisions of WEP GPO and a signed document expressing their understanding. WEP is very troubling but to me, more so GPO. I had no idea I did not get survivorship until after I retired. 


Just a question to you and @l508156s since both of you have mentioned some public employees not being informed about this -

 

Was it not made clear in their paychecks and in the required (LEGAL) disclosures that they were NOT paying into the Social Security System while they were working at the public job?  And the effects of the WEP and GPO -  It was suppose to have been very clear - via disclosures - legal disclosures.  In fact, the notice to these employees were even covered by LAW.

 

SSA: State and Local Government Employers - Information

 

Attention! If you hire new employees not covered by Social Security: Section 419(c) of Public Law 108-203, the Social Security Protection Act of 2004, requires State and local government employers to disclose the effect of the Windfall Elimination Provision and the Government Pension Offset to employees hired on or after January 1, 2005, in jobs not covered by Social Security. The law requires newly hired public employees to sign a statement that they are aware of a possible reduction in their future Social Security benefit entitlement. For more detailed information about this law, and to view a copy of the statement concerning employment in a job not covered by Social Security (Form SSA-1945)

also see If You Hire New Employees Not Covered by Social Security.

 

SSA Section 218 Training: How State Administrators Should Share Important Information with Employers

 

This course serves as a reminder that Public Law 108-203 requires State and local government employers to disclose the effect of the Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) and Government Pension Offset (GPO) to employees hired after January 1, 2005.  WEP and GPO are also explained.

 

As you can read in this course - it is a law that these employees be informed. 

 

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 82 of 110

@AcC117647 wrote:

Thousands of workers were not aware of the 30 year as provision. I think that was intentional. So much of this was swept under the rug by employers and the government. Employees should have had mandatory disclosure of ALL provisions of WEP GPO and a signed document expressing their understanding. WEP is very troubling but to me, more so GPO. I had no idea I did not get survivorship until after I retired. 


The Gopvernment does a first rate job of not informing employees of things that affect their tretirement. I was a temporary employee for 15 months and paid  SS unstead of into Civil Service.

Instead of telling me right after I went full time they waited until I retired to let me know if I paid them back $4,000 I could get $20 more a month. It would have a few hundred dollars if they told me in 1983.

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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 83 of 110

Thousands of workers were not aware of the 30 year as provision. I think that was intentional. So much of this was swept under the rug by employers and the government. Employees should have had mandatory disclosure of ALL provisions of WEP GPO and a signed document expressing their understanding. WEP is very troubling but to me, more so GPO. I had no idea I did not get survivorship until after I retired. 

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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 84 of 110

She has already worked 43years. She should be able to retire. If government and employers had been transparent about WEP GPO she most likely would have arranged her last six years into a social security job. I know I would have. This is a shameful discrimination against hard working people. 

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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 85 of 110

@l508156s wrote:

@GailL1 wrote:

@LonnieC924336 wrote:

I am losing over $300 a month because of this tax.I get two partial checks instead of a full retirement. i worked 24 years for s.s. and 19 years for the school system.I got cheated Big Time.


You could work for (6) more years, earning what the government deems to be substantial earnings

under  a job covered by the SS system and the WEP would go away -   Substantial earnings has also a definition under the SS system - defined by year - in 2018, a bit less than $ 2000 a month - but the figure is actually a yearly figure.

 

SSA Windfall Elimination Provision

from the link ~

If you paid Social Security tax on 30 years of substantial earnings you are not affected by WEP.

 

There is also a chart of the "substantial earnings" by year in this pamphlet (above link).

 

Sorry can't help you with your school system pension - that is a local matter.

 

 

 

 


And just where would they find a job paying $2000 a month. Contrary to what AARP says companies are not hiring older workers and the few that do want part timers. 


My friend did it although he planned and worked at the school system and at private employment (self-employed) during his working career and then he went gungho into the self employment for the last few years (plumber).  See that is the way to do it for the most part.

 

Is > $ 2000 a month or $ 23,850 for 2018 hard for an educator???  I know some now who are working for online schools or doing lots of tutoring to make that amount.

 

Another is an artist and sells her creations at galleries, fairs and festivals.

Another keeps kids in her home.

The guy that cuts my grass (2-acres) makes that just from me a year.

 

Is it hard?  Probably - so, I guess the (whatever) reward needs to be determined vs real retirement with pension, WEP SS and whatever else they might have saved for the period.

