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Honored Social Butterfly

What's Your Opinion ?

Would you be in favor of replacing Columbus Day with Juneteenth as a federal holiday ?

 

Silver Conversationalist

Columbus’s governance of Hispaniola could be brutal and tyrannical. Native islanders who didn’t collect enough gold could have their hands cut off, and rebel Spanish colonists were executed at the gallows. Colonists complained to the monarchy about mismanagement, and a royal commissioner dispatched to Hispaniola arrested Columbus in August 1500 and brought him back to Spain in chains. Although Columbus was stripped of his governorship, King Ferdinand not only granted the explorer his freedom but subsidized a fourth voyage.

 
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Even in his day Columbus was reviled by those who witnessed the atrocities he committed in the Caribbean. Ferdinand's pardon doesn't absolve Columbus, it just makes Ferdinand complicit. 
 
For those who served under Columbus to protest his cruelty and malfeasance to the king proves he was slime even for his day. Tear down the statues and rededicate the day. It's time we stopped honoring thieves planting flags and murderers carrying crosses.
 
 
 
 
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Social Butterfly

We never celebrate Columbus Day. And for some reason, Columbus Day is not one of the holidays that my husband's company recognizes. But neither is Veteran's Day, which I think is kind of strange.

 

 

Honored Social Butterfly

Columbus was worse than his "era."  He was so brutal he was taken back to Spain in chains for the atrocities he committed. He has his men kill thousands.  

Honored Social Butterfly


@ManicProgressive wrote:

Columbus was worse than his "era."  He was so brutal he was taken back to Spain in chains for the atrocities he committed. He has his men kill thousands.  


 

Yes, he was taken back in chains but King Ferdinand not only granted the explorer his freedom but subsidized a fourth voyage.

 

https://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-christopher-columbus 

 

I take such facts posted here with a grain of salt, but fact check them since much is innuendo clouded by personal biases.

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Well, we changed Lincoln's birthday to "President's day" to keep the south happy.  If we are trying to keep from appeasing a narrow group of people we need to start thinking about replacing religions holidays currently on the government calendar. 

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@Richva wrote:

Well, we changed Lincoln's birthday to "President's day" to keep the south happy.  If we are trying to keep from appeasing a narrow group of people we need to start thinking about replacing religions holidays currently on the government calendar. 


 

To the contrary, Lincoln's and Washington's Birthday was consolidated so that the nation could have a 3 day weekend.  

 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Presidents-Day 

 

Your regional bias is evident.

 

Further, which federal religious holidays should be replaced?  Only one could be called religious and that is Christmas Day.

 

https://www.zenefits.com/workest/the-small-business-owners-list-of-2020-federal-holidays/ 

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Honored Social Butterfly

If the only religious holiday recognized by the Federal government is a Christian one, I would call THAT the occasion of bias. Not my pointing out we should not have any 

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@Richva wrote:

If the only religious holiday recognized by the Federal government is a Christian one, I would call THAT the occasion of bias. Not my pointing out we should not have any 


Then perhaps you should make your complaint to the Federal government and perhaps to the local media.  Be sure to include your real name..I'm sure many would agree with you...not.  

 

 

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Not to worry.  In today's environment, I suspect people are already questioning the elevation of a single religion over the others and asking if we should consider rededicating it.

 

SOP.  As long as MY religion is the one benefitting, it's "tradition" or "history".  

 

Honored Social Butterfly

Columbus was one bad dude.   Besides slavery and torture, he liked to cut people's ears and noses off.  He nailed one kid's hand for taking fish from a trap.   And cut out a woman's tongue because she spoke badly of him.  And he was fine with sexual slavery, including that of girls as young as nine.   

 

So even if you "excuse" the fact the disease he and his crew brought with him wiped out the entire Taino population, and "excuse" the fact that slavery was a norm of the time (although he sent 500 enslaved people to Queen Isabella who was horrified and said any people found in the new lands were to be considered Spanish subjects, not slaves), he was still barbaric and sadistic toward other human beings.   He was, at one point, arrested for the atrocities he committed against indigenous people and against his own Spanish crew and settlers.

