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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 11 of 24

@mickstuder wrote:

Democrats are unlikely to obtain the testimony and documents they seek using court proceedings or tricky parliamentary maneuvers.

 

And - they already know it

 

The House Democrats have their work cut out for them. It’s become inescapably, ineluctably clear:

 

The Trump administration isn’t going to comply with, acquiesce in or submit to congressional requests. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin won’t turn over President Donald Trump’s tax returns. Attorney General William Barr won’t give Congress the unredacted Mueller report, contempt charge or no contempt charge. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross won’t testify any more about the census citizenship question. Former White House Counsel Don McGahn won’t produce, for now, either testimony or documents.

 

Trump himself, expansive as ever, has declared that his administration will resist “all” congressional subpoenas. If a third party, like Deutsche Bank, wants to comply with a House subpoena, the Trumps will sue the bank. No cooperation, nothing, nada.

 

So, what do Democrats do now? What strategies have the best chance of eliciting or compelling the testimony and documents they need for oversight, impeachment or both?

 

Plenty of experts are offering advice, with suggestions ranging from the straightforward to the baroque.

 

But the laws governing this executive-legislative dispute aren’t black-and-white — which means that the other side is always going to have a plausible argument to present to a court, which, in turn, means that magic legal slam dunks are available.

 

For one thing, a congressional contempt citation like the one the House Judiciary Committee issued for Barr on Wednesday is evanescent. The process is almost comically inefficient, and requires the contempt citation to be eventually approved by the full House. The citation also expires at the end of the Congress that issued it. When a new Congress is seated, it can start again. In contrast, the executive branch marches on as an enterprise, legally speaking, from one presidency to the next. In a power struggle between president and Congress, this is a big advantage for the executive.

 

Alternatively, the House itself can file a civil suit, asking a court to enforce its citation — or otherwise order compliance. This is the proverbial long slog. Such proceedings are almost guaranteed to drag on for months or years.

 

The House can also impeach, or at least prepare to impeach, either Trump himself or his Senate-confirmed appointees. Some people favor this tactic because it’s a way to establish a clear legislative purpose — one a court would respect — to justify a demand for documents and testimony.

 

But this need for “legislative purpose” shows the larger problem for House Democrats seeking executive branch compliance: None of the laws involved are unambiguous enough to keep the dispute out of lengthy court proceedings.

 

This problem is demonstrated in the current fight over Trump’s tax returns. The Internal Revenue Code states the Treasury secretary “shall furnish ... any [tax] return” that the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee requests. “Shall” leaves no wiggle room. Because of this provision, the tax return fight is the one, among all the current House v Trump clashes, in which Congress has the clearest statutory authority. Even here, however, where House Democrats can point to a specific statute, their authority is restricted by the requirement that it be used only for legitimate legislative purposes.

 

The House Ways and Means Committee's request for Trump’s tax returns has cited the legislative purpose of exercising oversight of IRS performance in auditing presidential tax information. It sounds reasonable. But, according to Mnuchin, Justice Department lawyers have asserted that the committee is actually singling out a particular president in ways that constitute presidential harassment rather than legitimate legislative inquiry. This, too, sounds reasonable.

 

There is yet another way to enforce a contempt citation, which is that the House can send its own officers to arrest and detain a noncompliant witness.

Apparently they are unaware of THAT. Perhaps you should sit them down for a nice long TALK.

Source - https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ag-barr-s-contempt-charge-won-t-force-trump-give-ncna1003291

 

 

 

 


 

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 12 of 24

@mickstuder wrote:

@rk9152 wrote:

 

 


Your entire screed seems based on the theory that the sole function of Congress is to undo the 2016 election.

 

As to "taking care of the base". Do you truly believe that our porous borders are solely owned by some "base". Do you truly believe that all of those benefiting from the improved job numbers are part of some mysterious "base".


My Entire Screed Was Meant To Illustrate

 

1. Congress has Oversight Responsibility over the President and his Administration

You mentioned financial crimes. Are there no law enforcement agencies and/or the IRS with that responsibility. Should the Congress really exercise oversight on them doing their jobs?

 

2. When the Republicans controlled the House - Trump gave House Committees over 1 Million Documents - including the Personal Texts between Lisa Page and PeterStrzokk

That has no meaning unless the documents have the same legal protections as the redacted parts of the report.

 

BTW - Page &Strzokk were never charged with any Criminal Wrongdoing - never Indicted for a Crime

And there's the shame.

3. US Presidents don't get to Decide if the Congress is Republican we will work with them sometimes - but if any part of the Congress is Democratic we can refuse anything & everything they Request because they are the Opposing Party

O.K.?????? Are you talking about the reacted stuff or Cabinet officials wanted for a TV production??

BTW - can anyone find thatParlimentaryy Procedure or the supporting Clause Statute or Rule in the US Constitution - NO - Didn't think so - the Founding Fathers envisioned a President who would try to become King - that why they created a Constitution with Laws about reining in a Criminal President especially when as now we have One Branch of Congress who is acting like part of the Presidents Administration not a Co-equal Branch of Government

Maybe the Dems did think of all that. Maybe you should send some emails explaining all that.

