Reply
Honored Social Butterfly

YOUR RIGHTS & THE POLICE

Honored Social Butterfly

Gail, I have many comments on this subject. The first one, probable cause is not limited to applying for arrest warrants as you said. Probable cause is a key component of law enforcement and it applies to: 

  • Probable cause to conduct a search without a warrant
  • Probable cause to seize evidence or contraband without a warrant
  • Probable cause to arrest someone without a warrant
  • And as Gail pointed out, Probable Cause to apply for an Arrest Warrant
  • There is also Probable Cause to apply for a Search Warrant

Without Probable Cause, many police actions are illegal.

0 Kudos
93 Views
1
Report
Honored Social Butterfly


@CriticalThinking wrote:

Gail, I have many comments on this subject. The first one, probable cause is not limited to applying for arrest warrants as you said. Probable cause is a key component of law enforcement and it applies to: 

  • Probable cause to conduct a search without a warrant
  • Probable cause to seize evidence or contraband without a warrant
  • Probable cause to arrest someone without a warrant
  • And as Gail pointed out, Probable Cause to apply for an Arrest Warrant
  • There is also Probable Cause to apply for a Search Warrant

Without Probable Cause, many police actions are illegal.


When an officer stops someone to search the person, courts require that the officer has either a search warrant, probable cause to search, or a reasonable suspicion to search. In descending order of what gives an officer the broadest authority to perform a search, courts have found that the order is search warrant, probable cause, and then reasonable suspicion. 

 

It is reasonable suspicion where a police officer has some pretty wide parameters but it should be more than just a "hunch" and the whatever justification should have some reasonable backup or justification.

 

I think it is this area where there is a lot of misunderstanding between law enforcement officers and the general public and actually is not limited to them either.  If a person or professional SUSPECTS child abuse, they should report it - under some professions, they have the legal obligation to report it - they may not have proof - they may not have probable cause - they only have a "reasonable suspicion".

 

To me, it is this "reasonable suspicion" category that can cause problems in interactions between law enforcement and a person they might want to question or even search.   Again,  a person has rights as described in the GA. ACLU / Legal Aide articles which I used to start this thread.  However, the time to do any rebuttal is after the fact, not when the event is taking place - 

 

 

 

0 Kudos
51 Views
0
Report
Regular Social Butterfly

 

You are getting sleepy.
0 Kudos
175 Views
0
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

Never confuse Trump Cult members by using FACTS. They can, and often do, make up whatever they want, and act as if it's true. And if they hear someone on FOX say it, then it's definitely true.

 

Those outside of the Trump/Fox Alternate Reality Bubble, wait to get the facts before drawing conclusions.

Honored Social Butterfly

I'm wondering why the BLM cult can't understand why the police are quitting en masse?

 

 

Say no to Joe and the BLM cult!

Honored Social Butterfly

"31 police officers in Asheville, North Carolina have resigned from the force since June. The resignations amount to loss of more than one sworn officer for every ten in the force of 283 – or 13% of the force. And auto thefts and break-ins have tripled in the past month in this City.

 

One Officer stated that his job with the Police Department had taken a toll on his personal life, and he decided to quit law enforcement."

 

First, the job of being a police officer, by definition, takes a toll on one's life, so his resignation is not surprising nor unusual. 

Second, 31 police officers resigning simultaneously is unusual. We don't have nearly enough information to make a judgement. Why are so many retiring at the same time?

0 Kudos
302 Views
2
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

Why are so many retiring at the same time?

 

Because most cops feel that the system is rigged against them and they don't want to be the victim of the next BLM cult!  The risk is not worth the reward!

 

Say no to Joe and the BLM cult!

Honored Social Butterfly

The GOPerLords have put out a memo to their info deprived minions to blame the sorry state our Police operate in on BLM. There's several reasons for this. First their minions are racist bigots and will do anything to advance their Republican dogma that black lives do NOT matter, so including BLM insures the dupes will obey. Second and more important to the GOPerLords is the fact they have cut their own taxes to the point city and State Government cannot afford adequate support for mental health, homelessness, domestic abuse, truancy, or addiction.

 

Their solution was to slide all those burdens on to our Police.

To pay for the cops in our schools, we fired all the truant officers, nurses and guidance counselors.