 

Honored Social Butterfly

Considering that Columbus was  a brutal exterminator of human life, I'd be OK with changing Columbus Day to Ground Hog Day .... or any other kind name that replaces someone we NEVER should have been honoring in the first place!!!

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Honored Social Butterfly

In regarding Columbus or any other historical figure they are being considered by today's standards, not in the context of their times. 

 

And yes Columbus was cruel to not only the Native Americans, but to members of his crew and to others.  But without a reference I have never heard that about Queen Isabella.  It wasn't only Columbus that was cruel to the Native Americans as they were worked to the death either in gold mines or plantations.  They were just not fit for hard work.  That is the reason for the slave traders taking advantage of buying Africans from other African natives for the "New World".

 

But back to Columbus, he did come across what was considered by Europeans a New World, revisionist history aside.  Unless none of our ancestors were European, one might say that his opening up an age of exploration is the reason a good majority of us is here.  Otherwise our 'grand' parents would never have met.  For that reason we owe Columbus.

 

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

In regarding Columbus or any other historical figure they are being considered by today's standards, not in the context of their times. 

 

 


This is very true.  Accepted behavior and morals of past eras will never hold up to today's standards.  Fifty... hundred years from now, people will look back on now and no doubt there will be occasions when the future generations will wonder what were we thinking?  No doubt, all of us have seen drastic changes in thinking in our own lifetimes.  The norm when we were born no longer is valid or acceptable.

 

That being said, I think federal holidays to any individual should be abolished.  No mortal is a saint.  As has been suggested,  I feel national holidays should be a celebration of the peoples, ALL the peoples, and events that have shaped the history and forward progress and growth of this country. 

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@MsStretch wrote:


This is very true.  Accepted behavior and morals of past eras will never hold up to today's standards.  Fifty... hundred years from now, people will look back on now and no doubt there will be occasions when the future generations will wonder what were we thinking?  No doubt, all of us have seen drastic changes in thinking in our own lifetimes.  The norm when we were born no longer is valid or acceptable.

 

That being said, I think federal holidays to any individual should be abolished.  No mortal is a saint.  As has been suggested,  I feel national holidays should be a celebration of the peoples, ALL the peoples, and events that have shaped the history and forward progress and growth of this country. 


Yes social behavior does change with the times...in modern times more than before no doubt because of faster communications.  I was born before the Second World War where we mostly received visual information via newsreels in movie theaters.  Today it is somewhat instantaneous via TV.  Events are in a good part affected by TV coverage.

 

Even presentation of history is dictated through today's standards, without context or standards of the time.  One of my ancestors was chased off land he inherited from his father because he was married to a Native American.   I inherited property from my father, yet my multi-racial marriage has not raised a stir.

 

I agree that holidays should be an inspiration for everyone, not just a certain group or about one individual with a few exceptions.  Columbus Day evolved through more and more states celebrating it.  It was a passive low key one, now today it is highly contentious because ethnic groups want to protest something and everyone wants something for themselves rather than everyone.  That is why we celebrate the Fourth of July...a day of freedom for everyone.

 

 

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

 

But back to Columbus, he did come across what was considered by Europeans a New World, revisionist history aside. 

Europeans came to North America hundreds of years before Columbus!

 

 

Unless none of our ancestors were European, one might say that his opening up an age of exploration is the reason a good majority of us is here. 

Otherwise our 'grand' parents would never have met. 

As many Americans my age, my grandparents met in Europe .... no thanks to Columbus!

 

It's ludicrous to assume that only Columbus could have landed here. Eventually, some other European explorer would have landed in what is now America.

 

 

For that reason we owe Columbus.

That's kinda like saying we owe Hitler for discovering severe brutal torture and efficient extermination of people!!!