So each (involved) person has to run their numbers on their work history - how long did they work under the SS system, when and how much were they making at that time. 

Figure their WEP SS benefit, if any and then compare that to what they want to do now.

 

Like I said, for workers in this situation

1.  there needs to be some minimal standards just like in SS now - minimal time worked and a minimal salary based on the year to become vested in the program - same one as now might work ok..

2.  Then some sort of a special formula used to compute the AIME to PIA which is not progressive in computation - just a standard amount to use on these benefit claims; not leaning to one side or the other of low income or high income earners. - But we always have a problem with this type of middle ground.

3.  Then probably some sort of code to identify these workers after they have been vested in the SS program to kick start this special formula calculation.

 

I don't see any other way -

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 86 of 110

@l508156s wrote:

Are you opposed to the WEP/GPO being repealed? It sure sounds like it. 


I have already said that a better, probably a manually computed, formula has to be done just for theses outliers.  Can't repeal it until there is something to replace it with - because in this situation, it does not fit into the regular course of progressive formula SS calculations. 

 

All SS vested criteria has to be met also for those years where they were under the SS sytem.

 

Seems there has to be some government actuary to come up with a special formula in theses situations - but now getting anything (at all) passed in Congress right now especially if it involves SS is another matter.

 

Most likely it will have to be done when the SS system goes through reform to preserve it for the long term - well, at least 75 years.  If not, come about 2034, it won't matter much anyway because unless it gets fixed before that time - the SS law allows for an automatic deduction of ALL current beneficiaries checks.

 

So Rome is burning while the fiddlers play . . . .

SSA - Social Security / Medicare 2018 Trustee Report Summary

 

Social Security’s total cost is projected to exceed its total income (including interest) in 2018 for the first time since 1982, and to remain higher throughout the projection period. Social Security’s cost will be financed with a combination of non-interest income, interest income, and net redemptions of trust fund asset reserves from the General Fund of the Treasury until 2034 when the OASDI reserves will be depleted. Thereafter, scheduled tax income is projected to be sufficient to pay about three-quarters of scheduled benefits through the end of the projection period in 2092. The ratio of reserves to one year’s projected cost (the combined trust fund ratio) peaked in 2008, generally declined through 2017, and is expected to decline steadily until the trust fund reserves are depleted in 2034.

 

. . . . .  Conclusion

Lawmakers have many policy options that would reduce or eliminate the long-term financing shortfalls in Social Security and Medicare. Lawmakers should address these financial challenges as soon as possible. Taking action sooner rather than later will permit consideration of a broader range of solutions and provide more time to phase in changes so that the public has adequate time to prepare.

 

These same words basically have been repeated verbatim from the Trustees for the last several years.  So few legislators of either party will probably be willing to put more stress on the program - so it seems they go by the philosophy of fix it all or fix none of it - thus we stay in a stalemate.

Not sure I will be around in 2034 - but if so, I probably won't care too Woman Winkmuch. 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 87 of 110

@GailL1 wrote:

@LonnieC924336 wrote:

I am losing over $300 a month because of this tax.I get two partial checks instead of a full retirement. i worked 24 years for s.s. and 19 years for the school system.I got cheated Big Time.


You could work for (6) more years, earning what the government deems to be substantial earnings

under  a job covered by the SS system and the WEP would go away -   Substantial earnings has also a definition under the SS system - defined by year - in 2018, a bit less than $ 2000 a month - but the figure is actually a yearly figure.

 

SSA Windfall Elimination Provision

from the link ~

If you paid Social Security tax on 30 years of substantial earnings you are not affected by WEP.

 

There is also a chart of the "substantial earnings" by year in this pamphlet (above link).

 

Sorry can't help you with your school system pension - that is a local matter.

 

 

 

 


And just where would they find a job paying $2000 a month. Contrary to what AARP says companies are not hiring older workers and the few that do want part timers. 

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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 88 of 110

Are you opposed to the WEP/GPO being repealed? It sure sounds like it. 

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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 89 of 110

@l508156s wrote:


 

 


The most you can get is 90% of your Social Security. This bit about them paying you your Social Security as if you are a low income wage earner is baloney. They are calculating it on quarters worked. I took the amount I make at my part time job $3800 and put it every year from 1972 to 2011 and I get $700 a month. But with my actual earnings I get 518. It seems to me they should be able to figure ones Social Security based on quarters paid. I  would even be okay with if they took the Social Security taxs I and my employer paid then applied interest earned on for the past 35 years.

