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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 31 of 45

@MsStretch wrote:


Today, public opinion wants the symbol removed (although admittedly, I don't know the exact percentage).


BTW, I haven't seen any mention of the African American memorial that also stands on SC's state Capitol grounds.


You are correct that TODAY, public opinion wants the symbol removed. Surveys have been taken concerning the flag for years as this has been a controversy for years. The surveys showed that 76% of African Americans have wanted the symbol removed for years. But that part of the public's opinion fell on deaf ears until nine people got killed and white people got involved in the call for the removal of the flag.

 

You obviously don't know the history of the African American Memorial on S.C. Capitol grounds.

First, its very existance was fought over for years and years. Second, its approval was partially based on the continuation of flying the CONFEDERATE BATTLE FLAG on Capitol grounds. Third, no real person from African American history was allowed to be depicted on the memorial. Fourth, funds for the memorial had to be raised privately. This was an African American Memorial that once allowed (and that wasn't easy), was planned for, designed by, parameters set by, the white legislature.

 

Don't forget......South Carolina is still South Carolina. It is right up there with Texas as one of the most discriminatory states in the union.

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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 32 of 45
The city has a statue of Andrew Jackson in the French Quarter. He owned 300 slaves. The task of removing all vestiges of Civil War history presents more problems than it solves. Should we rename Jackson Square, Lee Circle and Jefferson Davis Parkway?
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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 33 of 45

@nctarheel wrote:


Your point is well taken; however, if the collective public is composed of a majority that segregates, discriminates, hates, imprisons, etc.etc. the minority, then your argument could have a poor outcome.

 

For decades and decades, the South was segregated. That was the will of most of the collective public, about 89% of it. The 11% minority had to live under that system because they, at the time, did not have the power, political or otherwise , to change it.

 

So what the collective public wants is not always a correct outcome.

 

Thus, in my opinion, using collective opinion as a guide, sometimes can be just wrong on so many levels.


It's all semantics, Today, public opinion wants the symbol removed (although admittedly, I don't know the exact percentage),  So I said 'collective public'. Oops. 

 

BTW, I haven't seen any mention of the African American memorial that also stands on SC's state Capitol grounds.and depicts slavery and the Civil War because yes, it is a part of black history and SC's heritage.



    

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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 34 of 45

@MsStretch wrote:

@nctarheel wrote:

@MsStretch wrote:

But I reiterate what I said -- what I personally think about flying the Confederate flag on publc property is pretty much a moot point; it is what the collective public wants and for the most part the public has spoken.

Your point is well taken; however, if the collective public is composed of a majority that segregates, discriminates, hates, imprisons, etc.etc. the minority, then your argument could have a poor outcome.

 

For decades and decades, the South was segregated. That was the will of most of the collective public, about 89% of it. The 11% minority had to live under that system because they, at the time, did not have the power, political or otherwise , to change it.

 

So what the collective public wants is not always a correct outcome.

 

Thus, in my opinion, using collective opinion as a guide, sometimes can be just wrong on so many levels.

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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 35 of 45

@nctarheel wrote:

@MsStretch wrote:

@nctarheel wrote:

What is your position on the flying of the Confederate Battle Flag on Publically Owned property?


I will say that I seriously doubt SC who display(ed) the Confederate flag on state property do so with the intent of black suppression or racial prejudice. It is meant to be a symbol of their heritage and Southern pride. 

 

_____________________________________________________________________________

While your personal experiences are your own, you do have two sentences that confuse people that are reading your post. In one sentence, you say that you never associated the Confederate Battle Flag with hate or Black suppression; yet, two sentences later, you admit to meeting prejudicial people who had purposely displayed the Battle Flag precisely for that purpose. My opinion is that once you have met people that use the flag for that purpose; you can no longer say that you don't associate it with hate and Black suppresion.  It's a minor point.

 

The major point is related to the excerpt of your post above. Chronology does not bear out your hypothesis.

 

The Confederate Battle Flag was adopted by the Ku Klux Klan and many other white supremacy groups decades before it arose above the South Carolina State House, its original home on the South Carolina Capitol grounds. It was the flag of the Dixiecrats, a group of southern Democrats firmly against integration as early as 1948. It was already entrenched as a symbol of racism and hatred by the time it arose over the State House in 1961-1962.

 

The Civil Rights Movement had gained exponential strength with the election of Kennedy. The legislature of South Carolina voted that this emblem be atop its State House as a protest of the Federal Government's involvement in requiring states to provide Civil Rights to all, regardless of skin color.

 

 


Point taken -- minor or not. I meant that I, personally, have never looked at the Confederate flag and immediately thought of hate and suppression. It has always been a historical symbol to me. I have also seen the Stars & Stripes maligned, but that doesn't mean I agree or associate the American flag with those ideas.