 

DUMP TRUMP AND DITCH MITCH TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!!!
Honored Social Butterfly


@myexper wrote:

@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

 

But back to Columbus, he did come across what was considered by Europeans a New World, revisionist history aside. 

Europeans came to North America hundreds of years before Columbus!

Unless none of our ancestors were European, one might say that his opening up an age of exploration is the reason a good majority of us is here. 

Otherwise our 'grand' parents would never have met. 

As many Americans my age, my grandparents met in Europe .... no thanks to Columbus!

It's ludicrous to assume that only Columbus could have landed here. Eventually, some other European explorer would have landed in what is now America.

For that reason we owe Columbus.

That's kinda like saying we owe Hitler for discovering severe brutal torture and efficient extermination of people!!!



I had no doubt that some wouldn't read my post with their own bias.  My ancestors came here in the mid-1600s on my father's side, and in the late 1700's on the maternal side from different countries. I have traced their circumstance how both migrated to where my parents met.  If not for the settling of this continent they would never had met, or existed, if not for Columbus.

 

You say your grandparents met in Europe.  And your parents?  If they met here, then my post applies..they would have never met if Europeans had not settled this country.

 

Of course Vikings, etc, had landed here before Columbus for visits, but it was Columbus who started European exploration and settled these continents. 

 

The remark about Hitler has no connection with the discussion.  Besides perhaps you should research the tortures of the ancient world, especially that of the Romans who burned Christians alive.  

 

Your comment that eventually some other European explorer would have landed in what is now America is pure speculation since Columbus was the incentive to spark exploration.  

 

Denials was anticipated.   If someone went back in time and prevented Columbus making his journey to this hemisphere, this forum and the posters might not have existed.  The facts are that his journey opened up widespread exploration.

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

 

But back to Columbus, he did come across what was considered by Europeans a New World, revisionist history aside. 

Europeans came to North America hundreds of years before Columbus!

Unless none of our ancestors were European, one might say that his opening up an age of exploration is the reason a good majority of us is here. 

Otherwise our 'grand' parents would never have met. 

As many Americans my age, my grandparents met in Europe .... no thanks to Columbus!

It's ludicrous to assume that only Columbus could have landed here. Eventually, some other European explorer would have landed in what is now America.

For that reason we owe Columbus.

That's kinda like saying we owe Hitler for discovering severe brutal torture and efficient extermination of people!!!



I had no doubt that some wouldn't read my post with their own bias. 

No bias ... rather facts that negate what you'd like to believe!

 

My ancestors came here in the mid-1600s on my father's side, and in the late 1700's on the maternal side from different countries. I have traced their circumstance how both migrated to where my parents met.  If not for the settling of this continent they would never had met, or existed, if not for Columbus.

Non provable conclusion  ....

 

You say your grandparents met in Europe.  And your parents?  If they met here, then my post applies..they would have never met if Europeans had not settled this country.

Another non provable unsupported conclusion that makes no sense.

 

 

Of course Vikings, etc, had landed here before Columbus for visits,

Just "visits" ...?  How do you know that?

And Europeans like the Knights Templar escaped European persecution and established settlements in North America long before Columbus.

 

but it was Columbus who started European exploration

Wrong, the Vikings and Knights Templar started European exploration.

 

 

and settled these continents.

Wrong again .... The Knights Templar built "settlements" in what is now Canada.

 

The remark about Hitler has no connection with the discussion. 

When Columbus exhibited the same ruthless behavior as Hitler, it most certainly "connects with the discussion"!

 

 

Besides perhaps you should research the tortures of the ancient world, especially that of the Romans who burned Christians alive.

Yeah .... The Romans were also brutal and ruthless ... just like Columbus!

 

Your comment that eventually some other European explorer would have landed in what is now America is pure speculation

No .... Conclusion based on the historical fact that other Europeans arrived in North America hundreds of years before Columbus!

