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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 21 of 53

@gruffstuff wrote:

In March, President Trump canceled a fuel economy ruling put in place by the Obama administration requiring automakers to achieve 54 miles a gallon by 2025, double the present level.
Environmentalists claimed higher standards would boost sales of hybrid and electric cars.

 

Bad Idea, Modern cars get 30 to 40 MPG, SUV and light trucks over 20 MPG. Federal fuel economy standards are the only reason we do. 

 

If not for those standards American cars would still get less then 20 MPG

 

Better fuel economy benefits people who drive more the most,. generally speaking the people who live outside urban areas.

 

We saw what happened in the seventies and eighties, small foreign cars that got good gas mileage ate the US car industry 's  lunch.

 

If USA and US automakers don't get on board with high mileage and or electric cars the same thing is going to happen .

 

I'm a made in the USA kind of guy, but I'll tell you all plainly, if Tesla makes electric cars in China and imports them to the US I'm probably going to buy one, even if I have to pay tariffs to do it.

 

Tesla just bought Maxwell battery, the reason Tesla did that was vertical integration, they want to own the company the makes the batteries, and the patents for those batteries.

 

That technology comes in two aspects of potential, one is a better battery, one that has a 20% and perhaps as high as 50% greater capacity  in a dry cell versus the lithium ion wet cell. 

 

Another is super capacitors, these super capacitors will allow energy expended in acceleration to be recovered by braking.  Energy is stored in the super capacitor, it's used to accelerate the vehicle, and then when the vehicle brakes  the wheel motors brake the vehicle, recover most of the energy used to accelerate the vehicle and return it to the super capacitors. There is no charge and discharge life on the super capacitor like there is on batteries, fast charge, fast discharge, no battery fade. This will greatly extend the life of the car batteries.

 

That could further extend the range of electric cars.

 

Tesla cars currently have a range of 237 to 315 miles, 20% more is 284 to 378,  50% more is  355 to 472. I don't know how much the super capacitor could add to that but it will at the least bring electric cars in line with fossil fuel cars, all factors combine it will probably exceed fossil fuel cars.

 

Think about that, 400 to 600 miles on one charge is a four wheel drive car, and not just any car, in a Tesla.

 

That has my attention.

 

The US and the US car industry has it's head stuck up the behinds of the fossil fuel industry, and that is a dead end. 

 

A dead end for the industry, a dead end for US workers, and perhaps a dead end for the planet.

 

Try to protect industries with tariffs, subsidise coal and oil if you want, sneer at solar power, don't subsides  innovation, protect the old ways and the old industries, it's not going to work.

 

The rest of the world will move on and we will be stuck in the stone age.


Exactly.  Read some of the articles posted in this thread.  China and Europe have already moved on.  "Keeping America great" means leaving it in the dust.  There will come a time (and not so far in the future) when Americans will be clambering for foreign-made cars because they will be more efficient and cheaper to run.  Methinks Celebrity President should quit spouting hot air and clouding up his crystal ball.



    

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 22 of 53

In March, President Trump canceled a fuel economy ruling put in place by the Obama administration requiring automakers to achieve 54 miles a gallon by 2025, double the present level.
Environmentalists claimed higher standards would boost sales of hybrid and electric cars.

 

Bad Idea, Modern cars get 30 to 40 MPG, SUV and light trucks over 20 MPG. Federal fuel economy standards are the only reason we do. 

 

If not for those standards American cars would still get less then 20 MPG

 

Better fuel economy benefits people who drive more the most,. generally speaking the people who live outside urban areas.

 

We saw what happened in the seventies and eighties, small foreign cars that got good gas mileage ate the US car industry 's  lunch.

 

If USA and US automakers don't get on board with high mileage and or electric cars the same thing is going to happen .

 

I'm a made in the USA kind of guy, but I'll tell you all plainly, if Tesla makes electric cars in China and imports them to the US I'm probably going to buy one, even if I have to pay tariffs to do it.

 

Tesla just bought Maxwell battery, the reason Tesla did that was vertical integration, they want to own the company the makes the batteries, and the patents for those batteries.

 

That technology comes in two aspects of potential, one is a better battery, one that has a 20% and perhaps as high as 50% greater capacity  in a dry cell versus the lithium ion wet cell. 

