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Honored Social Butterfly

neoMarxism

While on vacation and peddling my tryke from restaurant to restaurant, I got to thinking about a promise I had made to bring up something very much in need of discussion and clarification. So - 

 

Some are offended by the term "neoMarxist" being used to describe the Progressive Movement. I believe there are two possible reasons for that. One is a lack of understanding of the term – and I shall attempt to fix that in this topic. The other is that some recognize their own ideological tendencies going in that direction and are embarrassed to admit it. Hopefully, this topic will show that there is no reason to not "come out of the closet". 

 

To start with the "don't call me commiecomplaint is not valid. It comes from fear that admitting their Marxist tendencies would tie them to the USSR and Stalin. In reality, a part of the Marxist vision was in play in Russia for the first two years after the revolution under Lenin. The farms were stolen from the landowners and given to those who had worked the land. But then Stalin came into power and adopted the "we the people" theory meaning that everything belonged to all the people – naturally administered by the Central government. The result – the USSR under Stalin in which everything was owned by the government and distributed as it saw fit. 

 

Now, about the Progressive Movement. It was begun by Teddy Roosevelt and did change America, for the better. It strengthened free market capitalism by insuring it's freedom (anti-trust laws). It also protected ALL Americans form the food industry's unhealthy actions. The National Park system was created – for two valuable purposes. It kept the forests for the use of the people and it preserved the trees for the lumber industry. 

 

So, as you can see, Progressivism was off to a good start. But.....well, what happened to it is a story for another day. Let's see if we can first all agree that Teddy had a great idea and there is nothing to be ashamed of about being a Marxist. 

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@creppelrm wrote:

OK, since you agree with me.  Not insulted anymore?


Disappointed that a discussion could not be had on this topic without suggestions about going to the library.

 

But, now that you agree with post #1 (at least about Teddy not being a Marxist) do you care to discuss the ideas of the two men mentioned?

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It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 

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@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


Will chapter II continue the practice of chapter I and contain multiple assertions unsupported by reference to verified and validated fact?

 

Will it contain assertions that FDR and Truman were undoubtedly secret Marxists - that Eisenhower was actually secretly a communist-controlled agent - and that the Civil Rights Legislation of the Sixties was actually part of a communist inspired plot to weaken the nation?

B-E1A1XCUAAf384.jpg

For the record - Fred was one of the crackpot founders of the John Birch Society - who tried to hide the fact that after he failed to make a fortune in the US - he went to work for Stalin to make his initial fortune - a very two-faced hypocrite whose bigotry and racism is obvious for all to see...

 

Will we see included alleged connections to ancient Spartans, the Bavarian Illuminati, the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Federal Reserve System, Internal Revenue System, Bilderberg Group, United Nations, and yes, indeed, even Satan himself, as contributory influences of Progressivism?

 

Saying that "I can't wait" would be a falsehood - I can wait...

 

44>dolt45
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@alferdpacker wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


Will chapter II continue to contain multiple assertions unsupported by reference to verified and validated fact?

 

Will it contain assertions that FDR and Truman were undoubtedly secret Marxists - that Eisenhower was actually secretly a communist-controlled agent - and that the Civil Rights Legislation of the Sixties was actually part of a communist inspired plot to weaken the nation?

B-E1A1XCUAAf384.jpg

For the record - Fred was one of the crackpot founders of the John Birch Society - who tried to hide the fact that after he failed to make a fortune in the US - he went to work for Stalin to make his initial fortune - a very two-faced hypocrite whose bigotry and racism is obvious for all to see...

 

Will we see included alleged connections to ancient Spartans, the Bavarian Illuminati, the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Federal Reserve System, Internal Revenue System, Bilderberg Group, United Nations, and yes, indeed, even Satan himself, as contributory influences of Progressivism?

 

Saying that "I can't wait" would be a falsehood - I can wait...

 


Patience. This topic has nothing to do with the JBS nor that most famous Bicher of them all - Richard Wolffe. Nor are the Illuminati involved. It is basically about the thinking of Marx and Teddy Roosevelt.

 

So, do you have any thoughts on the topic?

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@rk9152 wrote:

 It is basically about the thinking of Marx and Teddy Roosevelt.