 

 

since Columbus was the incentive to spark exploration.

Wrong again ...... MONEY was the incentive to spark speculation!!!

 

Denials was anticipated.   If someone went back in time and prevented Columbus making his journey to this hemisphere, this forum and the posters might not have existed. 

Absurd .... Statues and holidays falsely honoring Columbus "would not have existed"

 

The facts are that his journey opened up widespread exploration.

No ....The facts are that Columbus engaged in brutal torture and mass killing of indigenous Americans .... slaughtering the REAL people who discovered America!!!


 

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Honored Social Butterfly


@myexper wrote:

No .... Conclusion based on the historical fact that other Europeans arrived in North America hundreds of years before Columbus!

 



There is speculation that Asians from China, etc also had visited the western coast of North and South America.  But they only VISITED.  There is evidence that the Vikings and others visited the Eastern coast of North America.  But they were here only temporarily.  

 

Apparently you want to turn this into a discussion about Hitler.  He isn't the topic.  I am aware about Hitler and watched the newsreels about his actions when young.

 

It stands to reason that if most of our ancestors would never had met and married if they had not emigrated to this country.   Your arguments about Knights Templar, etc, is only speculation based on scant evidence.  If they had established settlements here then where are they along with the names.  There is no doubt that Columbus sparked an age of exploration and settlement in this hemisphere.  None for Vikings. 

 

 

 

BYE

Honored Social Butterfly


@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

No .... Conclusion based on the historical fact that other Europeans arrived in North America hundreds of years before Columbus!

 



There is speculation that Asians from China, etc also had visited the western coast of North and South America.  But they only VISITED. 

Not when evidence suggests that they could have been the ancestors of today's indigenous Americans!

 

 

There is evidence that the Vikings and others visited the Eastern coast of North America.  But they were here only temporarily.  

Knights Templar symbols on building foundations, abandoned well walls and settlement foundations indicate otherwise Tex!

 

Of course based on your past posts it would be easier carrying on discussions with a fence post. 

An insulting personal attack!

 

Plus apparently you want to turn this into a discussion about Hitler. 

Nope .... I merely mentioned him in a comparison.

 

 

He isn't the topic. 

A straw man argument as I NEVER stated nor implied any such nonsense!

 

I am aware about Hitler and watched the newsreels about his actions when young.

Then you should recognize the similarities with Columbus!

 

 

It stands to reason that if most of our ancestors would never had met and married if they had not emigrated to this country. 

Speculation .... and nothing to do with the topic!

 

 

 Your arguments about Knights Templar, etc, is only speculation based on scant evidence. 

No .... historical evidence based on artifacts and settlement discoveries in Nova Scotia Canada.

 

 

If they had established settlements here then where are they along with the names. 

Nova Scotia Canada .... and "Nova Scotia' is the name .... derived from from "New Scotland" as coined by the Knights Templar.

 

There is no doubt that Columbus sparked an age of exploration and settlement in this hemisphere.

Columbus "sparked" the elimination of indigenous Americans .... NOTHING to be honored!

 

  None for Vikings.

Never said otherwise Tex! 

 

There is no doubt that you are here to engage in one of your endless, nonsensical discussions,

Wrong again .... I am here to negate the contrived disingenuous honoring of Columbus.

 

 


 

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@myexper wrote:

Nova Scotia Canada .... and "Nova Scotia' is the name .... derived from from "New Scotland" as coined by the Knights Templar.

 


 


Nova Scotia is Latin for “New Scotland”. The province was named by Sir William Alexander who was given the land by King James VI of Scotland in 1621.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/earth-sciences/geography/origins-canadas-geographical-names/origin-names-can... 

 

An official site of the Canadian government

 

Knights Templar symbols on building foundations, abandoned well walls and settlement foundations indicate otherwise 

 

Ok, What is your reference for that and where is those locations?

