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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 11 of 27

so Desantis appointed another incompetent sheriff?  What’s the point then?

 

My guess is it’s all about the money. It is expensive to take an inmate to a hospital and provide a 24 hour guard. 

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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 12 of 27

The only assertion is the Broward County sheriffs department is known to be incompetent.  That is relative. Being conservative or liberal has no bearing.... so you missed the point. 

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/11/684652465/florida-governor-replaces-broward-sheriff-citing-incompeten...

 

 


"My AR self identifies as a Musket
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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 13 of 27

@Fishslayer777 wrote:

 

The Broward County Sheriff dept is notorious for incompetence. Oh, by the way, how do you know the sheriff deputies or department is conservative? Broward is a very liberal county full of people from the NE. I believe we call that "bias". 



So is assuming the jail is Liberal with a 42% Republican county.


"FAKE 45 #illegitimate" read a sign at the Woman's March in Washington DC, January 21, 2017.
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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 14 of 27

@MaVolta 

 

Trying to increase access and early intervention are noble ideas.  However, this does not solve the problem of treating the person and the obstacles the person with mental illness themselves throw into the system.  They have rights - who is gonna stay on top of them taking their medication(s), who is gonna force them to stay on their meds, who is gonna keep up with where they are - where they live, how they live?  Who is gonna keep up with them when they get arrested for some illness related offense.

 

Ending up in the judicial system is our current way of exerting some type of institutionalized care - not the best but we have just traded the type of institution for another. 

 

Research on perhaps cures is great but it does nothing to convenience the mentally ill person to do what is best for themselves.  They cannot.  If we want to treat mental illness as an illness, then there has to be some type of direct, hands on,  handler to keep the illness in check IF POSSIBLE.

That would require the removal of some of these rights.

 

Some mentally ill people never overcome addiction.  They can't.

Some may give up addiction with lots of help and support but then the mental illness, if present, has to constantly be treated directly, day to day.

 

If we resort to some type of community living arrangement for treatment or even continuous living arrangement, we have to have a strong control over oversight and once you lock the doors, that community living just becomes institutional living with handlers.

 

I took care of a mentally ill person for a very, very long time - it was a full time job.  She had access to care - she had access to medications - she was in and out of treatment facilities but still when things went south because she stopped doing what she needed to do,  there were plenty of problems to clean up - getting arrested, disappearing, people calling law enforcement because she wasn't acting "right". 

 

We would best spend dollars here, assigning handlers (caregivers), training them in their roll, teaching them how to protect themselves, giving them a list of numbers they could call for help when things go south and then saying that their job and funds will be removed if the person gets out of their control.

 

Like I said, in the incident which is the topic of this thread, this woman could have been committed if someone had the authority to do it because a mentally ill person can have their rights removed if the are a danger to themselves or to others; the baby definitely counted as another.  But who knew her history and who would or could make the call - there are so many of them that they are just swept up into the system.

 

The links you provided give a lot of pretty words to a society of people that want to pass the buck.  We have given the disabled mentally ill rights - great, now we need to give some rights to those who should be taking care of them to act on their behalf even if that means forcibly acting on their behalf.

 

Then we have to put safeguards in place so that these handlers don't abuse their rights.

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 15 of 27

@GailL1 wrote:

@MaVolta wrote:

We, as a country, have to do more with respect to mental illness and drug addiction. It is a problem that has been ignored for much too long. We have to recognize that mental health is as important as physical health, and how often the two are related.

 

This is one area where the government could work with non-profits to provide for both research and institutional care, and getting people into the proper facilities for treatment. The government should be responsible for setting the guidelines / regulations, and inspections / enforcement. 

 

We must recognize the need for greater clinical access to better evaluate mental health and drug addiction problems, and to get those in need into treatment sooner rather than later.


How do you propose to do any of that ?  They have rights - they cannot be institutionalized or forced to do anything unless there is a threat of harm to themselves or others. 

People with mental illness including those with addiction are included in the Olmstead vs LC Supreme Court ruling of 1999.  They have to be housed in the least restrictive environment - in the community - just like any other disabled person.