 

Another is super capacitors, these super capacitors will allow energy expended in acceleration to be recovered by braking.  Energy is stored in the super capacitor, it's used to accelerate the vehicle, and then when the vehicle brakes  the wheel motors brake the vehicle, recover most of the energy used to accelerate the vehicle and return it to the super capacitors. There is no charge and discharge life on the super capacitor like there is on batteries, fast charge, fast discharge, no battery fade. This will greatly extend the life of the car batteries.

 

That could further extend the range of electric cars.

 

Tesla cars currently have a range of 237 to 315 miles, 20% more is 284 to 378,  50% more is  355 to 472. I don't know how much the super capacitor could add to that but it will at the least bring electric car range in line with fossil fuel cars, all factors combine it will probably exceed fossil fuel cars.

 

Think about that, 400 to 600 miles on one charge is a four wheel drive electric car, and not just any car, in a Tesla.

 

That has my attention.

 

The US and the US car industry has it's head stuck up the behinds of the fossil fuel industry, and that is a dead end. 

 

A dead end for the industry, a dead end for US workers, and perhaps a dead end for the planet.

 

Try to protect industries with tariffs, subsidise coal and oil if you want, sneer at solar power, don't subsidise  innovation, protect the old ways and the old industries, it's not going to work.

 

The rest of the world will move on and we will be stuck in the stone age.

 

This is the fossil fuel industry wringing out every last dollar they can out of the American People, at the expense of every living thing on the planet.

 

Capitalism at work, the free market.

 

It's not Capitalism, and it's not the free market. 

 

It's corrupt government and crony capitalism.

 

We can't subsidise electric cars and solar panels, but we can subside coal and oil.

 

Solar power subsidises are set to end in 2019, if you want to get a tax credit on solar panels you better get going.

 

 

 

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 23 of 53

@mandm84 wrote:

What the hell is the hold up on coal powered cars ?


Lol

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 24 of 53

What the hell is the hold up on coal powered cars ?

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 25 of 53

@oceanedge2 

@Olderscout66 

Very good points. We know that repubs are not for clean energy or being the world leader in clean energy production or domestic manufacturing production of machinery related to clean energy...

very, very backwards, and prostituting themselves for money from the fossil fuel, coal industries. 

Instead, others here seem to support trump’s nonsensical policies, and would rather hand out large corporate tax breaks and give aways, instead of pushing the advancement of clean energy including pushing corporations  to help advance it. 

 

Never Forget

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 26 of 53

@Olderscout66 wrote:

The Europeans are buying twice as meany electric vehicles as the US because they pay $5/gal for gas, which is what we SHOULD be paying to get the money to fix our roads and bridges. Why are they folks in the EU shelling out $5/gal? BECAUSE THEY ARE PAYING TO MAINTAIN THEIR ROADS AND BRIDGES.

 

We have Republicans who think its good politics to cut taxes because their base is sufficiently dense they will not connect the dots between things like terrible schools, worse roads and collapsing bridges and the refusal to PAY FOR MAINTAINING WHAT OUR PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS BUILT FOR US.

 

So far, it working for the GOPers and until they are no longer getting elected because ninnies fear their guns will be confiscated and jobs taken by Mexicans if they don't elect neoNazis, it will continue to work for the GOPers. The solution is to outvote the ninnies.


Speaking of, whatever happened to the president's grand infrastructure promise and initiative?

 

"We will build gleaming new roads, bridges, highways, railways, and waterways all across our land. And we will do it with American heart, and American hands, and American grit."

President Donald J. Trump

It died?

 

Yeah, I thought so.



    

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 27 of 53

@GailL1 wrote:

I will do my part - I want one of these -

Three-quarter view of TE 4x2 Electric Gator Utility VehicleJohn Deere TE 4x2 ElectricUtility Vehicle

 
  • Quiet electric operation
  • Wide stance for enhanced stability
  • Best in class cargo box
  • Zero emissions/zero fuel consumption
STARTING AT:
$11,659.00USD

And if that electric 'gator is "road worthy" (highway legal), and can make a 50 mile commute, so will just about everybody else. This could put internal combustion out of business.

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 28 of 53

The Europeans are buying twice as meany electric vehicles as the US because they pay $5/gal for gas, which is what we SHOULD be paying to get the money to fix our roads and bridges. Why are they folks in the EU shelling out $5/gal? BECAUSE THEY ARE PAYING TO MAINTAIN THEIR ROADS AND BRIDGES.

 

We have Republicans who think its good politics to cut taxes because their base is sufficiently dense they will not connect the dots between things like terrible schools, worse roads and collapsing bridges and the refusal to PAY FOR MAINTAINING WHAT OUR PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS BUILT FOR US.