Then took the amount and divided by life expectancy. 

Like the other poster said other companies have pension plans fot their employees so why are they not penalized. Why are State employees penalized their certainly goes in a different account and has no affect on the Federal budget. My money I paid into CSRS went into a different account. Personally I think any money earned before the law went into affect should be exempt from the formula. 

Simple fact is  SS was short of money in 1983 so they decided the fix it is keep some peoples Social Security. 


The Social Security formula for the Old Age benefit is based on the year of first eligibility (the year a person attains age 62 in retirement cases).  But then that figure is adjusted up or down depending upon when a person begins to draw the benefit.  It would go down, if say, a widow begins to draw a widows benefit at 60 instead of older or adjusted upward if a person waits until full retirement age to retire or even upwards more if they wait until 70 to draw their benefit. 

 

SSA: Benefit Calculation Examples for Workers Retiring in 2018

 

The formula used is affected by several different factors to come up with the AIME -

  • How long you work *
  • How much you make each year *

* To be eligible for benefits, a minimum amount of taxable earnings must be recorded for at least 40 quarters (10 years).

 

  • Inflation
  • What age you begin taking your benefits

This is the part where the calculations go off for those are affected by the WEP:

The Average Indexed Monthly Earnings (AIME) is the average of the top 420 months (35 years) of earnings, up to maximum taxable amounts, with past earnings through age 60 indexed to higher amounts to account for economy-wide average wage growth. For someone whose career was shorter, this can include months with $0 earnings. For someone who has already logged 35 years of earnings and continues working, payroll taxes continue, but new wages must be higher than wages from the top 420 months in order to have an impact on benefits.

 

Then when the Primary Insurance Amount (PIA)  is calculated to determine the amount of available benefits at the full retirement age (FRA), this calculation translates the AIME using a progressive benefit formula which provides a higher percentage of the AIME to lower waged workers and less for higher waged workers. The PIA formula provides a 90% replacement rate for the lowest range of the AIME, a 32% replacement rate for the middle range, and a 15% replacement rate for the upper range. The average benefit is about 40% of average wages in a given year.

 

Like I said, for those with several years (more than 10) of work under the SS system at a substantial earnings amount (based on year - see the chart) and then have the rest of their employment under a public system NOT under SS - the calculations cannot be made as normal because of this progressivity of the formula.  It could be done in some other way, most likely manually. 

 

And I do not know what this formula would be - I am not an actuary.

The amount of payroll withholding paid into the system by the worker and the employer or all by a a self-employed person has nothing to do with benefit calcualtion except that it is a % of the earnings the worker made for that year.

 

Other companies where an employee earns both a SS retirement benefit AND a company pension - were covered under both systems at the same time - the SS system and their pension system and both the worker and the employer paid into the systems as stipulated during their working years.  If many public employees want this - they have to do the same - be covered by BOTH systems - the employer, in this case a public entity has to cover their share of the SS payroll tax AND whatever contractual agreement is in their pension plan on matched monies.

 

An employee of a public entity that does NOT pay into the SS system does not get any vestment into the SS system - they paid into their pension program.

Let's look at it from a different perspective -

Suppose a worker works long enough in a job covered by SS to be fully vested in it and then goes to work for a public entity that is NOT covered by the SS system.  Many public systems in this regards would require the employee to work so long and have so much vested in their system to be able to draw a pension.  If for whatever the reason those requirements weren't met, they get no pension - if they have personally invested in it, they may get that money back but no matched amount from the public entity

 

So think of the WEP as a way of getting money back but no, or minimal, match by the SS system . 

It all has to do with the amount of time working under the system and the substantial income earned during that period. 

 

Is the current formula right or wrong - I don't know but the previous way of figuring it was definitely wrong; that is why it was fixed.. 

 

Here ya go - two perspectives from separate sides of the isle to show you how complex the issue is and the problem even with some of these proposed legislations:

 

Congressional Testimony - Rep of Mercatus Center 03/22/2016 - Restoring Equity and Fairness to the S...

 

NEA 03/23/2016 - Congress rethinking GPO-WEP, controversial laws that penalize retired educators

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Repealing the Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision And Pension Offset 2017 Legislation

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Message 90 of 110

This is like being punished for working hard and supporting your family. 

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