 

There are several problems:

  • The shortage of mental health treatment professionals that accept insurance - public or private.
  • NIMBY - ("Not In My Back Yard") - many people resist housing for the mentally ill (even developmental disabilities) including half-way residential homes for those with addiction, within their communities. 
  • the lack of force or even reasoning to convince a mentally ill person to stay on their medication or even stay in a housing unit supplied to them with auxillary help.
  • the inability of law enforcement to deal with them in an appropriate manner -

Dealing with a mentally ill person, especially those with some Dx, is difficult for anybody - many times they are not rational - how many people are trained to deal with irrational people even if you are trying to help them, they may just refuse the (whatever) help supplied by government, non-profits, family.

 

Should a judge have been able to forcibly restrict this woman to a facility since she was in late term pregnancy?  What about before she got this far along since evidently there was some drug use and homelessness issues.

 

I think we all, including government and non-profits, try to come up with a set type of plan for programs to help the mentally ill, including addicts.  But to me those plans are the ideal - and many times (most) the reality does not fit into the ideal.

 

 


I didn't say anything about forcing anyone to do anything. My point is, simply stated, there is a lack of access to mental health care in this country, and it hasn't been given the same priority as physical health care. The two are often related. Young people often do not know where to go or how to get help.

Here is an article to explain what I was trying to describe . . .

https://www.thenationalcouncil.org/press-releases/new-study-reveals-lack-of-access-as-root-cause-for... 

 

The article below describes 5 things (with supporting research) that need to be done . . .

  1. Invest early to protect kids and families
  2. Focus on treatment over punishment
  3. Make mental health treatment affordable and accessible
  4. Support and fund mental health research
  5. Combat unwarranted stigma

https://slate.com/technology/2018/02/how-to-fix-americas-broken-mental-health-care-system.html

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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 16 of 27

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@ManicProgressive wrote:

I worked in a jail, which is why this story in particular resonated with me. We have to meet a Constitutuonal level of care for people who are incarcerated. They cannot, in any way, fend for themselves. We are 100% responsible for them.

 

Physical movement through a jail isn’t fast. Labor, as we all know, can be very unpredictable. Crazy fast or crazy slow. Or worse, have unforeseen complications that endanger mom or baby. Why wasn’t an ambulance called immediately?  It takes time for EMTs to get into a specific holding area within a jail. Waiting for an on-call doctor is outrageous.


As you stated:

 

"This is a big mess of incompetence, and apparently this is a specialized jail for more acute needs like mental illness and significant physical health concerns. I’d hate to see what their regular jails are like."

 

"A specialized jail for more acute needs"  makes this an even bigger debacle. Our society can and should do better at holding people and institutions responsible.


So whose head should roll ?

Social Services for not keeping up with her?

The judge that let her back out on the street a month earlier?

The judge that put her back into the system and she ended up in this "acute care " facility ( I am pretty sure that this was because of her mental illness and not that she was pregnant)

The jailers at the facility who may have been able to deal with mental illness but labor and delivery, not so much.

The doc that did not understand the urgency

The Head of Correction

The Mayor

The Sheriff

 

We can keep assigning blame up and down the line but as we all know, there can be no rules that cover all human situations especially for the mentally ill.  But that is what we do - try to affix blame, make new rules til the next time the rule has to be revised.

 

If we cannot force the subject to do what (some) expert feels is best for them, aren't we still just reacting to the situation rather than actually helping?  It is hard to develop a plan for reactions. We give people rights to live and do what they want - yes, even the mentally ill, as long as they are not a danger to themselves or others - so by virtue of that fact - didn't she decide to be there based on the rules already in place.

 

 

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 17 of 27

@MaVolta wrote:

We, as a country, have to do more with respect to mental illness and drug addiction. It is a problem that has been ignored for much too long. We have to recognize that mental health is as important as physical health, and how often the two are related.

 

This is one area where the government could work with non-profits to provide for both research and institutional care, and getting people into the proper facilities for treatment. The government should be responsible for setting the guidelines / regulations, and inspections / enforcement. 

 

We must recognize the need for greater clinical access to better evaluate mental health and drug addiction problems, and to get those in need into treatment sooner rather than later.


How do you propose to do any of that ?  They have rights - they cannot be institutionalized or forced to do anything unless there is a threat of harm to themselves or others. 

People with mental illness including those with addiction are included in the Olmstead vs LC Supreme Court ruling of 1999.  They have to be housed in the least restrictive environment - in the community - just like any other disabled person.