Reagan and a Right Wing SCOTUS closed all our mental health facilities so now anyone with ANY "behavior disorder" will wind up in the Prison for the Criminally Insane if they come to the attention of the authorities. Instead of treatment, the bottom 90% wind up in jail for their addictions, many handed them by greedy doctors.

Instead of regulating mortgage lenders, we allowed predatory lending of the jrbush depression throw 14MILLION American families out of their homes , most of which became over priced and under maintained rentals. Now the Police have to deal with millions of people who may never again have a place of their own.

 

I would not have a cop's job for all the good American jobs in China, but I WILL do all I can to see we vote out the Republicans whose mania for cutting their own taxes led to this Sisyphean Labor we've placed on our Police.

Social Butterfly

31 police officers in Asheville, North Carolina have resigned from the force since June. The resignations amount to loss of more than one sworn officer for every ten in the force of 283 – or 13% of the force.

And auto thefts and break-ins have tripled in the past month in this City.

 

One Officer stated that his job with the Police Department had taken a toll on his personal life, and he decided to quit law enforcement, the 10-year APD veteran said he was "blessed to exit this job with only emotional scars.”

So what happens if Police forces get too small to 

handle the crimes or a crisis? 

0 Kudos
285 Views
0
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

Gail was wrong again when she wrote, "

 

FindLaw - Probable Cause 

People, whomever they may be,  must participate in the investigatory part even if they are innocent as a baby - the individual does not know what the police might be investigating.  I thought Ms. Stretch gave a great example and also how it could have gone awry."

0 Kudos
265 Views
1
Report
Honored Social Butterfly


@CriticalThinking wrote:

Gail was wrong again when she wrote, "

 

FindLaw - Probable Cause 

People, whomever they may be,  must participate in the investigatory part even if they are innocent as a baby - the individual does not know what the police might be investigating.  I thought Ms. Stretch gave a great example and also how it could have gone awry."


Well, don't keep me (and others here) hanging - expand on the discussion.

I think you are bringing up a very important matter and one in which may be part of the cause in many of the inflamed discourses between the public and police.

 

You said earlier in this thread:

@CriticalThinking wrote:

 

. . . . . Black people know what DWB means because, far too often, it's part of their lives. I have a black male friend who drives a Lexus. Over a 2 year time frame, he was stopped 7 times by the police and was never given a ticket. The only reason he was stopped because he was DWB in a Luxury Vehicle

 

Police do not have a right to stop a motorist for being black, they must commit a traffic violation before they can be stopped. Although my friend was never given a citation, beaten by the police, or arrested, this kind of police behavior is common practice throughout America. Illegal DWB stops can lead to  unnecessary violent incidents between the police and black citizens. Serious injury and/or death can occur needlessly.

 

"Do you think that this information by the Georgia Legal Aide Society as authored by the ACLU of GA is good advice for everybody? "

Of course it's excellent advice.


The article from the GA Legal Aide Society as authored by the ACLU of GA. seems to say just the opposite - you can be stopped.

Cops can stop you, question you, search you or your property while investigating (something)- they don't have to disclose to you the reasons for their queries - they don't have to document any probable cause during this phase of the investigating.  Your defense at that point in time is to state that you do not consent to the search.  Only under some circumstances can you be arrested for refusing to identify yourself - but that in and of itself could raise further suspicions depending upon why they stopped you or are questioning you, of which, at that time, you do not know the reason.

 

The time to file a complaint is after the encounter whether arrested or not because an officer has a lot of leeway in determining that probable cause factor at the initial point and time.

 

Like your friend, black with the Lexus - in my areas that is not uncommon at all - actually not even a new Mercedes or other luxury cars - Can he can  look up and make a mental note of the badge # and then later write down when, where - and then continue the process if it continues to happen.  Is it the same cop?  Is it in the same area? 

 

Until he can substantiate something - he is just guessing at the reason for the stop.

 

 

 

 

 

0 Kudos
195 Views
0
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

Gail said, "Probable cause doesn't come into play until the police have enough suspicion to try for a warrant.  Up to that point, it is just an investigation."

 

The statement above is incorrect.

0 Kudos
232 Views
1
Report
Honored Social Butterfly


@CriticalThinking wrote:

Gail said, "Probable cause doesn't come into play until the police have enough suspicion to try for a warrant.  Up to that point, it is just an investigation."