 

So, do you have any thoughts on the topic?


Yes, I do...

 

But I decline to post any of them here and now in this particular, peculiar and decidedly perverted discussion thread.

 

Should I post thoughts and answers, it might be seen to dignify and or admit to the existence of even the slightest bit of validity of - what in my opinion - appears to be extreme fringe right wing nonsense of the sort that current RWNJs would swallow along with the koolaide - that crackpots like Welch and Goldwater would have agreed with - and that Charles Manson would almost certainly enthusiastically endorse...

 

With good and ample reason for my decision - I decline.

44>dolt45
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@alferdpacker wrote:

 


@rk9152 wrote:

 It is basically about the thinking of Marx and Teddy Roosevelt.

 

So, do you have any thoughts on the topic?


Yes, I do...

 

But I decline to post any of them here and now in this particular, peculiar and decidedly perverted discussion thread.

 

Should I post thoughts and answers, it might be seen to dignify and or admit to the existence of even the slightest bit of validity of - what in my opinion - appears to be extreme fringe right wing nonsense of the sort that current RWNJs would swallow along with the koolaide - that crackpots like Welch and Goldwater would have agreed with - and that Charles Manson would almost certainly enthusiastically endorse...

 

With good and ample reason for my decision - I decline.


I understand why you are having difficulty with dealing with the content of post #1. You are seeing Goldwater, Welch, Koch, the Illuminati, and probably the Bircher of them all - Richard Wolffe in there someplace.

 

Let them fly, fly away. They are not part on anything in post #1.

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Teddy Roosevelt was an American and a patriot above all else.

He was a progressive because that was the only possible rational path for the nation to take - and undoubtedly would now be a progressive and almost certainly a Democrat.

 

As a man of strong words, and blunt unequivocal statements, he would in this day and age - considering what he said in a speech in 1866 - a sentiment General Phillip Sheridan was also credited with - almost certainly would now say that it should apply to republicans who support trump.

 

If he lived today - he almost certainly would have expressed a fervent desire to give trump a punch in the nose at the very minimum for having deliberately and calculatedly colluded with enemies of the nation just to win the election.

 

Would Teddy in this day and age be influenced by the entirely fabricated phony baloney "neomarxism"?

Only those living in the conservative/republican "alternate reality" would disingenuously allege such nonsense... 

 

44>dolt45
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@alferdpacker wrote:

Teddy Roosevelt was an American and a patriot above all else.

He was a progressive because that was the only possible rational path for the nation to take - and undoubtedly would now be a progressive and almost certainly a Democrat.

 

As a man of strong words, and blunt unequivocal statements, he would in this day and age - considering what he said in a speech in 1866 - a sentiment General Phillip Sheridan was also credited with - almost certainly would now say that it should apply to republicans who support trump.

 

If he lived today - he almost certainly would have expressed a fervent desire to give trump a punch in the nose at the very minimum for having deliberately and calculatedly colluded with enemies of the nation just to win the election.

 

Would Teddy in this day and age be influenced by the entirely fabricated phony baloney "neomarxism"?

Only those living in the conservative/republican "alternate reality" would disingenuously allege such nonsense... 

 


Very good. We now have one poster ready for Chapter II - at least from the Roosevelt aspect (well, except for the "colluding" nonsense. But I guess that is required).

 

Nothing there about the basic decency of Marx. But, hey, the glass is half full.

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@rk9152 wrote:

@alferdpacker wrote:

Teddy Roosevelt was an American and a patriot above all else.

He was a progressive because that was the only possible rational path for the nation to take - and undoubtedly would now be a progressive and almost certainly a Democrat.

 

As a man of strong words, and blunt unequivocal statements, he would in this day and age - considering what he said in a speech in 1866 - a sentiment General Phillip Sheridan was also credited with - almost certainly would now say that it should apply to republicans who support trump.

 

If he lived today - he almost certainly would have expressed a fervent desire to give trump a punch in the nose at the very minimum for having deliberately and calculatedly colluded with enemies of the nation just to win the election.

 

Would Teddy in this day and age be influenced by the entirely fabricated phony baloney "neomarxism"?

Only those living in the conservative/republican "alternate reality" would disingenuously allege such nonsense... 

