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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 31 of 52

@Richva wrote:

Of course the problems of the working person will  not be solved by taxing the aristocracy.  On the other hand, the American aristocracy controls 80%-90% of the wealth and that percentage is growing. 

 

American needs an educated, healthy population. It needs to improve its infrastructure of roads and bridges. It needs to improve its technology infrastructure which is also falling behind the rest of the world. 

 

If you control 90% or the wealth in America, there is a pretty good chance you are going to have to pay 90% of the taxes necessary to make America great again. 


How does any of that relate to the coming problem described in the topic?

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 32 of 52

The guaranteed minimum income has always been an idea with fascination for me

 

 

In case people haven't noticed, the days of working in the factory, mine, maybe even the farm your granddaddy did are over.

 

The days of going to college and studying one major occupation or skill and being able to do a job all your life in that line of study are greatly reduced.

 

Instead of one career path you might need five in your lifetime, you might need to go back to school many times over your lifetime, you might need to retrain for an occupation many times.

 

People despair over that amount of change, they feel useless, they feel they have no place, they feel like they worked and struggled for nothing.

 

I suggest a basic liberal arts education starting in pre school, prepare kids growing up for change, expression, communication,flexibility, and out of the box thinking. It's not to late for adults either, if you're feeling useless educate yourself with the great books of western culture.

 

Put that stuff on the Internet and UTube for free.

 

Provide people with a basic income and health care for something to live on while they're in between career paths.

 

Think about a world where we share versus a would which is basically like the boiling lake of blood in Dante's Inferno.

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 33 of 52

@gruffstuff wrote:

For those that see all the problems of workers solvable by merely taxing the accomplished, better think  again - it's a new world out there continually evolving and the plants of the '50s are not coming back.

 

Being a plumber I made an observation about thirty five years ago, a recession wasn't considered a recession until white collar workers lost jobs.

 

A spin off of that observation is automation, off shoring, and AI aren't a problem until white collar types starting losing jobs.

 

Guess what is happening, and will continue to happen?

 

Buy books, go to school, get good grades, do OK on a SAT, get though college, do everything right, and there still might not be a good job for you, a job working in a bookstore maybe, if anyone buys books anymore.

 

It is a new world out there, and the old one is not coming back, we're not bringing back coal.

 

One thing will still be true though, the drive to reduce the cost of labor.

 

Time to think about universal healthcare and a guaranteed minimum income IMO.

 

If machines are going to do all the work, the people who own those machines must pay more in taxes.

 

Start thinking about opening more family planning clinics, not closing them.

 

Put climate change problems on top of world wide automation and AI and people are going to need a strong social safety net.

 

I'ts good you're finally starting to see the light, keep working on it, you might get there some day.

 

 

 

 


The guaranteed minimum income has always been an idea with fascination for me.  The ultimate safety net with none of the overhead our current welfare systems generate.  If you want to go to school or work on your art or whatever, you simply must reduce your standard of living to the point you can support yourself until your investment in the future pays off (or doesn't). If you are lazy enough not to aspire to more than the guaranteed minimum, it takes the laziest people out of the job market making America more competitive.  

 

Frankly, I would rather some other country show it can be successful first as they have with government run health care, retirements, day care, elder care, and so on. 

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 34 of 52

For those that see all the problems of workers solvable by merely taxing the accomplished, better think  again - it's a new world out there continually evolving and the plants of the '50s are not coming back.

 

Being a plumber I made an observation about thirty five years ago, a recession wasn't considered a recession until white collar workers lost jobs.

 

A spin off of that observation is automation, off shoring, and AI aren't a problem until white collar types starting losing jobs.

 

Guess what is happening, and will continue to happen?

 

Buy books, go to school, get good grades, do OK on a SAT, get though college, do everything right, and there still might not be a good job for you, a job working in a bookstore maybe, if anyone buys books anymore.

 

It is a new world out there, and the old one is not coming back, we're not bringing back coal.