 

BTW - co-equal in terms of government operation. Not to try to undo an election.

 


 

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 13 of 24

    Ignoring Constitutional Laws ( Checks & Balances / Emoluments Clause ) and lacking Morality have become the GOP norm !!

    Your grandchildren will be real proud in History Class.

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 14 of 24

Democrats are unlikely to obtain the testimony and documents they seek using court proceedings or tricky parliamentary maneuvers.

 

And - they already know it

 

The House Democrats have their work cut out for them. It’s become inescapably, ineluctably clear:

 

The Trump administration isn’t going to comply with, acquiesce in or submit to congressional requests. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin won’t turn over President Donald Trump’s tax returns. Attorney General William Barr won’t give Congress the unredacted Mueller report, contempt charge or no contempt charge. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross won’t testify any more about the census citizenship question. Former White House Counsel Don McGahn won’t produce, for now, either testimony or documents.

 

Trump himself, expansive as ever, has declared that his administration will resist “all” congressional subpoenas. If a third party, like Deutsche Bank, wants to comply with a House subpoena, the Trumps will sue the bank. No cooperation, nothing, nada.

 

So, what do Democrats do now? What strategies have the best chance of eliciting or compelling the testimony and documents they need for oversight, impeachment or both?

 

Plenty of experts are offering advice, with suggestions ranging from the straightforward to the baroque.

 

But the laws governing this executive-legislative dispute aren’t black-and-white — which means that the other side is always going to have a plausible argument to present to a court, which, in turn, means that magic legal slam dunks are available.

 

For one thing, a congressional contempt citation like the one the House Judiciary Committee issued for Barr on Wednesday is evanescent. The process is almost comically inefficient, and requires the contempt citation to be eventually approved by the full House. The citation also expires at the end of the Congress that issued it. When a new Congress is seated, it can start again. In contrast, the executive branch marches on as an enterprise, legally speaking, from one presidency to the next. In a power struggle between president and Congress, this is a big advantage for the executive.

 

Alternatively, the House itself can file a civil suit, asking a court to enforce its citation — or otherwise order compliance. This is the proverbial long slog. Such proceedings are almost guaranteed to drag on for months or years.

 

The House can also impeach, or at least prepare to impeach, either Trump himself or his Senate-confirmed appointees. Some people favor this tactic because it’s a way to establish a clear legislative purpose — one a court would respect — to justify a demand for documents and testimony.

 

But this need for “legislative purpose” shows the larger problem for House Democrats seeking executive branch compliance: None of the laws involved are unambiguous enough to keep the dispute out of lengthy court proceedings.

 

This problem is demonstrated in the current fight over Trump’s tax returns. The Internal Revenue Code states the Treasury secretary “shall furnish ... any [tax] return” that the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee requests. “Shall” leaves no wiggle room. Because of this provision, the tax return fight is the one, among all the current House v Trump clashes, in which Congress has the clearest statutory authority. Even here, however, where House Democrats can point to a specific statute, their authority is restricted by the requirement that it be used only for legitimate legislative purposes.

 

The House Ways and Means Committee's request for Trump’s tax returns has cited the legislative purpose of exercising oversight of IRS performance in auditing presidential tax information. It sounds reasonable. But, according to Mnuchin, Justice Department lawyers have asserted that the committee is actually singling out a particular president in ways that constitute presidential harassment rather than legitimate legislative inquiry. This, too, sounds reasonable.

 

There is yet another way to enforce a contempt citation, which is that the House can send its own officers to arrest and detain a noncompliant witness.

 

Source - https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ag-barr-s-contempt-charge-won-t-force-trump-give-ncna1003291

 

 

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 15 of 24

@MsStretch wrote:

Could be that Nancy is waiting for Donnie to dig his own grave.  Let him do all the work.

 

Pelosi says Trump is ‘becoming self-impeachable’


According to the US Constitution - Pelosi doesn't have that choice - she is bound by the Oath she Swore - oh & she should be very familiar with that Oath - she's been taking the same one over & over in the House every year for almost 30 years continuously

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 16 of 24

Could be that Nancy is waiting for Donnie to dig his own grave.  Let him do all the work.

 

Pelosi says Trump is ‘becoming self-impeachable’

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 17 of 24

@rk9152 wrote:

@mickstuder wrote:

@Fishslayer777 wrote:
When hate is the dem party platform, I suspect nothing can get done. However... Imagine the dem angst knowing president Trump is the most productive president ever... and every apocalyptic prediction has never come to pass.

Fake news is strong with this one. Incase some personal reflection is inorder for dems...

Angst: a feeling of deep anxiety or dread, typically an unfocused one about the human condition or the state of the world in general.