 


Very good. We now have one poster ready for Chapter II - at least from the Roosevelt aspect (well, except for the "colluding" nonsense. But I guess that is required).

 

Nothing there about the basic decency of Marx. But, hey, the glass is half full.


Do you know what Teddy Roosevelt said in 1886 that it's very likely he would now say applies to trump-supporting republicans?  

 

Even one of today's fourth-graders could find it...

 

Clue - he said it in South Dakota...

 

So - where are all the accepted and authoritative sources that offer valid proofs that "neomarxism" exists in any significant number - anywhere - much less that it has any significant influence in this day and age?

 

"NeoMarxism" is an amusing hair-on-fire rant/allegation - supported by no other accepted and recognized authoritative sources other than outre RWNJ sites - and things that can be found on crank dot net.

 

Sorry rk - I don't accept that your allegation has ever had any actual established basis in scientific fact.

44>dolt45
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Honored Social Butterfly

And now a copilation of the latests  never ending questions that have appeared in this thread.

1.-So, don't you have any thoughts? (Reffering to the thinking of Marx and Teddy Roosevelt)
2.-What particular hatred? Hatred for the Bull Moose Party?
3.- Where is the fallacy? Didn't Marx offered  a view of "Utopia" Didn't Roosevelt  not lead the Progressive Party?
4.-Did things not go horribly wrong  with Stalin?
5.- Where is the fallacy?

 

Would more of these never ending questions continue to appear in this thread that apparently no one can answered or they have been answered Ad-Nauseum?

My own never ending question.  Shall we contitue to answer any more ot these never ending questions?

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

And now a copilation of the latests  never ending questions that have appeared in this thread.

1.-So, don't you have any thoughts? (Reffering to the thinking of Marx and Teddy Roosevelt)
2.-What particular hatred? Hatred for the Bull Moose Party?
3.- Where is the fallacy? Didn't Marx offered  a view of "Utopia" Didn't Roosevelt  not lead the Progressive Party?
4.-Did things not go horribly wrong  with Stalin?
5.- Where is the fallacy?

 

Would more of these never ending questions continue to appear in this thread that apparently no one can answered or they have been answered Ad-Nauseum?

My own never ending question.  Shall we contitue to answer any more ot these never ending questions?


You're right. If only we could get folks to simple stick to the topic as presented, we could have some really lively and informative discussion.

 

And then we have a poster who totally ignores the topic and posts only complaints about efforts to keep the discussion on course.

 

Waddaya gonna do??

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@rk9152 wrote:


You're right. If only we could get folks to simple stick to the topic as presented, we could have some really lively and informative discussion.

 

And then we have a poster who totally ignores the topic and posts only complaints about efforts to keep the discussion on course.

 

Waddaya gonna do??


LOL   LOL  LOL  RK  You are incorrigible   !!!!!!!    another never ending question?  to continue this discussion which or your never ending questions now should be answered?

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@Roxanna35 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:


You're right. If only we could get folks to simple stick to the topic as presented, we could have some really lively and informative discussion.

 

And then we have a poster who totally ignores the topic and posts only complaints about efforts to keep the discussion on course.

 

Waddaya gonna do??


LOL   LOL  LOL  RK  You are incorrigible   !!!!!!!    another never ending question?  to continue this discussion which or your never ending questions now should be answered?


How said that such posts can represent the totality of a persons thinking on what could be a very interesting discussion topic.

 

I'm resisting....aaah.....arrrgh........ooooof.....it's coming......it's coming.....I can't stop it---------

 

Dontcha think????

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@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


psssst......don't tell anyone, "rk", but the issue is how you choose to frame a discussion with your biased/bigoted lecture with a baiting premise.  Gee, who would want to participate in a discussion which is initiated by partisan hate?  Carry on...


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


psssst......don't tell anyone, "rk", but the issue is how you choose to frame a discussion with your biased/bigoted lecture with a baiting premise.  Gee, who would want to participate in a discussion which is initiated by partisan hate?  Carry on...


pssst - what partisan hate? Hatred for the Bull Moose Party??

