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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 21 of 29

@Olderscout66 wrote:

Sad to say, Venezuela is like many Central and South Armican countries - people get to vote, but the economy is in the hands of a dozen Oligarchs.

 

These right wingers orchestrated most of the shortages by market manipulation, then blamed the Government. When the Government retaliated, the Oligarchs moved their money elsewhere, causing a financial crisis. Then the price of Oil plumetted and the Government was unable to prop up the industries looted and abandoned by the Oligarchs, and the whle thing began to unravel.

 

My concern is what happened in Venezuela will be a lesson to future Government leaders - deal with the Oligarchs like Mao did before they decide its necessary to destroy the country to save it from Socialism.


An excellent description of one of the major dangers of Socialism. The more power the government has over the essentials of life, the greater the danger of those dictatorial powers being misused.

 

I am concerned however with the idea of using Mao as a model as to how to structure a government. I do recall earlier thoughts about dealing with people of an alternate political philosophy by deporting them or sending them to "reeducation camps".

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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 22 of 29

Sad to say, Venezuela is like many Central and South Armican countries - people get to vote, but the economy is in the hands of a dozen Oligarchs.

 

These right wingers orchestrated most of the shortages by market manipulation, then blamed the Government. When the Government retaliated, the Oligarchs moved their money elsewhere, causing a financial crisis. Then the price of Oil plumetted and the Government was unable to prop up the industries looted and abandoned by the Oligarchs, and the whle thing began to unravel.

 

My concern is what happened in Venezuela will be a lesson to future Government leaders - deal with the Oligarchs like Mao did before they decide its necessary to destroy the country to save it from Socialism.

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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 23 of 29

@KidBoy2 wrote:
Jim posted..

Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

==============================================

Yet we have people on the left ...you know the names...that want our country to be more socialistic.

Hate to break the news to you but this country is already Socialist, and has been for years. You take part in the programs. Lets see what the terrible American Socialist programs are and did. Ended the Depression in the 1930, Created Social Security, Created Medicare, GI Bill after WW2, Created medicaid, Ended the recession after 2008, Created the Space Program, Created the Interstate Highway program, Home mortgage program, ACA health care for all, CHP, Air and rail Transportation system, computers, and use of them. There are more. Now what did our good far right conservatives create for us. Well they opposed all the programs I listed.

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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 24 of 29

@jimc91 wrote:

In the age of A.O.C., the lesson must be learned again.

 

By Bret Stephens

 

Conspicuous by its absence in much of the mainstream news coverage of Venezuela’s political crisis is the word “socialism.” Yes, every sensible observer agrees that Latin America’s once-richest country, sitting atop the world’s largest proven oil reserves, is an economic basket case, a humanitarian disaster, and a dictatorship whose demise cannot come soon enough.

But … socialist? Perish the thought.

 

Or so goes a line of argument that insists socialism’s good name shouldn’t be tarred by the results of experience. On Venezuela, what you’re likelier to read is that the crisis is the product of corruption, cronyism, populism, authoritarianism, resource-dependency, U.S. sanctions and trickery, even the residues of capitalism itself. Just don’t mention the S-word because, you know, it’s working really well in Denmark.

 

Curiously, that’s not how the Venezuelan regime’s admirers used to speak of “21st century socialism,” as it was dubbed by Hugo Chávez. The late Venezuelan president, said Britain’s Jeremy Corbyn, “showed us there is a different and a better way of doing things. It’s called socialism, it’s called social justice, and it’s something that Venezuela has made a big step toward.” Noam Chomsky was similarly enthusiastic when he praised Chávez in 2009. “What’s so exciting about at last visiting Venezuela,” the linguist said, is that “I can see how a better world is being created and can speak to the person who’s inspired it.”

 

Nor were many of the Chávez’s admirers overly worried about his regime’s darker sides. Chomsky walked back some of his praise as Venezuela became more overtly dictatorial, but others on the left weren’t as squeamish. In a lengthy obituary in The Nation, New York University professor Greg Grandin opined, “the biggest problem Venezuela faced during his rule was not that Chávez was authoritarian but that he wasn’t authoritarian enough.”

 

At least Grandin could implicitly concede that socialism ultimately requires coercion to achieve its political aims; otherwise, it’s human nature for people to find loopholes and workarounds to keep as much of their property as they can.

 

That’s more than can be said for some of Chávez’s erstwhile defenders, who would prefer to forget just how closely Venezuela followed the orthodox socialist script. Government spending on social programs? Check: From 2000 to 2013, spending rose to 40 percent of G.D.P., from 28 percent.

 

Raising the minimum wage? Check. Nicolás Maduro, the current president, raised it no fewer than six times last year (though it makes no difference in the face of hyperinflation). An economy based on co-ops, not corporations? Check again. As Naomi Klein wrote in her fawning 2007 book, “The Shock Doctrine,” “Chávez has made the co-ops a top political priority … By 2006, there were roughly 100,000 cooperatives in the country, employing more than 700,000 workers.”

 

And, lest we forget, all of this was done as Chávez won one election after another during the oil-boom years. Indeed, one of the chief selling points of Chavismo to its Western fans wasn’t just that it was an example of socialism, but of democratic socialism, too.

 

If the policy prescriptions were familiar, the consequences were predictable.

 

Government overspending created catastrophic deficits when oil prices plummeted. Worker co-ops wound up in the hands of incompetent and corrupt political cronies. The government responded to its budgetary problems by printing money, leading to inflation. Inflation led to price controls, leading to shortages. Shortages led to protests, leading to repression and the destruction of democracy. Thence to widespread starvation, critical medical shortages, an explosion in crime, and a refugee crisis to rival Syria’s.