 

The statement above is incorrect.


Maybe I should have put @Olderscout66 's full comment:

There's no "probable cause" to suspect the passanger in a car or person on the street has committed a crime, UNLESS there's a bulletin out with a detailed description of the perp, something beyond their hair and skin color.

 

FindLaw - Probable Cause 

 

People, whomever they may be,  must participate in the investigatory part even if they are innocent as a baby - the individual does not know what the police might be investigating.  I thought @MsStretch gave a great example and also how it could have gone awry.

0 Kudos
243 Views
0
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

If You Are Stopped in Your Car

Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible.  Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way, and place your hands on the steering wheel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Someone I worked with came to work and told us he was pulled over by the police and he did excactly that (above). His nephew was a cop and told him that's what you should do every time you get pulled over. I keep that in mind.

I see videos of people who get pulled over and many of them do quite the opposite of the above and you can see it leading to trouble.

 

When we were young there were times we would run from the police, for example, after shooting off fireworks, or swimming in some stranger's pool late at night. But, when we would run, the police would never shoot at us like we see sometimes today.

 

 

 

Honored Social Butterfly

Gail wrote, "What does that have to do with the subject???"

 

It has a lot to do with the subject of this thread. Black people know what DWB means because, far too often, it's part of their lives. I have a black male friend who drives a Lexus. Over a 2 year time frame, he was stopped 7 times by the police and was never given a ticket. The only reason he was stopped because he was DWB in a Luxury Vehicle

 

Police do not have a right to stop a motorist for being black, they must commit a traffic violation before they can be stopped. Although my friend was never given a citation, beaten by the police, or arrested, this kind of police behavior is common practice throughout America. Illegal DWB stops can lead to  unnecessary violent incidents between the police and black citizens. Serious injury and/or death can occur needlessly.

 

"Do you think that this information by the Georgia Legal Aide Society as authored by the ACLU of GA is good advice for everybody? "

Of course it's excellent advice.

Honored Social Butterfly

@CriticalThinking 

 

I get stopped by the police a pretty good bit too - traffic cops.- Several times, this year even, same reason

It is not that I am doing anything wrong but I am so short that they can't see me, can't see if I am wearing my seat belt or even old enough to drive. 

I had one cop tell me that he wanted to make sure the auto had a driver.  And then said that I shouldn't even be driving.  Humiliating to say the least -

I have never gotten a ticket of any sort; nor have I ever had an accident (knock on wood).

 

Police have the right to investigate matters - some people have to be stopped and questioned in the investigation of whatever. 

 

 

 

0 Kudos
231 Views
0
Report
Esteemed Social Butterfly


@GailL1 wrote:

Georgia Legal Aid Society - Resources - Your Rights and the Police - Authored By: American Civil Lib...

 

Good Advice ????   What do you think ?

 

 


I think it's common sense.

 

Several years ago, we were working at a shopping center in northern Virginia taking down exterior Christmas decor after the holidays.  We worked overnight when parking lots are empty and stores are closed (easier and safer to move lifts around with no vehicles and people in the way).  Since winter nights are usually bitterly cold, temps and wind chills in the single digits are not uncommon and we dress accordingly. 

 

One night, one of our crew took some trash around the back of the stores to the dumpsters.  Next thing he knew, a cop car pulled up and stopped him.  As she approached his car, he said he put his hands on the dash.  He explained his presence and asked what was the problem, but she did not immediately answer him.  He then reached for his cellphone to call our boss who was somewhere on site and he said that is when she told him to freeze and I guess that's when he got indignant and probably a little snippy with her.  Fortunately, it did not escalate and things were finally straightened out.

 

A break-in at a nearby jewelry store has been reported (not in the same center) and the cops were searching the area.  As Steve was relating his story to the rest of us, we all looked at him dressed head to foot in dark clothing complete with neck gaiter pulled up over his face and asked him what the hell was he thinking?  A lone male at a dumpster in a dark alleyway in the back of a shopping center reaching for something in his car?  Our boss was livid.  She banned Steve from stepping foot at that center again.  He acknowledged that it was a stupid thing to reach for his phone, but he got frustrated when she prevented him from using his phone.  She didn't know what he was reaching for and we didn't know there had been a break-in; however, looking at the circumstances and our dark surroundings, it would seem common sense not to do anything deemed suspicious or retaliatory.