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@rk9152 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


psssst......don't tell anyone, "rk", but the issue is how you choose to frame a discussion with your biased/bigoted lecture with a baiting premise.  Gee, who would want to participate in a discussion which is initiated by partisan hate?  Carry on...


pssst - what partisan hate? Hatred for the Bull Moose Party??  No, hatred for anyone with a differing view....labeling and insisting others are "neo-Marxists" because they have a different view.  Thanks for asking.....


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in DC, 1/27/2017
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@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Centristsin2010 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


psssst......don't tell anyone, "rk", but the issue is how you choose to frame a discussion with your biased/bigoted lecture with a baiting premise.  Gee, who would want to participate in a discussion which is initiated by partisan hate?  Carry on...


pssst - what partisan hate? Hatred for the Bull Moose Party??  No, hatred for anyone with a differing view....labeling and insisting others are "neo-Marxists" because they have a different view.  Thanks for asking.....


I'm still trying to figure out exactly what your objection is. Do you disagree with my interpretation of Marx - my view of Roosevelt - or is it something else in post #1 that bothers you?

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@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


"Adult discussion" is limited in reference to a fallacy. Gee, can't wait for chapter II


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
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@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


"Adult discussion" is limited in reference to a fallacy. Gee, can't wait for chapter II


What is the fallacy?? Did Marx not offer a view of "Utopia" - Did Roosevelt not lead the Progressive Era? Did things not go horribly wrong under Stalin?

 

What is the fallacy??

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@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


"Adult discussion" is limited in reference to a fallacy. Gee, can't wait for chapter II


What is the fallacy?? Did Marx not offer a view of "Utopia" - Did Roosevelt not lead the Progressive Era? Did things not go horribly wrong under Stalin?

 

What is the fallacy??


Actually, the so called "discussion" you initiated consists of a series of straw man arguments (the logistical "fallacy") in an attempt to purport a contrived non existant political belief of "neoMarxism" ..... the title of your topic rk!!!

DUMP TRUMP AND DITCH MITCH TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!
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@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


"Adult discussion" is limited in reference to a fallacy. Gee, can't wait for chapter II


What is the fallacy?? Did Marx not offer a view of "Utopia" - Did Roosevelt not lead the Progressive Era? Did things not go horribly wrong under Stalin?

 

What is the fallacy??


Actually, the so called "discussion" you initiated consists of a series of straw man arguments (the logistical "fallacy") in an attempt to purport a contrived non existant political belief of "neoMarxism" ..... the title of your topic rk!!!


And what were those "straw man arguments" you use as an excuse not to actually engage?? Was Karl Marx not a thinker who visualized a "Utopia" for mankind? Did Teddy Roosevelt not lead the Progressive Era and do good for our nation?

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@rk9152 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

It is a shame that we could not have an adult discussion about the ideas offered by these two historic thinkers that have had a profound effect (in one case) on  the world and (in the other case) on our Nation.

 

I guess we will have to move on to chapter II - stand by. 


"Adult discussion" is limited in reference to a fallacy. Gee, can't wait for chapter II


What is the fallacy?? Did Marx not offer a view of "Utopia" - Did Roosevelt not lead the Progressive Era? Did things not go horribly wrong under Stalin?

 

What is the fallacy??


Actually, the so called "discussion" you initiated consists of a series of straw man arguments (the logistical "fallacy") in an attempt to purport a contrived non existant political belief of "neoMarxism" ..... the title of your topic rk!!!


And what were those "straw man arguments" you use as an excuse not to actually engage?? Was Karl Marx not a thinker who visualized a "Utopia" for mankind? Did Teddy Roosevelt not lead the Progressive Era and do good for our nation?


Marx was an economist. Roosevelt did not start the progressive era, he was just a player. TR was a capitalist.

 

So it begins.
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@MIseker wrote:


Marx was an economist.

True. But I amsume that in reading the Communist Manifesto you realized that his view of "Utopia" went well beyond mere economics.

Roosevelt did not start the progressive era, he was just a player.

True - but I believe I would phrase it "major player".

TR was a capitalist.

True.

 

Now - what has any of that to do with the topic??

