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While Trump Promotes Coal, Others Turn To Cheap Solar

These are the kinds of project Republicans are fighting against in the US at the behest of their power company donors.


‘A solar Saudi Arabia’

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/world/2017/03/31/while-trump-promotes-coal-other-countries-are-turn...

Honored Social Butterfly

As always, I find these discussions interesting because the progressives post facts, statistics, and studies which prove that coal mining jobs are not coming back. 

 

The conservatives post unsupported opinions and personal theories, none of which address the question of whether coal mining jobs will return. Most of the conservative arguments are of the "look over there" variety. 

 

I will again state that environmental regulations are merely  one of the hurdles to coal use and a minor one at that.  Trump killing those regulations simply makes our country and world a dirtier place to live.

 

I will also state that other sources of energy are more efficient and less costly. 

 

Finally, I will state that mechanization has cost more jobs in coal country than anything else.  If the demand for coal doubled tomorrow, they would simply purchase more machines. 

 

I can post a distressing number of links supporting all this but I invite the conservatives to post ONE  link to a legitimate study that increasing pollution levels will bring back coal mining jobs. 

 

Sorry to be the adult in the room but I am really tired of Trump making empty promises which stop people from dealing with the problems at hand. 

Honored Social Butterfly

As always, I find these discussions interesting because the progressives post facts, statistics, and studies which prove that coal mining jobs are not coming back. 

 

It seems that the "adult in the room" would have noticed that no one has contested the fact that as technology moves on our energy sources will be changed.

 

Why is it that the Progressives keep making up false arguments, attributing them to others and then look to fight about them?

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Honored Social Butterfly

The children on the right continue to pretend coal can be made cost competative without killing more Americans and insist Der lyingTrumper will actually create more jobs for coal miners...somehow. Perhaps donny will hire the miners to dig really deep footers for his Great Wall of Trump - that would be more likely than actually adding jobs in coal mines.

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@Olderscout66 wrote:

The children on the right continue to pretend coal can be made cost competative without killing more Americans and insist Der lyingTrumper will actually create more jobs for coal miners...somehow. Perhaps donny will hire the miners to dig really deep footers for his Great Wall of Trump - that would be more likely than actually adding jobs in coal mines.


Who are those "children" to whom you refer? I know of no one on my side of the ideological divide that does not understand that technology and private enterprise will create wondrous new sources of energy.

 

And who is it you think expect some resurgence in coal mining jobs? Everyone I know realizes that out President promised to undo some recent regulations that had hurt some miners - a promise he kept, period, end of story.

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Honored Social Butterfly

Why the fuss about coal or solar.  If solar winds up as the cheaper cleaner way to supply power, then you will see solar panels on everyones roof soon.  If not, you won't.  It's really that simple.

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No, it's not that simple, and no, this is not an economic matter. You must be unaware of the emergency to end the use of fossil fuels and speed the transition to alternate energy sources. That consideration has been first for some time now.

Honored Social Butterfly


@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

Why the fuss about coal or solar.  If solar winds up as the cheaper cleaner way to supply power, then you will see solar panels on everyones roof soon.  If not, you won't.  It's really that simple.


Exactly right. The "fuss" seems to be that Trump is trying to lower the bar for coal by allowing more pollution.  Of course, solar is polution free once installed so Trump is trying to pick winners and losers in industry.  The really sad thing is that it cannot work yet he keeps pretending he can reverse free market economics with the stroke of a pen. 

Honored Social Butterfly


@Richva wrote:

@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

Why the fuss about coal or solar.  If solar winds up as the cheaper cleaner way to supply power, then you will see solar panels on everyones roof soon.  If not, you won't.  It's really that simple.


Exactly right. The "fuss" seems to be that Trump is trying to lower the bar for coal by allowing more pollution.  Of course, solar is polution free once installed so Trump is trying to pick winners and losers in industry.  The really sad thing is that it cannot work yet he keeps pretending he can reverse free market economics with the stroke of a pen. 


I'm glad that we agree on this.  Don't you think we should also remove any tax credits for solar since "we" feel the government should not be picking winners or losers?

Honored Social Butterfly


@NOTHAPPENING wrote:

I'm glad that we agree on this.  Don't you think we should also remove any tax credits for solar since "we" feel the government should not be picking winners or losers?


The tax credits started as  a way to promote a new industry with clean energy but also because China was and is heavily subsidizing their solar power development industries.  We had a choice of subsidizing our industry or ceding solar power to the Chinese. I have to admit I have mixed feelings on this. 

 

I do like the fact that the subsidies went to the homeowners causing the solar manufacturers and solar installers to compete with each other for the business. 

 

The question was never if solar power would be developed or that it would be more competitive than coal. In the end, the question was "Us or the Chinese".  I know who's side I am on. 