 

This was not the only time we were approached by law enforcement while working at some town center.  It wasn't a common occurrence, but  sometimes we were asked if we had seen anything or anyone suspicious because of a nearby call they had received.  Sometimes, the cops were called on us -- violation of a noise ordinance or maybe a nervous citizen seeing people with headlamps running around on the roof of a store.  Some of these centers were in high-end neighborhoods in DC, MD, VA and our boss would warn us to not disturb the peace, don't create a ruckus, do not argue with the police.   Anytime, a cop was around, she always informed them right away about our presence to dispel any suspicion.

 

Common sense.

Honored Social Butterfly

@MsStretch 

A good example and I am glad that it turned out OK.

We don't always understand the reasons why a cop might stop us - we don't know what they are looking into, if anything - Neither do they know what is in our pockets either.

There are those moments when both parties are flying blind and one wrong move, wrongly interpreted, could prove devastating. 

 

I found the article I posted to be good advice for everybody.

But ya know some people just have to be belligerent -

And I often see that "what people THINK" isn't always right.

Famous last words " I THOUGHT . . . . . "

 

0 Kudos
357 Views
0
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

Gail, do you know what the term DWB means?

0 Kudos
369 Views
3
Report
Honored Social Butterfly


@CriticalThinking wrote:

Gail, do you know what the term DWB means?


YES

and I know what DWI is too -

What does that have to do with the subject???

 

Do you think that this information by the Georgia Legal Aide Society as authored by the ACLU of GA is good advice for everybody?  Want to add or subtract anything?

Honored Social Butterfly

Based on the "legal advice" in the link, seems "stop and frisk" is inherently an illegal search. There's no "probable cause" to suspect the passanger in a car or person on the street has committed a crime, UNLESS there's a bulletin out with a detailed description of the perp, something beyond their hair and skin color.

 

But the impact of the "stop and frisk" - which stats prove is applied to non-whites about 3 to 4 times ad frequently as it is to whites - is  devastating. Possession of small amounts of pot is seldom a crime, BUT displaying pot in public is almost ALWAYS a crime. So when a stop and frisked victum turns out their pockets exposing a couple joints IN PUBLIC, s/he's under arrest on a drug charge. Many minority victims do not have a couple hundred bucks for bail, so they go to jail until they can be seen in court. This causes them to lose their jobs, which causes them to miss rent/mortgage payments which causes them to lose their homes which causes them to lose their families...all for possessing a LEGAL amount of a drug.

 

Over half the people now serving time are doing so because of non-violent drug offenses. Their care and feeding while incarcerated averages over $25,000/year - more money then you can earn working full time at the minimum wage. For every non-violent offender released, a State can educate 2 to 3 students in their schools.

 

Anybody else see the absurdity of continuing Nixon's War on Drugs, (which he admitted in private was designed to punish blacks and hippies, not inconvenience any drug lords)?.

Honored Social Butterfly

@Olderscout66 

 

"Probable Cause" ????  The person being investigated at the moment doesn't know if there is or if there isn't.  Probable cause doesn't come into play until the police have enough suspicion to try for a warrant.  Up to that point, it is just an investigation. 

Like in the example that @MsStretch described.

If the police are investigating a matter - anybody they stop is a suspect in whatever matter they are investigating at the time.

 

 

0 Kudos
211 Views
0
Report
Regular Social Butterfly

About 2 years ago, I was stopped by police while I was walking.  A police car turned the corner and blocked the cross walk I was about to enter.  The Asian police officer said to me, "Can I help you?".  I said, "No, why?".  Meanwhile other police cars showed up.  They said that someone phoned in a report that someone was trying to break into a church on the block that I had just passed. (I was the only person visible on the sidewalk).  They asked me to show them my ID card.  I did and we parted.

 

My only thought was that that was a flimsy excuse to stop me.  The sidewalk is often busy and the perp would most likely use the alley.

 

You are getting sleepy.
0 Kudos
429 Views
0
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

@GailL1 Your advice and that article are correct. but I am not black.
I realize that many blacks react very differently to the advice given in the article. but I have never  been stopped and harrassed as a black before.
You cannot deny that they have been treated very differently that you or I.  so to provide that very common sense advice may not ring true to the black community.

no name
0 Kudos
436 Views
5
Report
Honored Social Butterfly

@Roxanna35 

 

I believe the article was written for everybody.