 

One thing will still be true though, the drive to reduce the cost of labor.

 

Time to think about universal healthcare and a guaranteed minimum income IMO.

 

If machines are going to do all the work, the people who own those machines must pay more in taxes.

 

Start thinking about opening more family planning clinics, not closing them.

 

Put climate change problems on top of world wide automation and AI and people are going to need a strong social safety net.

 

I'ts good you're finally starting to see the light, keep working on it, you might get there some day.

 

 

 

 

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 35 of 52

@rk9152 wrote:

@john258 wrote:

What you have here are two different problems. 1. Manufacturing jobs of to day going away just like they always do. This has been going on for at least 200 years. 2. Income inequality. Every time this happens the middle class on down is hurt.

You have to solve both problems and you can not combine them. Problem one has always had a starter as new things and ways are invented to make things. That is already happening we just have to encourage it not try and stop it. The Reb. have always tried the latter and it never worked. You want the cost of manufacturing to be about the same all over the world. Unions for all helps as then it is harder to take advantage of the people who become the workers. Problem 2 has been with us for years now. You can not have the difference between top and bottom in earnings and have a healthy economy. Teddy Roosevelt new this and was a trust buster as this was one of the first attempts to control it. Unions once again serve a really useful purpose as they give the workers a voice in what the difference is. The Reb. have always been for what is happening today by their policies. The Ben and Jerry rule would help a lot if it were put into law, and minimum wage helps.


You have missed the point. The problem isn't fair treatment of workers, it is the lack of need for workers. And Rebs. are not a factor - only reality is.


No I am on point. When you understand economics you know these are 2 different problems with 2 different answers. When both get the correct answer you solve them, when you try to solve both together using the same answer you solve nothing, and our current situation proves that. The far right have never done anything to solve either of these problems. As I have said before the far right have never helped the average person with anything.

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 36 of 52

Of course the problems of the working person will  not be solved by taxing the aristocracy.  On the other hand, the American aristocracy controls 80%-90% of the wealth and that percentage is growing. 

 

American needs an educated, healthy population. It needs to improve its infrastructure of roads and bridges. It needs to improve its technology infrastructure which is also falling behind the rest of the world. 

 

If you control 90% or the wealth in America, there is a pretty good chance you are going to have to pay 90% of the taxes necessary to make America great again. 

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 37 of 52

@FredSmif wrote:

Agree with you that the US president cannot mandate that plants be opened (under non wartime conditions). Unfortunately, candidate Trump, now president, presented that that was exactly what he would do by promoting regressive, ineffective tactics. He was proud to boast about US Steel reopening steel plants...never happened. That situation has been repeated a number of times. He misleads people this way and it’s not going to end well. Instead, provide retraining for those displaced from their work.

 

 


@rk9152 wrote:

@FredSmif wrote:

Never truer words were said.

 

In addition to not being able to tax our way out of this situation, it's equally as fruitless to try to legislate (or executive fiat) a way out by promoting old, inefficient industrial plants and methods.

 

Our President seems to think that we can return to the Eisenhower days of prosperity by mandating opening of industrial plants. The companies who own those plants...the steel and aluminum mills, the foundries, the welders, the industrial works, etc. ...have all moved on to adopt the current methods of production, which are more efficient than those of the 1950's. They need to be saluted and encouraged. This does displace workers, no doubt about it. But something needs to be to retrain these people for alternative types of work. Some will be unable to do so, and some will resist doing so. Some will thrive (and, hey, that is the capitalist way, right?). But mandating that inefficient, poluting means of production need to be restored...this is not progress!

 


@rk9152 wrote:

For those that see all the problems of workers solvable by merely taxing the accomplished, better think  again - it's a new world out there continually evolving and the plants of the '50s are not coming back.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-globotics-upheaval-review-when-therobot-gets-an-ofce-11551649635


 


I don't believe a President is in a position to mandate the opening of plants. However, he is in a position to make international trade agreements and establish desirable environments for industries thereby encouraging the creation of jobs.