 

Torture was common in the Middle Ages up to and including the times of Columbus.  He wasn't alone in carrying on torture.  Even the Puritans in New England engaged in the practice to some extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methods_of_torture 

 

Again Hitler had nothing to do with Columbus.

 

But even the practice of the colonists in the New World of turning the natives into slaves was a practice of that time. 

 

Perhaps if you are going to insist that you are correct then probably should include references to your incorrect information.  Otherwise they are just your opinions.  You are the one challenging my postings.  

 

 

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@TxGrandpa2 wrote:

@myexper wrote:

Nova Scotia Canada .... and "Nova Scotia' is the name .... derived from from "New Scotland" as coined by the Knights Templar.

 


 


Nova Scotia is Latin for “New Scotland”. The province was named by Sir William Alexander who was given the land by King James VI of Scotland in 1621.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/earth-sciences/geography/origins-canadas-geographical-names/origin-names-can... 

 

An official site of the Canadian government

 

And per your very own reference  Tex..... It was called New Scotland (Nova Scotia) PRIOR to its official naming!

 

 

 

Knights Templar symbols on building foundations, abandoned well walls and settlement foundations indicate otherwise 

 

Ok, What is your reference for that and where is those locations?

Documentaries that included field excavations and information from files in Nova Scotia historical archives.

 

Torture was common in the Middle Ages up to and including the times of Columbus.  He wasn't alone in carrying on torture.  Even the Puritans in New England engaged in the practice to some extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methods_of_torture 

 

Does NOTHING to justify the torture inflicted by Columbus!

 

 

Again Hitler had nothing to do with Columbus.

Again, the similarities of Hitler's brutal torture and execution of people can indeed be identified with that of Columbus.

 

But even the practice of the colonists in the New World of turning the natives into slaves was a practice of that time.

Two wrongs don't make a right Tex!

 

Perhaps if you are going to insist that you are correct then probably should include references to your incorrect information. 

I only provide references to "correct information" Tex.

 

 

Otherwise they are just your opinions. 

We both know that no matter how many references I provide, they will never be enough for you!

 

You are the one challenging my postings.

As all misleading information should be!

 

 

 


 

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@myexper wrote:

 

We both know that no matter how many references I provide, they will never be enough for you!

 



How would anyone know since you have never provided any references to anything.  You might be surprised that I fact check anything you (or anyone) posts..

 

 

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I'm still looking for the moral pedestal our woke historians place themselves upon. 

 

I betcha it's blood stained


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I kinda curious how far back in time we deem people indigenous? or the time line for a finite moral argument? and who determines that? 

 

those poor neanderthals. 

 

"to the victor belong the spoils"  


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@Fishslayer777 wrote:

I kinda curious how far back in time we deem people indigenous? or the time line for a finite moral argument? and who determines that? 

 

those poor neanderthals. 

 

"to the victor belong the spoils"  


Someone who is knowledgeable of European history would note that the original (after Neanderthals)Celts was displaced by the Romans and Germanic tribes.  The Brits was displaced by Vikings and Anglo-Saxons.

 

Displacement goes back to ancient times.  Look how the Europeans displaced the Native Americans....they weren't exactly innocent in the way they took over the country.  The Native Americans were actually massacred in the process...Columbus had no part in that.

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@Fishslayer777 wrote:

I kinda curious how far back in time we deem people indigenous? or the time line for a finite moral argument? and who determines that? 

 

those poor neanderthals. 


If Columbus existed in their time, he would likely slaughter them as well!

 

And certain posters here would give Columbus credit for "discovering" fire and the wheel!

 

 

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Honored Social Butterfly

There it is... a Hitler reference.... like clock work, Godwin's law at work. 

 

 


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@Fishslayer777 wrote:

There it is... a Hitler reference.... like clock work, Godwin's law at work. 

 

 


A law that consists of an evasion from "When the shoe fits ..... "!

 

 

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Fish,  If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks a duck

It's probably a duck.

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