500 Plus Republican & Democrats - All Current & Former Federal Prosecutors/Senior DOJ Officials - have reviewed the Publicly Available Investigative Material from the Mueller Report

 

Over 500 Bi-partisan Legal Professionals have determined there are - not One - not Two - not Three- but multiple dozens of Obstruction of Justice - Financial & Conspiracy Crimes committed by Trump & members of his staff & family

 

They submitted a signed Public Letter affirming their conclusions & just about begging the US House of Representatives to do their jobs

 

Pelosi & her Sycophants Refuse - citing Political Calculations

 

So you're totally wrong in your conclusions

 

500+  Federal Lawyers felt so outraged by the inaction of the Congress - they felt obligated as Patriotic Americans to once again demand Congress do its job

 

It has little to do with Hatred & much more to do with the Rule of Law and Justice & Patriotism

 

 Mussolini - Hitler - Khadafy - Hussein - all at some point did something that made their Country look good - that improved the Lives of their supporters

 

Dictators dont just wake up everyday & kill everyone - they take care of their BASE - just like Trump is

 

 


Your entire screed seems based on the theory that the sole function of Congress is to undo the 2016 election.

 

As to "taking care of the base". Do you truly believe that our porous borders are solely owned by some "base". Do you truly believe that all of those benefiting from the improved job numbers are part of some mysterious "base".


My Entire Screed Was Meant To Illustrate

 

1. Congress has Oversight Responsibility over the President and his Administration

 

2. When the Republicans controlled the House - Trump gave House Committees over 1 Million Documents - including the Personal Texts between Lisa Page and Peter Strzok

 

BTW - Page & Strzok were never charged with any Criminal Wrongdoing - never Indicted for a Crime

 

3. US Presidents don't get to Decide if the Congress is Republican we will work with them sometimes - but if any part of the Congress is Democratic we can refuse anything & everything they Request because they are the Opposing Party

 

BTW - can anyone find that Parlimentary Procedure or the supporting Clause Statute or Rule in the US Constitution - NO - Didn't think so - the Founding Fathers envisioned a President who would try to become King - that why they created a Constitution with Laws about reining in a Criminal President especially when as now we have One Branch of Congress who is acting like part of the Presidents Administration not a Co-equal Branch of Government

 

 

( " China if You're Listening - Get Trumps Tax Returns " )

" )
" - Anonymous

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 18 of 24

@Fishslayer777 wrote:
When hate is the dem party platform, I suspect nothing can get done. However... Imagine the dem angst knowing president Trump is the most productive president ever... and every apocalyptic prediction has never come to pass.

Fake news is strong with this one. Incase some personal reflection is inorder for dems...

Angst: a feeling of deep anxiety or dread, typically an unfocused one about the human condition or the state of the world in general.

I go to church every Sunday, therefore I don't think that need any more preaching.  Between hate and forgiveness I am getting tired of seeing those two words bandied about in posts in this message board.

Only the ones that inspire and love those two words want to confuse and accuse others .

NO one hates anyone, here, and no one needs to forgive anyone here.

This is a political message board and we all have opinions and we all disagree. so I don't need to be subjected to a  pulpit of religious hogwash when I come here. And to answer to topic.
The answer is very simple, We don't have the mechanisms to act. we cannot do anything when one of those clowns decides that they don't want to comply with the laws. and that is the real truth.

Instead of criticisms  we better start thinking in having the proper laws to act.

no name
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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 19 of 24

@mickstuder wrote:

@Fishslayer777 wrote:
When hate is the dem party platform, I suspect nothing can get done. However... Imagine the dem angst knowing president Trump is the most productive president ever... and every apocalyptic prediction has never come to pass.

Fake news is strong with this one. Incase some personal reflection is inorder for dems...

Angst: a feeling of deep anxiety or dread, typically an unfocused one about the human condition or the state of the world in general.

500 Plus Republican & Democrats - All Current & Former Federal Prosecutors/Senior DOJ Officials - have reviewed the Publicly Available Investigative Material from the Mueller Report

 

Over 500 Bi-partisan Legal Professionals have determined there are - not One - not Two - not Three- but multiple dozens of Obstruction of Justice - Financial & Conspiracy Crimes committed by Trump & members of his staff & family

 

They submitted a signed Public Letter affirming their conclusions & just about begging the US House of Representatives to do their jobs

 

Pelosi & her Sycophants Refuse - citing Political Calculations

 

So you're totally wrong in your conclusions

 

500+  Federal Lawyers felt so outraged by the inaction of the Congress - they felt obligated as Patriotic Americans to once again demand Congress do its job

 

It has little to do with Hatred & much more to do with the Rule of Law and Justice & Patriotism

 

 Mussolini - Hitler - Khadafy - Hussein - all at some point did something that made their Country look good - that improved the Lives of their supporters

 

Dictators dont just wake up everyday & kill everyone - they take care of their BASE - just like Trump is

 

 


Your entire screed seems based on the theory that the sole function of Congress is to undo the 2016 election.

 

As to "taking care of the base". Do you truly believe that our porous borders are solely owned by some "base". Do you truly believe that all of those benefiting from the improved job numbers are part of some mysterious "base".

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Re: What Happens When Congress Refuses 2 Do It's Job

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Message 20 of 24
Alternate realities are tough to manage and be so creative everyday, but so far so good.... right?

Libs are so dense they have gravitational pull
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