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The phony Solyndra scandal...now I'm convinced you are completely mistaken and unrepentant in some kind of conservative ideas. Bringing Solyndra in here off topic as a slur against the solar industry only shows that you have no understanding of the solar industry or the state of renewable energy in this country.

Honored Social Butterfly


@Albion61 wrote:

The phony Solyndra scandal...now I'm convinced you are completely mistaken and unrepentant in some kind of conservative ideas. Bringing Solyndra in here off topic as a slur against the solar industry only shows that you have no understanding of the solar industry or the state of renewable energy in this country.


Solyndra lost in its competition with the Commie Chinese because Republicans perfer slavery to freedom when it involves workers.

 

Solyndra was the better company with a better product, the Commie Government of China was a better supporter of THEIR domestic producers.

 

Republicans have become the greatest promoters of Commie governments since Marx and Lenin BECAUSE those commies give American businessmen access to slave labor that they use to undercut American workers, depress wages and destroy Unions.

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@Olderscout66 wrote:

@Albion61 wrote:

The phony Solyndra scandal...now I'm convinced you are completely mistaken and unrepentant in some kind of conservative ideas. Bringing Solyndra in here off topic as a slur against the solar industry only shows that you have no understanding of the solar industry or the state of renewable energy in this country.


Solyndra lost in its competition with the Commie Chinese because Republicans perfer slavery to freedom when it involves workers.

 

Solyndra was the better company with a better product, the Commie Government of China was a better supporter of THEIR domestic producers.

 

Republicans have become the greatest promoters of Commie governments since Marx and Lenin BECAUSE those commies give American businessmen access to slave labor that they use to undercut American workers, depress wages and destroy Unions.


Those seem like rather serious charges. Do you have any support for a) your theory about Solyndra and b) your theory about Republicans supporting Commie governments?

 

Surely such charges have more substance than "GOPerDupes", for example.

 

BTW I think I see where you are going with the lower wages idea. But, by that theory wouldn't that make all the consumers who buy foreign manufactured products "Commie supporters". After all, the manufacturers are merely responding to the consumer - at least for now since we have free market capitalism.

Honored Social Butterfly


@Albion61 wrote:

The phony Solyndra scandal...now I'm convinced you are completely mistaken and unrepentant in some kind of conservative ideas. Bringing Solyndra in here off topic as a slur against the solar industry only shows that you have no understanding of the solar industry or the state of renewable energy in this country.


Are you saying that the Washington Post is an unrepentant conservative newspaper?

 

It is not a slur on the solar industry. Rather it is an indication of what can happen when the government rather than the free market sector starts picking winners and losers.

 

Rather than showing my lack of understanding of the industry, I'd say it shows your lack of understanding of how politics get into government actions.

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No sir, I am saying that your comment reflects an unrepentant, but more importantly, an uninformed conservative belief. Your comment is absolutely a slur against the solar industry, as you meant it to be. Not very clever of you to then change the topic from the solar industry to your idea of government vs the free market. I repeat sir, you have no idea of what is going on in the solar, and probably the entire renewable energy industry. That you use the case of Solyndra to cast aspersions uopn the action of the government shows that you also do not know the outcome of the Solyndra story, or the proper role of government to promote economic actions which are beneficial for the counrty.

 

The loan program, in which Solyndra was a participant, was run by DOE, and was an excellent example of government using it's power to legitimately assist new businesses in the alternative energy industry when private capital was unwilling to do it. (Although some private entities did participate to the amount of twenty percent of the loan pool after the government put up the people's money, and Solyndra put in it's own money.) The aim being to properly help our country transition from the use of fossil fuels because we have no alternative. (If you think that is not the case, that is another discussion.) Of the several dozen companies receiving funds from the program, started in the Bush administration, Solyndra was one of a few that failed, but the program itself was a success, earning taxpayers a $5 billion profit. For conservatives who don't know any better, Solyndra is now just a meme to be shouted, much like Benghazi.

 

Any of these older articles will clarify things for you and those reporters at the Washington Post.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/24/opinion/the-phony-solyndra-scandal.html
https://ourfuture.org/20120926/the-phony-solyndra-solar-scandal
https://thinkprogress.org/exclusive-timeline-bush-administration-advanced-solyndra-loan-guarantee-fo...

Honored Social Butterfly

"All he did was to undo the Imperial decree of his predecessor saving some jobs."

 

Ya gotta love the hypocrisy and double standards of Trump lovers. 

  • When Obama wrote Executive Orders, they claim he was circumventing the Constitution and breaking the law.
  • When Trump writes Executive Orders, he's acting like a President.

As an aside, I respect President Obama for trying to protect our environment. Have you seen what coal minining does to beautiful mountains in West Virginia? They literally blow the top off the mountains destroying the einvironment.