 

All of this used to be obvious enough, but in the age of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez it has to be explained all over again. Why does socialism never work? Because, as Margaret Thatcher explained, “eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/opinion/venezuela-maduro-socialism-government.html

 

 


Did you read the article you posted? If you did why did you entitle the thread Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe. In the 1st. para. the author tells us that Venezuela is now a Dictatorship so its current problems are the result of becoming a Dictatorship. The lesson to be learned is no country should become a Dictatorship or it will be destroyed. Just look at what is happening in this country as Trump moves us toward a Dictatorship. People who understand government know that Dictatorship is a far right one man government. The usual path is moving from being conservative to one person rule and dictatorship, but the same thing can happen from the left if you move to one person rule, and that is what Venezuela has done. The best example of that approach is The old Soviet Union when Stalin took control and moved it from Lenin and Communism to a Dictatorship. Under Chavez as pointed out in the article it was democratic socialism, and was doing well. Its people made the same mistake the US people did and elected an authoritarian, and now Venezuela is a Dictatorship. By the way the author does not understand the subject correctly just read his full article. Our far right once again prove the experts correct.

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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 25 of 29

@KidBoy2 wrote:
Jim posted..

Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

==============================================

Yet we have people on the left ...you know the names...that want our country to be more socialistic.

From what I see of Trump's economic policies, he is pushing for true Venezuelan style Socialism in America.  Controlling imports and exports. Subsidizing favored industries, abandoning trade agreements. 

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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 26 of 29

@KidBoy2 wrote:
Jim posted..

Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

==============================================

Yet we have people on the left ...you know the names...that want our country to be more socialistic.

And we have people on the right...you know the names...who want our country to be more like Venezuela.

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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 27 of 29
Jim posted..

Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

==============================================

Yet we have people on the left ...you know the names...that want our country to be more socialistic.
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Re: Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 28 of 29

I think we can agree that any economic system where the top 1% controls as much wealth as the bottom 90% is an unworkable system. It does not matter if the name of the country is Venezuela or the United States of America. If we have learned anything from the study of economics, it is that planned economies do not work. It does not matter whether the planning is done by government officials in Venezuela or the aristocracy in America. 

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Yes, Venezuela Is a Socialist Catastrophe

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Message 29 of 29

In the age of A.O.C., the lesson must be learned again.

 

By Bret Stephens

 

Conspicuous by its absence in much of the mainstream news coverage of Venezuela’s political crisis is the word “socialism.” Yes, every sensible observer agrees that Latin America’s once-richest country, sitting atop the world’s largest proven oil reserves, is an economic basket case, a humanitarian disaster, and a dictatorship whose demise cannot come soon enough.

But … socialist? Perish the thought.

 

Or so goes a line of argument that insists socialism’s good name shouldn’t be tarred by the results of experience. On Venezuela, what you’re likelier to read is that the crisis is the product of corruption, cronyism, populism, authoritarianism, resource-dependency, U.S. sanctions and trickery, even the residues of capitalism itself. Just don’t mention the S-word because, you know, it’s working really well in Denmark.

 

Curiously, that’s not how the Venezuelan regime’s admirers used to speak of “21st century socialism,” as it was dubbed by Hugo Chávez. The late Venezuelan president, said Britain’s Jeremy Corbyn, “showed us there is a different and a better way of doing things. It’s called socialism, it’s called social justice, and it’s something that Venezuela has made a big step toward.” Noam Chomsky was similarly enthusiastic when he praised Chávez in 2009. “What’s so exciting about at last visiting Venezuela,” the linguist said, is that “I can see how a better world is being created and can speak to the person who’s inspired it.”

 

Nor were many of the Chávez’s admirers overly worried about his regime’s darker sides. Chomsky walked back some of his praise as Venezuela became more overtly dictatorial, but others on the left weren’t as squeamish. In a lengthy obituary in The Nation, New York University professor Greg Grandin opined, “the biggest problem Venezuela faced during his rule was not that Chávez was authoritarian but that he wasn’t authoritarian enough.”

 

At least Grandin could implicitly concede that socialism ultimately requires coercion to achieve its political aims; otherwise, it’s human nature for people to find loopholes and workarounds to keep as much of their property as they can.

 

That’s more than can be said for some of Chávez’s erstwhile defenders, who would prefer to forget just how closely Venezuela followed the orthodox socialist script. Government spending on social programs? Check: From 2000 to 2013, spending rose to 40 percent of G.D.P., from 28 percent.

 

Raising the minimum wage? Check. Nicolás Maduro, the current president, raised it no fewer than six times last year (though it makes no difference in the face of hyperinflation). An economy based on co-ops, not corporations? Check again. As Naomi Klein wrote in her fawning 2007 book, “The Shock Doctrine,” “Chávez has made the co-ops a top political priority … By 2006, there were roughly 100,000 cooperatives in the country, employing more than 700,000 workers.”

 

And, lest we forget, all of this was done as Chávez won one election after another during the oil-boom years. Indeed, one of the chief selling points of Chavismo to its Western fans wasn’t just that it was an example of socialism, but of democratic socialism, too.

 

If the policy prescriptions were familiar, the consequences were predictable.

 

Government overspending created catastrophic deficits when oil prices plummeted. Worker co-ops wound up in the hands of incompetent and corrupt political cronies. The government responded to its budgetary problems by printing money, leading to inflation. Inflation led to price controls, leading to shortages. Shortages led to protests, leading to repression and the destruction of democracy. Thence to widespread starvation, critical medical shortages, an explosion in crime, and a refugee crisis to rival Syria’s.

 

All of this used to be obvious enough, but in the age of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez it has to be explained all over again. Why does socialism never work? Because, as Margaret Thatcher explained, “eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/opinion/venezuela-maduro-socialism-government.html

 

 

VIMTSTL
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