 


 

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Very good. We now have one poster ready for Chapter II - at least from the Roosevelt aspect (well, except for the "colluding" nonsense. But I guess that is required)

 

 

Hurrah,  Hurrah!!!!!!!!!   has actually  rated us by our answers, and I guess that only one made the mark.  LOL

So, I guess the rest of us should not answer any more of his posts, after all we are not capabable of understanding and apparently have receive a non passing grade.  I guess there is arrogance, and then ,there is ARROGANCE

no name
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@Roxanna35 wrote:

Very good. We now have one poster ready for Chapter II - at least from the Roosevelt aspect (well, except for the "colluding" nonsense. But I guess that is required)

 

 

Hurrah,  Hurrah!!!!!!!!!   has actually  rated us by our answers, and I guess that only one made the mark.  LOL

So, I guess the rest of us should not answer any more of his posts, after all we are not capabable of understanding and apparently have receive a non passing grade.  I guess there is arrogance, and then ,there is ARROGANCE


Depends on how much one wishes to dignify the specious sophistry of the thoroughly unproved, undocumented and unverified allegation, doesn't it?

44>dolt45
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@alferdpacker wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

Very good. We now have one poster ready for Chapter II - at least from the Roosevelt aspect (well, except for the "colluding" nonsense. But I guess that is required)

 

 

Hurrah,  Hurrah!!!!!!!!!   has actually  rated us by our answers, and I guess that only one made the mark.  LOL

So, I guess the rest of us should not answer any more of his posts, after all we are not capabable of understanding and apparently have receive a non passing grade.  I guess there is arrogance, and then ,there is ARROGANCE


Depends on how much one wishes to dignify the specious sophistry of the thoroughly unproved, undocumented and unverified allegation, doesn't it?


Phrased another way - depends on one's ability and willingness to actually discuss (or ignore) an issue that makes them feel uncomfortable. 

 

Undocumented - do you want a copy of the Communist Manifesto posted or a full report on the Progressive era? What sort of "verification" on those topics would you desire?

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@rk9152 wrote:

@alferdpacker wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

Very good. We now have one poster ready for Chapter II - at least from the Roosevelt aspect (well, except for the "colluding" nonsense. But I guess that is required)

 

 

Hurrah,  Hurrah!!!!!!!!!   has actually  rated us by our answers, and I guess that only one made the mark.  LOL

So, I guess the rest of us should not answer any more of his posts, after all we are not capabable of understanding and apparently have receive a non passing grade.  I guess there is arrogance, and then ,there is ARROGANCE


Depends on how much one wishes to dignify the specious sophistry of the thoroughly unproved, undocumented and unverified allegation, doesn't it?


Phrased another way - depends on one's ability and willingness to actually discuss (or ignore) an issue that makes them feel uncomfortable. 

 

Undocumented - do you want a copy of the Communist Manifesto posted or a full report on the Progressive era? What sort of "verification" on those topics would you desire?


response declined

have a nice day

 

44>dolt45
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@alferdpacker wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@alferdpacker wrote:

@Roxanna35 wrote:

Very good. We now have one poster ready for Chapter II - at least from the Roosevelt aspect (well, except for the "colluding" nonsense. But I guess that is required)

 

 

Hurrah,  Hurrah!!!!!!!!!   has actually  rated us by our answers, and I guess that only one made the mark.  LOL

So, I guess the rest of us should not answer any more of his posts, after all we are not capabable of understanding and apparently have receive a non passing grade.  I guess there is arrogance, and then ,there is ARROGANCE


Depends on how much one wishes to dignify the specious sophistry of the thoroughly unproved, undocumented and unverified allegation, doesn't it?


Phrased another way - depends on one's ability and willingness to actually discuss (or ignore) an issue that makes them feel uncomfortable. 

 

Undocumented - do you want a copy of the Communist Manifesto posted or a full report on the Progressive era? What sort of "verification" on those topics would you desire?


response declined

have a nice day

 


Of course, why would anyone want to use facts in a discussion? Empty big words are so much more fun.

 

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RK--RE: Why would anyone use facts--

 

Words you may want to reflect upon!

Gee, I miss having a real President!!
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@pc6063 wrote:

RK--RE: Why would anyone use facts--

 

Words you may want to reflect upon!


The basic theme of the topic is that both Marx and Roosevelt were decent men who wanted to improve the lot of mankind but with very different approaches.

 

Are you in agreement with that - or would you rather not discuss the topic, preferring insult instead?

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