 

So far, it working for the GOPers and until they are no longer getting elected because ninnies fear their guns will be confiscated and jobs taken by Mexicans if they don't elect neoNazis, it will continue to work for the GOPers. The solution is to outvote the ninnies.

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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 29 of 53

I will do my part - I want one of these -

Three-quarter view of TE 4x2 Electric Gator Utility VehicleJohn Deere TE 4x2 ElectricUtility Vehicle

 
  • Quiet electric operation
  • Wide stance for enhanced stability
  • Best in class cargo box
  • Zero emissions/zero fuel consumption
STARTING AT:
$11,659.00USD

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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Re: White House: End Electric Car Subsidies

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Message 30 of 53

@oceanedge2 wrote:

Gail - Do you want to sacrafice jobs for the sake of electric cars that only a few can use presently?

 

I don't think "presently" is a valid argument when the US is not presently putting full effort into protecting air quality.  People now becoming too sick to get to their jobs, is the presently we are looking at.  The US needs to be more focused on the future of the health and well being of its citizens and its economies.  New jobs are now and will continue to be created with that effort.

China has this figured out.  They provide jobs for humans and robots that all contribute to the status they presently enjoy and have worked hard to achieve.  I believe Germany is one of the world's leaders in robotic manufacture and maintenance.

 

 

Like I said before the problem is a disconnect between what people want / need and what is available in the electric car breeds.

 

It doesn't do any good to have them available if nobody is buying them. 

To solve the disconnect, as I posted before:

we have to change the lifestyle wants/needs of people (that is hard to do) or build electric vehicles to fit those needs - including price and size - a small sedan only fits so many people.

 

Create the demand and people will buy them but they have to fit their needs.

 

We certainly cannot mandate people to buy them if they don't want them.

Or Do you think that is what we should do?

Mandate auto manufacturers to make them and mandate the publix to buy them - even if they don't meet their needs or pocketbook.

 

All countries are different in how they get from here to there because they have different needs -

https://www.dw.com/en/nissan-launches-first-low-cost-electric-car-in-china/a-45239226

Nissan's Sylphy Zero Emission electric car has started rolling off the production line at a Guangzhou plant in China. It's the first domestically-produced low-cost electric car made specifically for the Chinese market.

 

The low-cost model is a combination of the world's best-selling electric car, the Nissan Leaf, and the best-selling Nissan....

 

News agency AP reported the Sylphy would cost 166,000 yuan ($25,850, €22,266) after government subsidies, or just half the sticker price of the Nissan Leaf.

 

Nissan's rival automakers such as General Motors and Volkswagen are planning to release electric models designed solely for Ch... starting this year.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/13/new-electric-cars-on-the-market-in-usa-2019/

The European market is about the same size as the US market, ~17 million vehicles. On average, US electric car incentives are better ($7,500 federal tax credit + local incentives in USA beats most European incentives, such as a €4,000 rebate in Germany).

 

In Europe, however, the number of new fully electric cars in 2019 is nearly twice as high as in the USA, and the models in this article will sell 2 to 10 times better in Europe. The difference is a sales channel that is better able and willing to sell electric cars.

 

In 2019, a dozen new fully electric cars and SUVs are coming to the USA market. Well, they are not coming to all states — many will be what are called “compliance cars.” Let’s take a look at these electric cars and SUVs briefly.

 

Have you seen any at the dealerships??

What about advertizing on TV - I have some - the luxury.

You got charging stations anywhere around?  I do not know of one anywhere around where I live.

  • They have to meet the needs of people - in price, use and size -
  • They have to be advertized
  • They have to be available to see, drive and understand (education)
  • They have to have places to charge them not just at home
  • There has to be places for maintenance and repair

 

List of Electric Cars Coming to the USA in 2019

BrandModelBattery (kWh)Price
Audie-tron95$ 75,000
BMWi342$ 45,000*
HyundaiKona EV64$ 38,000*
HyundaiIoniq EV39$ 34,000*
JaguarI-PACE90$ 69,500
Kiae-Niro39-64$ 40,000*
KiaSoul EV39-64$ 38,000*
MercedesEQC80$ 70,000*
MINIElectric42$ 30,000*
NissanLeaf E-Plus60$ 35,000*
PorscheTaycan90$ 90,000
VWID Neo48$ 30,000*

* * * * It's Always Something . . . Roseanne Roseannadanna
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