 

Yes, SC did not fly the flag until 1962 in response to the Civil Rights movement and I know the KKK used it as their symbol of racism and prejudice, but currently it is protected by the South Carolina Heritage ActClick for link which specifies "Infantry Battle Flag of the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia (Confederate Battle Flag) must be displayed on the State House side of the Confederate Soldiers' Monument on the State House grounds". The flag was removed from the top of the state dome and flies adjacent and in equal height to the Confederate monument with the intention of it being a symbol of SC's heritage,

 

But I reiterate what I said -- what I personally think about flying the Confederate flag on publc property is pretty much a moot point; it is what the collective public wants and for the most part the public has spoken.



    

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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 36 of 45

@MsStretch wrote:

@nctarheel wrote:

What is your position on the flying of the Confederate Battle Flag on Publically Owned property?


I will say that I seriously doubt SC who display(ed) the Confederate flag on state property do so with the intent of black suppression or racial prejudice. It is meant to be a symbol of their heritage and Southern pride. 

 

_____________________________________________________________________________

While your personal experiences are your own, you do have two sentences that confuse people that are reading your post. In one sentence, you say that you never associated the Confederate Battle Flag with hate or Black suppression; yet, two sentences later, you admit to meeting prejudicial people who had purposely displayed the Battle Flag precisely for that purpose. My opinion is that once you have met people that use the flag for that purpose; you can no longer say that you don't associate it with hate and Black suppresion.  It's a minor point.

 

The major point is related to the excerpt of your post above. Chronology does not bear out your hypothesis.

 

The Confederate Battle Flag was adopted by the Ku Klux Klan and many other white supremacy groups decades before it arose above the South Carolina State House, its original home on the South Carolina Capitol grounds. It was the flag of the Dixiecrats, a group of southern Democrats firmly against integration as early as 1948. It was already entrenched as a symbol of racism and hatred by the time it arose over the State House in 1961-1962.

 

The Civil Rights Movement had gained exponential strength with the election of Kennedy. The legislature of South Carolina voted that this emblem be atop its State House as a protest of the Federal Government's involvement in requiring states to provide Civil Rights to all, regardless of skin color.

 

 

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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 37 of 45

@nctarheel wrote:

What is your position on the flying of the Confederate Battle Flag on Publically Owned property?


What I personally think about flying the Confederate flag on publc property is pretty much a moot point; it is what the collective public wants and for the most part the public has spoken. I will say that I seriously doubt SC or any state who display(ed) the Confederate flag on state property do so with the intent of black suppression or racial prejudice. It is meant to be a symbol of their heritage and Southern pride. As has been mentioned earlier, unfortunately the Confederate symbol has been adopted by many groups to symbolize hate and white supremacy and is doomed to the same fate as the svastika  (good fortune, well-being) or hooked cross..

 

I currently live in Virginia, but I was not born and raised here nor do I have any Southern ancestors who fought in the Civil War nor have I ever owned a Confederate flag or license plate. But having lived here where most of the battles were fought, I have visited many of the battlefields and recent sesquicentennial events and learned a lot more about Civil War history than I was taught in school. I, myself, never associated the Confederate flag with hate.or black suppression because that is not how I experienced it, unlike PattyDiane who had a much different and scarier encounter. Indeed, I have met Confederate descendants who are proud of their ancestry and not because they owned slaves and fought to keep them and I respect their right to use the Confederate flag to show pride in their heritage.. I have also met prejudicial d**kheads who purposely display the Confederate symbol to show that prejudice and no, I absolutely don't approve..

 

Of course, I am probably just babbling now and again, this is a very convoluted issue., but I really have no patience with people who jump on the social media bandwagon and make their opinions based on misinformation or historical ignorance. (Besides, the Confederate symbol is a different ballgame than monuments and memorials.).



    

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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 38 of 45

What is your position on the flying of the Confederate Battle Flag on Publically Owned property?

 

See where we live it's a non-issue. More population around here is black or some other ethnicity than white. In pubic or private displaying a rebel flag would inspire almost instant retribution.

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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 39 of 45
Removing monuments that have a significance to the Civil War should not be relegated to museums. Removing them would be a monumental mistake (pun intended). The city should not be caught up in herd mentality thinking influenced by social media. As long as we are removing symbols--what about the Civil War cannons at the site of the Battle of Vicksburg in Vicksburg, MS? There are statues of Ulysses Grant in the North--should that come down too? The flag is a separate issue from statues of leaders of the Confederacy. Politicians will follow what is politically correct or the will of the people, ignoring that the statue of Robert E. Lee was erected in 1884. One statue already is defaced "black lives matter"--ALL lives matter.
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Re: Should the South remove all monuments to Civil War history?

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Message 40 of 45

@MsStretch wrote:

Just because you remove all monuments doesn't erase the Civil War. You can't pretend it didn't happen or wipe it out of the history books.

 

 


Thanks for the history lesson.

 

I understand your position on monuments.

 

What is your position on the flying of the Confederate Battle Flag on Publically Owned property?

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