Is a policeman asking for ID, regardless of why, harassment?

@Roxanna35wrote:

. . . . to provide that very common sense advice may not ring true to the black community.

So what advice would you give ?

 

Honored Social Butterfly

@GailL1  Americans are in need of a change in many areas.  and one of them will be in the way that many see others.
Until that happens, things like the ones that we have seen will continue. perhaps if the Justice Dept. becomes more aware of the issues that they need to study and perhaps cjamge
Otherwise, I don't see too many things changing.

no name
0 Kudos
209 Views
0
Report
Honored Social Butterfly


@GailL1 wrote:

@Roxanna35 

I believe the article was written for everybody.

Is a policeman asking for ID, regardless of why, harassment?  "In some states, you must tell police your name if they ask you to identify yourself."

 

. . . . to provide that very common sense advice may not ring true to the black community.

So what advice would you give ?  I would stick to the simple, easy to memorize, list of Rights.  For everybody.   The NAACP - KNOW YOUR RIGHTS: What To Do If You’re Stopped By The Police

https://www.naacp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Racial_Profiling_Know_Your_Rights_Supplement_6-12-1...

 

@GailL1- What you say to the police is important.

" You have the right to remain silent."

What you say can be used against you and can give the police an excuse to arrest you, especially if you speak disrespectfully to an officer.

  "If you wish to exercise that right, say so out loud." .....

 

https://www.naacp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Racial_Profiling_Know_Your_Rights_Supplement_6-12-1...

 


 

Honored Social Butterfly

@oceanedge2 

 

Isn't there a conflict in the information between what I posted from the Legal Aid Society / American Civil Liberties Union- Georgia and what the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is advising in certain areas?

Maybe not so much of a disagreement but the details or the accentuation - I think in matters like this, clear details are very important so there is not any misunderstandings or those "I thought (it was this way or that way) . . . . that can produce problems.   Immense Clarity from these organizations would help everybody.

 

Like here:

  • NAACP:You have the right to refuse to a search of yourself, your car, or your home.  . . . . . You don’t have to agree to a search. Say, “I do not consent to a search.”  (from your 1st NAACP link)
  • Legal Aide/ ACLU GA:You do not have to give your consent to any search of yourself, your car, or your home. You may say, “I do not consent to this search.” This may not stop the search, but this is the best way to protect your rights. If the police say they have a warrant, ask to see it. If they do not have a warrant and continue to search, it is important that you have made it clear that you do not consent, but do not physically resist.

And then here:

  • NAACP:  If you are not under arrest, you have a right to calmly leave
  • Legal Aide/ACLU GA.:  Ask if you are free to leave.  If the officer says yes, calmly and silently walk away.  Never run from a police officer.  If you are not free to leave, ask if you are under arrest.  If the officer says you are under arrest, you have the right to ask why.  If the officer says you are not under arrest, but you are not free to go, then you are being detained. Being detained is not the same as being arrested, but an arrest could follow.

 

 

 

0 Kudos
206 Views
1
Report
Honored Social Butterfly


@GailL1 wrote:

@oceanedge2 

 

Isn't there a conflict in the information between what I posted from the Legal Aid Society / American Civil Liberties Union- Georgia and what the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is advising in certain areas?

I don't think so.  The NAACP advises the-bottom-legal-line, in all areas - that do not frequently change re our Civil Rights.  The "accentuation" details are not further addressed, as they are in your article.  That is all good-to-know & consider.

 

.... Immense Clarity from these organizations would help everybody.

I'm certain immense clarity is making itself known to everybody.  This can only help.

cancel
Showing results for 
Show  only  | Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Users
Announcements

Does AARP donate to political parties or endorse candidates?

AARP is strictly non-partisan and always has been. We never endorse or donate to candidates, political parties or political action committees.

Learn more.

AARP Members Only Games

Play members only games, like FIll Ins, Lumeno, 2048 and a collaborative, multiplayer Let's Crossword.

Play Now
AARP Members Only Games Logos
AARP Rewards

Solve Crosswords. Earn Rewards. Activate AARP Rewards to earn points for games, quizzes and videos. Redeem for deals and discounts.

Get started with AARP Rewards now!
/html/assets/Rewards-program-badge-355x224.png