 

However, that is small potatoes compared to the future in the article.


 


The future problem brought out in the article has nothing to do with any petty comments about President Trump.

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 38 of 52

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Olderscout66 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

For those that see all the problems of workers solvable by merely taxing the accomplished, better think  again - it's a new world out there continually evolving and the plants of the '50s are not coming back.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-globotics-upheaval-review-when-therobot-gets-an-ofce-11551649635


For those who think another 34 years of dribble down economics will prevent another American Revolution, better think twice.

 

No economic problem has ever been solved by Capitalism - it's not what Capitalists do, as pointed by Milton Friedman's famous quote: “There is one and only one social responsibility of business — to increase its profits.”

 

Government is the only solution to the ever-accelerating redistribution of income and wealth from the middle to the very top via the maldistribution of those profits that are the end-all and be-all of Capitalism.

 

We know EXACTLY how it can be done because we've done it before when rapacity, failure to regulate and low taxes destroyed the World economy in 1929.

 

It worked like a charm to grow the economy at twice the rate we've seen with dribble-down, worked to create, improve and maintain the world's best infrastructure, including schools and scientific research, while reducing the gap between rich and poor without seizing a single asset from anyone.


If you read the article you will see that it isn't about dribble down or dribble up - it is about the increased loss of jobs due to automation. Not a situation that can be solved by taxing.


If you seriously believe a single rich person or Corporation is going to create jobs on the scale needed, you probably think Reagan gave the middle class a tax cut- so sad t oremain so misinformed.

 

THE GOVERNMENT got us out of every serious economic downturn in our history, NOT THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

 

To fix the problem with jobs being lost to outsourcing to Commie slaves and automation, we need a GOVERNMENT run and funded INFRASTRUCTURE program - spend it on things EVERYONE will benefit from, and to do that on the scale necessary, we need to abandon the ludicrous post-Reagan tax structure and REPEAL THE REAGAN TAXSCAM.

 

Have you read the article??

 

It has nothing to do with rich people, Corporations, Reagan,  or outsourced to commie slaves.


"so sad to remain so misinformed" is a valid statement but a situation that can be remedied by simply reading the article.

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 39 of 52

@john258 wrote:

What you have here are two different problems. 1. Manufacturing jobs of to day going away just like they always do. This has been going on for at least 200 years. 2. Income inequality. Every time this happens the middle class on down is hurt.

You have to solve both problems and you can not combine them. Problem one has always had a starter as new things and ways are invented to make things. That is already happening we just have to encourage it not try and stop it. The Reb. have always tried the latter and it never worked. You want the cost of manufacturing to be about the same all over the world. Unions for all helps as then it is harder to take advantage of the people who become the workers. Problem 2 has been with us for years now. You can not have the difference between top and bottom in earnings and have a healthy economy. Teddy Roosevelt new this and was a trust buster as this was one of the first attempts to control it. Unions once again serve a really useful purpose as they give the workers a voice in what the difference is. The Reb. have always been for what is happening today by their policies. The Ben and Jerry rule would help a lot if it were put into law, and minimum wage helps.


You have missed the point. The problem isn't fair treatment of workers, it is the lack of need for workers. And Rebs. are not a factor - only reality is.

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Re: You Ain't Seen Nuthin' Yet

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Message 40 of 52

@williamb39198 wrote:

@rk9152 

I don’t care whether it’s automation, soybeans or steel. The real question is how will these jobs be replaced and what innovations can we come up with to benefit our Country. We need a leader.

If we don’t do anything about it, we lose jobs, and we lose tax revenue which makes our situation even worse. 

And trump is making this worse!

He has not made a good deal in 2 years and his future doesn’t look any different. 

 

Never Forget


We are discussing a major problem which may very well confront us in the future. Try to get away from the "Trump" pettiness - this goes well beyond him.

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