Honored Social Butterfly


@CriticalThinking wrote:

"All he did was to undo the Imperial decree of his predecessor saving some jobs."

 

Ya gotta love the hypocrisy and double standards of Trump lovers. 

  • When Obama wrote Executive Orders, they claim he was circumventing the Constitution and breaking the law.
  • When Trump writes Executive Orders, he's acting like a President.

As an aside, I respect President Obama for trying to protect our environment. Have you seen what coal minining does to beautiful mountains in West Virginia? They literally blow the top off the mountains destroying the einvironment.


What is with all this "Trump lovers", "darlings of the Conservatives" and the like? We are talking politics here not love, sex, passion or nay of that jazz.

 

Now, as to the distraction of the beautiful mountains of WV - the topic is the President fulfilling a campaign promise to restore jobs taken away by an EO of his predecessor - period.

 

Coal mining knocks the tops of mountains (I thought they stopped that a long time ago), oil pipes destroy Indian grave yards, fracking screws up the water supply and so on. Unless you want to grow all your own food, haul buckets of water from the "crik", peddle your tryke to visit friends, and freeze in the winter, energy is needed. As has been discussed, alternate, cleaner sources are in our future. Until then I prefer my Ford over my Schwinn.

Honored Social Butterfly


@rk9152 wrote:

 


 

 

Now, as to the distraction of the beautiful mountains of WV - the topic is the President fulfilling a campaign promise to restore jobs taken away by an EO of his predecessor - period.

 

Coal mining knocks the tops of mountains (I thought they stopped that a long time ago)


So show us anything that Trump has done that is actually going to "restore jobs taken away by an EO of his predecessor".

 

If you think that they don't still knock the tops off of mountains through strip mining, you really are uninformed about present day coal mining. They are actively doing this today.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
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@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 


 

 

Now, as to the distraction of the beautiful mountains of WV - the topic is the President fulfilling a campaign promise to restore jobs taken away by an EO of his predecessor - period.

 

Coal mining knocks the tops of mountains (I thought they stopped that a long time ago)


So show us anything that Trump has done that is actually going to "restore jobs taken away by an EO of his predecessor".

 

If you think that they don't still knock the tops off of mountains through strip mining, you really are uninformed about present day coal mining. They are actively doing this today.


So, "us", by undoing the EO that caused the jobs to be lost.

 

As to my lack of knowledge about strip mining - true, I'm a city boy. But I do recall seeing reports years ago about legislation requiring that the land be restored to a "natural state" - maybe lower but still green. Were those reports all lies???

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@rk9152 wrote:

@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 


 

 

Now, as to the distraction of the beautiful mountains of WV - the topic is the President fulfilling a campaign promise to restore jobs taken away by an EO of his predecessor - period.

 

Coal mining knocks the tops of mountains (I thought they stopped that a long time ago)


So show us anything that Trump has done that is actually going to "restore jobs taken away by an EO of his predecessor".

 

If you think that they don't still knock the tops off of mountains through strip mining, you really are uninformed about present day coal mining. They are actively doing this today.


So, "us", by undoing the EO that caused the jobs to be lost.

 

As to my lack of knowledge about strip mining - true, I'm a city boy. But I do recall seeing reports years ago about legislation requiring that the land be restored to a "natural state" - maybe lower but still green. Were those reports all lies???


You are correct, there is a law on the books. As near as I can tell, the law is there but there are no funds for enforcement and it only kicks in after the mine is closed. So, a company can evade the law's requirements for decades by keeping a skeleton staff onsite. 

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@CriticalThinking wrote:

"All he did was to undo the Imperial decree of his predecessor saving some jobs."

 

Ya gotta love the hypocrisy and double standards of Trump lovers. 

  • When Obama wrote Executive Orders, they claim he was circumventing the Constitution and breaking the law.
  • When Trump writes Executive Orders, he's acting like a President.

As an aside, I respect President Obama for trying to protect our environment. Have you seen what coal minining does to beautiful mountains in West Virginia? They literally blow the top off the mountains destroying the einvironment.


Most here who support keeping coal have no idea of what strip mining of all forms has caused. I live in Kentucky and have watched it for over 30 years. This tells a story about it, worth the listen:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR101oX3fZo


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly

If Trump were promoting coal, he would fund a massive coal fired project someplace.  He won't do that because it is not economically feasible.  

Honored Social Butterfly


@Richva wrote:

If Trump were promoting coal, he would fund a massive coal fired project someplace.  He won't do that because it is not economically feasible.  


He is not "promoting coal". He was helping those who lost their jobs due to other than free market forces.

Honored Social Butterfly


@rk9152 wrote:

 


He is not "promoting coal". He was helping those who lost their jobs due to other than free market forces.