 

There are several problems:

  • The shortage of mental health treatment professionals that accept insurance - public or private.
  • NIMBY - ("Not In My Back Yard") - many people resist housing for the mentally ill (even developmental disabilities) including half-way residential homes for those with addiction, within their communities. 
  • the lack of force or even reasoning to convince a mentally ill person to stay on their medication or even stay in a housing unit supplied to them with auxillary help.
  • the inability of law enforcement to deal with them in an appropriate manner -

Dealing with a mentally ill person, especially those with some Dx, is difficult for anybody - many times they are not rational - how many people are trained to deal with irrational people even if you are trying to help them, they may just refuse the (whatever) help supplied by government, non-profits, family.

 

Should a judge have been able to forcibly restrict this woman to a facility since she was in late term pregnancy?  What about before she got this far along since evidently there was some drug use and homelessness issues.

 

I think we all, including government and non-profits, try to come up with a set type of plan for programs to help the mentally ill, including addicts.  But to me those plans are the ideal - and many times (most) the reality does not fit into the ideal.

 

 

 

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 18 of 27

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@GailL1 wrote:

As bad as this was, it is sad to say, it might have been better than where she could have had the kid.

 

Jackson, 34, was arrested by BSO in late March. According to records from the Broward County Clerk of Court, she’d been arrested in January on cocaine possession charges and released, but failed to report for pretrial services so a warrant was issued for her arrest. She was also charged with trespassing, sleeping on a public street and possession of drug paraphernalia.

 

Since the day she was arrested, Finkelstein said, the Broward Sheriff’s Office was aware of her pregnancy. She was placed in an infirmary so her medical issues could be monitored, according to the public defender. “Not only was Ms. Jackson’s health callously ignored, the life of her child was also put at grave risk,” Finkelstein wrote.

 

Jackson underwent a competency evaluation late last month, according to the court docket in her case. Weekes declined to detail Jackson’s mental illness, but described it as “significant.”

 

I guess she couldn't or didn't tell them how far along she was, assuming the birth was at full term.

Guess the doc couldn't get there any faster -

If this had been REAL police, many of them are trained to deliver. 

Maybe they should have called the Fire Dept.

 

Glad the kid and the woman are doing OK - sorry, I just could not call her a "mother".


Conservatives claim compassion and support "Right to Life" yet show none for something like this, not for the baby or the mother, when complications could have caused either or both to die. Seems hypocritical to me.

 

The Broward County Sheriff dept is notorious for incompetence. Oh, by the way, how do you know the sheriff deputies or department is conservative? Broward is a very liberal county full of people from the NE. I believe we call that "bias". 



"My AR self identifies as a Musket
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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 19 of 27

@ManicProgressive wrote:

I worked in a jail, which is why this story in particular resonated with me. We have to meet a Constitutuonal level of care for people who are incarcerated. They cannot, in any way, fend for themselves. We are 100% responsible for them.

 

Physical movement through a jail isn’t fast. Labor, as we all know, can be very unpredictable. Crazy fast or crazy slow. Or worse, have unforeseen complications that endanger mom or baby. Why wasn’t an ambulance called immediately?  It takes time for EMTs to get into a specific holding area within a jail. Waiting for an on-call doctor is outrageous.


As you stated:

 

"This is a big mess of incompetence, and apparently this is a specialized jail for more acute needs like mental illness and significant physical health concerns. I’d hate to see what their regular jails are like."

 

"A specialized jail for more acute needs"  makes this an even bigger debacle. Our society can and should do better at holding people and institutions responsible.


"The only thing man learns from history is man learns nothing from history"
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Re: Woman forced to give birth in her jail cell alone.

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Message 20 of 27

We, as a country, have to do more with respect to mental illness and drug addiction. It is a problem that has been ignored for much too long. We have to recognize that mental health is as important as physical health, and how often the two are related.

 

This is one area where the government could work with non-profits to provide for both research and institutional care, and getting people into the proper facilities for treatment. The government should be responsible for setting the guidelines / regulations, and inspections / enforcement. 

 

We must recognize the need for greater clinical access to better evaluate mental health and drug addiction problems, and to get those in need into treatment sooner rather than later.

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