How is he helping by letting the coal companies dump their sludge into our rivers/streams/ waterways ?  How will that create coal mining jobs jobs?


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly


@rk9152 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

If Trump were promoting coal, he would fund a massive coal fired project someplace.  He won't do that because it is not economically feasible.  


He is not "promoting coal". He was helping those who lost their jobs due to other than free market forces.


Their jobs were lost because of "free market forces", they were lost to strip mining technology (cheaper production), miners aren't needed to dig coal anymore. More coal jobs were lost to "free market forces" because gas is cheaper, far cheaper. You like "free market", you've got it !

 

Also, the Right keeps talking about solar not working at night. Well take a look at this, which is from the posted link in this topic (you did read everything in the link, didn't you?)  Batteries storing power is not the only way to use solar power. From the link:

 

Conventional plants using coal or other fuels can’t be turned on and off like a light switch. So they have to keep running during the day, when they’re far less competitive, and try to make up the difference at night.

A company looking to bridge this gap in Chile is building Latin America’s first solar thermal plant. You can see its solitary tower rising from the desert for miles around, like some sort of alien religious shrine. At nearly 700 feet, it is the second-tallest building in Chile.

Instead of PV panels, the solar thermal plant will have 10,000 giant, rotating mirrors set in concentric circles around the tower. They will concentrate the sun’s rays on a huge boiler at the top, filled with molten salts, that reaches more than 1,000 degrees and glows like the Eye of Sauron in “The Lord of the Rings.”

The superheated salts ooze downward to steam turbines at the base of the tower, retaining enough energy to generate electricity all night. It’s essentially a giant, rechargeable $1.4 billion battery.

The plant’s owner, Cerro Dominador, a subsidiary of U.S.-based EIG Global Energy Partners, says it will be completed in 2019. Larger solar thermal facilities based on the technology are in operation in California, and Chile has issued permits for others.

Ivan Araneda, the company’s top executive, said such solar thermal facilities can transform the industry.


Man learns from history that man learns nothing from history.
Honored Social Butterfly


@ChasKy53 wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

@Richva wrote:

If Trump were promoting coal, he would fund a massive coal fired project someplace.  He won't do that because it is not economically feasible.  


He is not "promoting coal". He was helping those who lost their jobs due to other than free market forces.


Their jobs were lost because of "free market forces", they were lost to strip mining technology (cheaper production), miners aren't needed to dig coal anymore. More coal jobs were lost to "free market forces" because gas is cheaper, far cheaper. You like "free market", you've got it !

The jobs saved by Trump's EO were the ones lost by Obama's EO. Nothing "free market" in Obama's actions.

 

Also, the Right keeps talking about solar not working at night. Well take a look at this, which is from the posted link in this topic (you did read everything in the link, didn't you?)  Batteries storing power is not the only way to use solar power. From the link:

Solar will obviously not work without it's source - the sun. Nothing in the words you offered that say otherwise. Now, who didn't read everything in the article? It seems someone read something not in the article. I quote "It’s essentially a giant, rechargeable $1.4 billion battery."

 

Conventional plants using coal or other fuels can’t be turned on and off like a light switch. So they have to keep running during the day, when they’re far less competitive, and try to make up the difference at night.

A company looking to bridge this gap in Chile is building Latin America’s first solar thermal plant. You can see its solitary tower rising from the desert for miles around, like some sort of alien religious shrine. At nearly 700 feet, it is the second-tallest building in Chile.

Instead of PV panels, the solar thermal plant will have 10,000 giant, rotating mirrors set in concentric circles around the tower. They will concentrate the sun’s rays on a huge boiler at the top, filled with molten salts, that reaches more than 1,000 degrees and glows like the Eye of Sauron in “The Lord of the Rings.”

The superheated salts ooze downward to steam turbines at the base of the tower, retaining enough energy to generate electricity all night. It’s essentially a giant, rechargeable $1.4 billion battery.

The plant’s owner, Cerro Dominador, a subsidiary of U.S.-based EIG Global Energy Partners, says it will be completed in 2019. Larger solar thermal facilities based on the technology are in operation in California, and Chile has issued permits for others.

Ivan Araneda, the company’s top executive, said such solar thermal facilities can transform the industry.


 

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Trusted Social Butterfly


@Albion61 wrote:

These are the kinds of project Republicans are fighting against in the US at the behest of their power company donors.


‘A solar Saudi Arabia’

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/world/2017/03/31/while-trump-promotes-coal-other-countries-are-turn...


I wonder why the Saudi are doing that...and how the Saudi are paying for it....could it be they know the oil resource for fuel will be depleted sooner than we think?  Maybe they do know something we don't...seems likely to me.

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Honored Social Butterfly

Lets be clear tht Trump is not promoting coal, he is lying to coal miners. it is in his blood. 

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